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BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids......
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:03 PM I'm going to start a separate thread re: The Italians. Those comments don't belong in this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Bobert Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM Now, now, now, GUEST... Not *all* church goers, please... Just the high percentage of them that thinks by just attending that they have some devine permission to screw up... More later, late fir, ahhhh..... church... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:27 AM OOOOOOOH! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:50 AM Disenfranchise church goers. Get your rocks off on that one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:39 AM Oh, Guest, you're giving me dirty little thrills.... Wait a moment- EQUALITY! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:36 AM In theory great, but you have to look at the society that they would be rehabilitated in to. I'm going to say an even dirtier word --- EDUCATION . |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM Oh no....i'm going to say it...i apologise in advance, folks. I'm going to say a dirty word.....here it comes..... REHABILITATION! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:06 AM I think any fair minded person would have to admit, you've got something wrong in the USA. All these murders, all these serial killers. The death penalty has you in worse trouble than other countries - it not working as a deterrent, and its fairly sick making to see blokes in suits arguing to stop the working heart of another human being. You would seem to need to think again. Find something that works and easy on the sensibility. You have a whole country full of universities, full of smart people - they could work something out. Best wishes on your quest Big Al Whittle |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Mar 05 - 05:59 AM Unfortunately the lady herself is saying that she was deliberately ambushed with no sounds or warning shots - 400 bullets struck the car - she was carrying information that she says is detrimental to the USA... more conspiracies, I see... Wonder how long now before the Italian Politicians bend to the local popular pressure to leave Iraq now? Well, the British had many years to get used to that sort of situation in Ireland, while US money was being channelled to the IRA - the US troops are in comparison poorly trained for the sort of situation they now find themselves in - not really their fault I agree! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: kendall Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:19 PM Trigger happy? I believe any of us would be too if faced with the tactics these people are up against in Iraq. At least in a conventional war you can easily identify the enemy. Over there, you are surrounded by friend and foe who all look alike. They asked for it when they refused to stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM DougR, I'll dig out some references tomorrow. For now I think I can say without fear of contradiction that for murder and rape the US is number one in the developed world. And the last time I checked, the US murder rate was rising, while the rates in some other countries (already lower than America's of course) are falling. Certainly this is the case in Germany and Japan. Most such countries don't have capital punishment, and again I think (but I'm not certain) that Germany and Japan are both in this category. The US, as I have said, has a higher proportion of its population in prison than any other country.The UK imprisons a greater proportion of its population than any other country in Europe, but is still a long way behind the US. Until recently the UK still had capital punishment available for a small number of specific and extremely rare crimes, but has now abolished it completely. And no-one has been executed in the UK since 1965. (Statistical evidence gathered before and after confirmed that the death penalty had little if any deterrent value.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:07 PM The news as it first arrived here convinced me that all were killed. It now clearly states that she (the journalist) survived with a shell fragment in her shoulder and is being treated in a Military Hospital, so she will doubtless be able to tell us whether she thought the car was going to stop at the checkpoint as the US soldiers were requesting. The Italian Secret Agent who was killed, died while shielding her with his body - a real hero who will be missed by his family. I find it unbelievable that Italian Secret Service Agents (who would be familiar with the US forces trigger-happy reputation) would even think of NOT stopping when asked by such uniformed forces! I do hope that the families of those soldiers of friendly forces (and those innocent civilians) strafed by pill-popping US pilots are feeling properly grateful now too.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: DougR Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM "The most stable countries on earch jail many fewer people than the US (and the UK). They manage without capital punishment in any shape or form, and they have much lower rates of murder and other crime," - Peter K. (Fionn) What countries are these, Peter? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM So gnu thinks the death penalty should be applied only where guilt is established "beyond a shadow of a doubt." But gnu, surely no-one has ever been legally executed in the US without some court having established (however mistakenly) that the guy was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? Maybe you just mean the cases where there's really REALLY no shadow of doubt? At least LWOP allows for mistakes to be remedied after a fashion. But if Kendall thinks LWOP is a more Christian remedy than execution, I think he might be mistaken. America already imprisons a greater proportion of its population than any country on earth. Is he really calling for more prisons? And anyway, doesn't Christian philosophy allow for forgiveness? Especially in America, I would have thought, where a drunken lout can get himself elected president, if he only Finds The Lord. The fundamental problem is that American justice falls over itself to accommodate revenge, whereas most countries in the developed world strive to get revenge out of the equation. Those who thirst for revenge are rarely sated, anyway. Even the most barbaric, cocked-up executions of the type at which the US excels, seldom bring the satisfaction and closure that's hoped for. American justice is, in fact, a national disgrace. (And British justice is nearly as bad.) It may be very macho to ignore the causes of crime; to call for harsh punishment - why not go back to jailing kids for stealing bread? - and to shed no tears for the wrongly punished innocent. But it does not work. The most stable countries on earth jail many fewer people than the US (and the UK). They manage without capital punishment in any shape or form, and they have much lower rates of murder and other crime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 05 Mar 05 - 10:30 AM fool: there's going to be an investigation re the shooting of the car with the Italian journalist. The reports I have heard mentioned ONE death and that the vehicle made no appearance of heeding demands to stop at a mil. checkpoint. Maybe it'll be less fun for your thread contribution but since the facts will come out let's wait for them, for a change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: jeffp Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:26 AM Well, Auggie-poo (you see, I can indulge in adolescent name-calling too! But I'll stop that piece of immaturity now. I suggest you do the same and rely on the strength of your arguments) if you haven't seen it, you just haven't been paying attention. Perhaps you can cite some occasions where someone sentence to life without parole has been released early. And Sorcha, the instances you cite don't really apply to this argument do they? If you shoot somebody while they are attempting to assault you the criminal justice system isn't involved in the actions. And if your husband is a good cop, he will only kill a suspect if he has no other choice. Ask him if that isn't true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:28 AM Ah, dear, while it's a good thing for the USA to want to stop killing US kids, now the trigger happy grunts in Iraq (kids mostly!) have killed some unarmed Italians, Secret Service guys and the Italian Journalist they helped rescue from being recently kidnapped.... I also watched live on TV during the 'war' the trigger happy scared young grunts shoot up a civilian car, and each other at the same time .... and the authorities whitewash it... So now George has promised a thorough |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 05 Mar 05 - 12:42 AM Kendall I refuse to take responsibility for the acts committed by others leading to their incarceration. I'm to blame? Like hell. They are, pure and simple. And Jeffyp, yes I've heard of life without parole. The problem is I rarely see it carried out, even when it is the original sentance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: kendall Date: 04 Mar 05 - 04:55 PM I didn't say we should be a Christian society. Not as we know it now because it is anything but! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: John Hardly Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:07 PM You're confusing me, Kendall. SO we should be a Christian society? SO how does that line you up iwth BillD and Amos and Don Firth who, in all the other threads, are spending LOTS of bandwidth expalining why Christians should not be allowed influence our government. ...is a puzzlement. Curiously, it is a Christian organization that is leading the way in trying to institute a prison reform that would substitute restitution for institutionalizing criminals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:39 PM Why not let out the dope smokers and lock up the murderers? No? Didn't think so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: kendall Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:35 PM We claim to be a Christian society but you would never know it by the screams for someones life! The way I see it, if we would stop yelling, "NOT IN MY BACK YARD", and "THATS TOO EXPENSIVE" every time the proposal for a new prison is raised, we would put more of them away. As it is, they let the less violent ones out to make room for the really bad ones. The hell of it is, the ones they let out have learned how to beat the system while they WERE in! And, eventually, they go back as bad guys. Who's to blame? We have all heard the expression, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", but it doesn't really sink in. Whose to blame? WE ARE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:55 AM John Malvo is a pure waste of space. I see no constitutional cause served by guaranteeing his continuing to draw breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:41 AM Ever hear of life without parole? Kinda sets your straw man on fire doesn't it? BTW, that's what John Malvo is serving. He won't get out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM Gee jeffyp, I hope when they let the poor darlings out after 10 or 20 years, they all move onto your street, or better yet, next door to your daughter and her kids. I don't think The State taking a life is a good idea, but the trouble is that the court system in this country simply will not keep most of the incorrigibles locked up for life. Eventually, no matter what they've done, they're back out, and if you believe you can rehab most of these monsters and then reintroduce them into society without a signifigant chance of negative consequences descending upon additional innocents, then you're either very young, very isolated or very naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Sorcha Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:58 PM IMO, it's not about deterring, it's about stopping known ones. Try breaking into MY house and or raping me. I'll shoot yer arse if I can. Or Mr will get you later. You want Ted Bundy or Jeff Dauhmer in YOUR neighborhood? I sure don't. We have DNA testing now. Use it. Damn near fool proof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:38 PM Heard a very interesting talk by a legal psychologist on the juvenile justice system, and one point was made that around the turn of the last (19th to 20th) century there was a shift in adults' view of children, from economic benefits to precious things to be adored. Maybe that was the beginning of the end? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: gnu Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM I'm not talking about someone that was incensed by some act of another, however shallow in anyone's opinion. On that, we agree... no death penalty. I'm talkng about someone who pulled the trigger on people he didn't know, had never met, had no problem whatsoever with. He killed without reason and without remorse. And it was proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt". Hang him high. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:27 PM Gotta run, John. We can take this up tomorrow if you like. I doubt if we'll change each others minds though. I just don't think killing people is generally a good idea no matter who is doing it. Exceptions for defense in clear and present danger of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:25 PM Apparently, you accept it as a reasonable price to pay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: John Hardly Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM It isn't about killing innocent people. Nobody would be for that.... ....well, except for murderers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM I seriously doubt that killing innocent people is a proper punishment for a better society. Failing to consider the possibility of error is simply irresponsible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: John Hardly Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM It's not a rationalization. It's a pragmatic reality. Life is full of hard choices and most of 'em don't let you decide to do nothing. If there is truth to the notion that it helps society value life more, then to decide to do nothing costs more lives just because we fear that there's a possibility that we might make an error. So we can't decide whether capital punishment is a proper punishment based on the possibility that the judgement that leads to it might be in error -- not if it's the proper punishment for a better society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM they don't care anymore |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM Rationalize that to the innocents that you kill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: John Hardly Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM You don't make it infallible. But there is a huge breadth of functional possibility between "infallible" and "totally incapable of meting out justice because it might make a mistake". If the issue is always argued from the extreme ends, or the exceptions, the grand practical will forever be overlooked or hamstrung. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,jeffp Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM So how do you make the criminal justice system infallible? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: John Hardly Date: 03 Mar 05 - 01:24 PM "This option of course allows reversal in the case of mistaken conviction" Well, not actually a "reversal". The time served will never be returned.... ....and though this seems like a wise measure, if the measure of whether a punishment/sentence is just is based on the possibility that it might be meted in error, we would never be able to have a justice system that held a negative consequence for wrong. There could always be an error in the judgement. If the punishment is just then you execute the punishment. If it is not just then you don't execute the punishment. If there is a possibility that the system that determines guilt or innocence is wrong you correct that, not the punishment. An interesting psychological effect -- I've read that when a child abuse victim never sees any form of justice meted out to the perpetrator of the horror through which they've lived, they have a MUCH greater tendency to 1. Falsely assume their own guilt in the abuse, and 2. carry on the abuse to a new generation or a new victim. Conversely, when the victim of the abuse sees society punish the perpetrator in a meaningful way, they are far more likely to break the cycle. Though it seems somewhat counter-inuitive -- when society proves that it believes in the value of life by collectively proving, by capital punishment, that they will not tolerate the anti-social activity of murder, society as a whole has a raised, not lowered sense of the community's evaluation of life. And further, it illustrates to the larger community that it values innocent life when it shows what happens to the guilty. Right now, conversely, we have chosen to illustrate to society that we value the life of John Malvo(sp) much more than we value the lives of his victims. One reason why capital punishment does not seem to register a statistical deterent effect is that, 1. the immediate deterent effect is ignored (it is discounted that the perp himself will not murder again), and 2. (and more importantly) capital punishment is not meted out in either a timely, or an even-handed manner. If we were able to make justice faster, and we were able to keep some people from being able to dodge the system with better lawyers, I'm betting that we would begin to see an improved statistical evidence for capital punishment as a deterent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: kendall Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:42 PM How can we take the life of ANY person just because they took someone els'e life? What is the difference between them and us? That's not justice, that's revenge. "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord" Every prison and jail in this country is full to overflowing. They serve only as warehouses and training camps for future hard core criminals. Lock them up for life, throw the key away and build more prisons. Or, you could get them to break into my house in the night... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM Why do people think that the only alternative is release? The usual alternative is life in prison without the possibility of parole, i.e., permanent separation from society. This option of course allows reversal in the case of mistaken conviction, which is not available after execution is it? Fact: last year over 100 prisoners were released from death row after it was discovered that for various reasons they were wrongfully convicted and were innocent. How many of those executed were also wrongfully convicted? We will never know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM yeah, it goes against common sense to leave the young and crazy ones alive. They're the very ones hanging will be most likely to deter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:32 AM I can't help wondering, if hanging is such a good deterrent, why doesn't it deter? Quite easy, Eagle Wing. No one commits crimes expecting to be caught! I am pretty much anti capital punishment and the arguments about deterents and justice do little for me. The only one that logic dictates I must agree with is if you hang 'em they can't do it again. If you hang the wrong one occasionaly at least you have saved more innocent lives than you have taken. This would apply across age groups and, in fact, proves to be more true of youngsters than those in their latter years. If a teenage murderer is released after, say, 15 years in prison he or she is still a young person. Say 30. That leaves them another 40 years to commit another murder before their alloted 3 score and 10. After all they have done it before and are therefore predisposed. If, however, I was to bump off the bloke down the street who revs his car up at 7am on Sunday morning I would not be out until I was 67. leaving only 3 years to do it again. The youngster has therefore 13.333r times more chance to murder again than me. Hang the young buggers is what I say. Leave us old uns alone. Makes much more sense to me. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Donuel Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:06 AM When something goes right its good to admit it. However we are now setting a precedent in a Federal Court in DC to admit testimony obtained during torture to prosecute US citizens. It is nice we do not officialy execute kids but it seems to me to be canceled out by allowing "confessions" from the result of torture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: EagleWing Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:29 AM I can't help wondering, if hanging is such a good deterrent, why doesn't it deter? (And how do you apologise to someone who gets hung, when it is later discovered that they were nowhere near the scene of the crime at the time?) Frank L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: robomatic Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:59 AM This goes against the writings of one of my favorite sci-fi authors, R A Lafferty, who advocated that in advanced elementary school education, the most unmanageable of sixth graders be hanged in full view of the class. Of course this occurred on Camiroi, an advanced planet sharing Earth's orbit on the other side of the sun. They claimed it worked wonders in keeping the kids under control. As to the US Supreme Court Ruling, I think it came from a different planet, too. I liked O'Connor's opinion the best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: DougR Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:36 AM Geeze, it sure would be nice if our "kids" would assure us they wouldn't kill us. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Kaleea Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:54 PM It used to be 21. Now it's 18. When did that happen? Did I blink? Not the logic of the American people--logic of US politicians! How many years can gang bangers get away with murder/rape/armed robbery/etc. without fear of being punished as an adult? Quote from 17 year old murderer in courtroom: "Ain't nuthin they can do t' me, cuz I'm only 17!" Things that make you go "hmmmmmmm . . ." So what ever happened to the concept of 'rehabilitation'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:29 PM I just had a feeling that despite the title, this wasn't going to be a Pro-Life thread. Lets see, you can kill 'em from conception thru the first nine months even tho they did nothing wrong,, then regardless of what they do wrong, you can't kill 'em again till they're over the age of 18 or 21? Sounds like typically clear American logic to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit Killin' Its Kids...... From: Sorcha Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:25 PM I gotta be with gunu here. NOT sure I agree. Depends on the age of the kid, I guess. And what he did. I've known some pretty nasty kids. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US to Quit KIllin' Its Kids...... From: gnu Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM Excuse me. That was not politically corect. Perhaps I was too brash. We should, of course, provide him with professional councelling to determine what could have brought him to participate in such a travesty. Upon learning the social injustices and deprivation which lead him to the lowliest of lows, we could seek to reconstruct our society such that these evils no longer are a temptaion to our naive youths who turn to evil as an expression of their angst. And then hang the fucker. |
