turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the

Subject: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,lyrics??
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 02:08 AM

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:54 AM

I presume that you are looking for the a song with that lyric.

Though I haven't found that specific song or songs, there's a number of African American secular slave songs that refer to 'hoe cake'..

For those folks who are familiar with African American hip-hop languaging, it should be mentioned staight up that 'ho cakes' has nothing whatsoever to do with the referent 'ho' which means 'whore' ;O))

It's my understanding that the term 'hoe cakes' is derived from the fact that a hoe garden utensil was used to hold the bread [cake] in the fire until it was cooked. I recall reading a reference to this somewhere, but where I can't recall..

From my recollection [faulty as it may be] I would say that 'hoe cake' was similar to-if not the same as-johnny cake [and I beleieve that term comes from 'journey cake' i.e. cake or bead to eat while traveling].

Darryl Cumber Dance's 2002 compilation "For My People, 400 years of African American Folklore" {W.W. Norton and company} includes recipes for spoonbread and cornbread/corn pone.. These terms may be similar to or the same as 'hoe cake'. Cornbread/cornpone is described as
"..thickish,unsweetened mimimalist flat fried bread..While regular oven-baked, or stovetop, cornbraead could be split and buttered, cornpones were cooked without any added sweetener and without any added fat" [For My People, p. 447]

In contrast, the somewhat more familiar term "shortnin' bread" was a much sweeter. In her 1925 book "On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs", Dorothy Scarborough gives this description:
"...'shortn'n bread' or 'cracklin' bread' as it is often called is considered a delicacy among colored people. It is a kind of bread made very rich by having bacon gravy." [Folklore Associates edition, 1963, p. 151]

Here's one song in the Scarborough book that includes a reference to 'hoe cake':

SWEET MAMA
Sweet Mama, treetop tall,
Won't you turn your damper down?*   
I smell hoecake burning
Dey done burnt some brown.
I'm laid mah head
On de rilroad track.
I thought about Mama
An' I drugged it back.
Sweet Mama, treetop tall,
Won't you turn your damper down?

*BTW, Scarborough writes " Sweet Mama is a term addressed to a lover, not a maternal parent, and the oblique reference to a damper doubtless comments on the dark lady's warm temper." [p.262, same book cited].

'Damper' also refers to cooking, but I believe that Scarborough is correct that the person speaking [actually singing] is asking his woman to 'cool it' [using one definition of that more contemporary African American phrase that actually originates in West Africa].

Sterling Stuckey's 1987 book "Slave Culture" {Oxford University Press} includes this Juba/Kunnering {John Canoe]** song that mentions hoe cake:

My massa am a white man; juba!
Oh! missus am a lady, juba!
De children am de honey-pod, juba! juba!
Krismas come but once a year, juba!
Juba! Juba! O, ye juba!
De darkeys lub de hoe-cake, juba
Take de 'quarter' for to buy it, juba!
check 'him longm you white folks, juba! juba!
Krismas come but once a year, juba!
Juba! Juba! O, ye juba!
{p. 71, "Slave Culture"]

** In this context, the word 'juba' is a song refrain used in Kunnering and other Black secular slave songs..'Kunnering " itself is a blend of West African African religious processional traditions such as those associated with Egungun, and European mummering traditions. IMO, the phrase 'John Canoe' does not refer to an African prince of that name as is so often given, but is a folk etymology construct of the West African term 'Yonkannu'.

Hopefully, someone will post the words to the actually song that you are seeking.

Best wishes..

Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:53 AM

The line is naturally reminiscent of "Boil the Cabbage Down", in which the chorus goes

"Boil them cabbage down, boys,
Bake them hoecakes brown boys,
Only song that I can sing
Is boil them Cabbage down."

But without some indication of what's needed this thread will just be a repository for beautiful erudition like Azizi's which shall remain unanchored to a comprehensible question.

A

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:30 AM

One of the funniest movies ever was "Hollywood Shuffle" in which the crazy owner of the Winky Dinky Dog fast food joint decided to use the marketing slogan:

"Ho cakes....'cause hos got ta eat, too!"

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for the compliment Amos! I appreciate your writing too!

Boil those cabbages down was such an obvious example that I don't know why it didn't come to mind before those other examples..

And I agree with you that unless he or she adds some explanatory comments, we don't really know what the person who started this thead had in mind.

But this thread provides an opportunity to exchange information on the specific lyrocs and the general subject of Black secular slave songs..For instance, I've been struck by the large number of African American slave songs about food or that include references to food. I believe this is because many Black enslaved people then seldom had enough food to eat, so food was very much on their minds...

I'll be interested to read any other comments from Guests or others regarding these lyrics and this general subject.

Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:14 AM

LOL! Guest Nerd!!

I love that 1987 movie!!

For those who aren't familiar with it,here's a review:

"Writer/director Robert Townsend stars as Bobby, a young African-American acting hopeful has a boss who thinks he's hopeless, a grandmother who wants him to work in the post office, a girlfriend who gives him blind faith, and the chance to play idiotic and insulting roles in terrible movies. He finds his budding career run aground by white producers guilty of perpetrating and perpetuating negative racial stereotypes. He has a series of comic fantasies about Hollywood's cruel history of image-making, stretching from shuffling happy slaves to clownish buffoons to gun-toting pimps. As the actor suffers through a series of often-demeaning auditions--and an even more demeaning part, once he's hired--he begins to question if he really wants to be a part of the business. A dead-on send-up of Hollywood's interminable parade of ethnic stereotypes."

Click Hollywood Shuffle for more info on this funny/sad movie.

Guest Nerd, I had forgotten the 'ho cake line, but remembered the funny way that the owner of the fast food restaurant said "Winkie Dinkie Dog!"

And what about the Black Acting School scene? Hilarius [and also sad that it is true real..]

And check this out..I wear my hair in an afro..and have since 1967 though it used to be almost as big as that fake afro wig that the character wears in one fantasized scene in the movie..In that scene, the character is a pimp or some bad guy and he has to say a line "Afro, you killed my main man, Afro!' And it wasn't as much WHAT was said as it was HOW it was said". "Afro" was both a personal nickname and a reference to that hair style..And I thought it was hilarious!!

Anyway as you probably know not that many Black women then or now still wear afros..So the next morning after the movie comes on TV, I'm walking down my street to get to the bus stop, and this young Black girl about 9 years old or so sees me and yells out "Afro, you killed my main man, Afro!"

And I thought that was hilarious too! She may have meant it as a dis [light insult] but I had to laugh 'cause I thought it was so real..

Thanks for bringing back those memories, Guest Nerd who I'm sure is not really a nerd but a person who probably loves to use his or her mind in a age when many people don't..

Best wishes,
Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:24 AM

Okay, one more post, and then I'll gladly turn the conversation back over to others:

John Bartlett's "The Dictionary Of Americanisms", originally published in 1849, and re-printed by Crescent Books, 1989 has this reference for "hoe cakes":

"A cake of Indian meal, baked before the fire. In the interior parts of the country .where kitchen utnesils do not abound, they are baked on a hoe, hence the name.
    'Some talk of hoe-cakes, fair Virginia's pride
    Rich Johnny-cake this month has often tryed
    Both please me well, their virtues much the same;
    Alike their fabric as allied their fame'-J.Barlow, Hasty Pudding"

{"Dictionary Of Americanism", p. 177}

         
Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 12:08 AM

It's hard to believe that movie was so long ago, Azizi. I totally believe your experience with "Afro, you killed my main man, Afro!" As they say when reviewing the zombie movie, "that shit could HAPPEN!"

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 12:19 AM

Hello 'Nerd'.

Yes that experience I described did happen. Probably the girl had watched the movie and I was the first woman with an afro she saw the next day [Black men having short afros were much more common than Black women with that hair style].So even though I believe she meant it as a dig, I find it amusing.

O consider the Hollywood Shuffle movie to be funny/sad.
And IMO unfortunately its subject is not dated..in spite of two Black men winning Oscars this year.


Best wishes,
Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:46 AM

I'd say there's a 99-3/8% chance that the requested song is a version of Bile Dem Cabbage Down (click). At the top of the lyrics page, you'll see links to all of the threads we've had on that song. This Google search will take you to other versions.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:59 AM

I know part of the "Cabbage" song as:

Bile them cabbage down, down
Turn them hoecakes round . . .

Turning the hoecakes round is understandable when you look at cooking them in front of a live fire. One side would be a lot closer to the heat, and they would need to be turned around to avoid burning that side. They might not be flipped, a la pancakes, but turned around, yes.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:28 PM

So Joe-- can the thread title be clarified to something like "Hoecakes-- what's up with them?"? Or can the posts be moved to the next-best thread?

~S~

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:44 PM

All this talk about corn meal breads, etc., is making me hungry. Gonna have hushpuppies with my dinner tonight. But Hoecakes- Good if you have an outdoor oven or horno.

I will post a hoecake in thread 43283 which has lots of corn meal goodies. Corn breads
Dag nab it! Some damnyankee or furriner closed that thread- but look at it anyhow- some super recipes posted there! Hushpuppies, corn pone etc.!
OK, I will put it in the mixed thread (with stews) 43692: Stew and Bread

Also don't miss Dave O's and Beccy's cornbreads, threads 72661 and 57460.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

Ceolas (Fiddler's Companion) gives this verse with 'Bile Them Cabbage Down."

Go bile dem cabbage down
Turn dat hoe cake 'round
Cook it done and brown

Yes, gwineter have sweet taters too
Hain't had none since last Fall
Gwineter eat 'em skins an' all.

From Talley, no, 232, "Cooking Dinner." Negro Folk Rhymes.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:31 PM

Thread creep!

What's the use of thread numbers?   Q gave 72661 as the number of a corn bread thread I started.   How does one use that number? Of if you can't use it to access the thread, what's the point of posting it?

And how does one know the number of a thread one gets into? For instance, what's the number of this thread, and how did you find the number?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:00 PM

Dave: the full URL of a given post includes the thread ID number. For example:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79013#1429334

indicates the URL and then the parameter called thread ID which in this case is 79013.

If you were to change that number to a lower one at random, and leave off the #xxxxx part to the right of the thread ID number, you would end up looking at some random thread. IIRC, it doesn't go all the way down to 001, but you can fool around abnd see what you come up with.

A

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:38 PM

Uncle, never mind that-- just copy and paste the thread ID number into any open thread where the URL shows ITS thread ID and bango, there you go. Like in this thread, swap out the 79013 and following crap, and swap in 72661 and hit GO. You'll land in cornbread (or stew, I guess).

Joe uses them to index things, so sometimes we refer to them in shorthand instead of pasting in the whole URL or making a clicky. I believe Q got into the habit from working on the spirituals permathread-- all I need are thread ID numbers to build links that can be boosted into alpha order-- so we started getting lazy and just using the thread ID.

~S~

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:18 PM

Uncle DaveO, the thread number appears in the address on my desktop; this one says 79013&messages17 (the number of posts).
A little Mudcat trick-
Open another window.
Get a Mudcat thread
Insert the number of the thread you want to get, and delete the thread number that is there.
ENTER
Voila, you have found the thread!

I assumed every mudcatter knew this. I put the thread number as well as the link in most cases, but, stewing over the closing of a perfectly good thread, I forgot to put the links for you and Beccy.

WYSIWYG, and Amos, I read DaveO's post, and jumped to my blank. Both of you had already said the same thing, but more elegantly.

Link to Beccy's cornbread 57460- Beccy
Link to DaveO's cornbread 72661- DaveO

(At least I hope that's right)

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:23 PM

Well, I wasn't right. 72661: DaveO
(I hope that's not the one for fried wichity grubs)

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM

Q said:

I assumed every mudcatter knew this.

Well, being a newcomer (only since 1992) I didn't, somehow! :-D

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:09 PM

1992?!!

When did Mudcat begin?

Azizi

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:18 PM

I was mistaken. It wasn't 1992; it was 1990. I know there were some GUEST appearances before that, but that's about when I joined.

And when Mudcat began, somebody else would have to say.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Compton
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:21 PM

Now here's a thing. Up here in good ol' Staffordshire...we have a local delicacy, Oatcakes, a sort of flat pancake made of oats. Could they be in anyway related?

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:32 PM

Shortnin' bread-it makes the whole world kin.

;O)

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:34 PM

OOPS! Wrong thread.

Okay,re-wind..

Hoe-cakes. It makes the whole world kin.

;O))

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:48 PM

Dave:

Your first post under this handle was in Jan 2000.

Thread# 001 was started in October, 1996.

But " thread 4#4" , for some reason, was started on 1 October 1996, and in that post Max Spiegel did kindly say:


Subject: The Mudcat Café
From: Max - PM
Date: 01 Oct 96 - 12:00 AM

I thank you all for all your kind emails. Many are full of wonderful information and information requests. They all induced me to create this forum to share with the rest of the world. For I think we're all in it for the same reasons... the enjoyment of this art form called music.

I hope you all enjoy this new service. It is still very new, so some debugging may be needed.

Thanks again,

Max D. Spiegel - Publisher - The Mudcat Café

---

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:59 PM

Mea culpa, mea culpa!    I read "00" as "90".

They say the first thing to go with age is memory (my initial thought that it was 1992), and I guess the second is eyesight.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:15 PM

DaveO, just don't look at my old threads. The euphemism 'senior moment' applies too often.

Hoe Cake:
(another recipe)

Moisten salted corn meal with scalding water or milk. Allow it to stand for an hour. Put two or three teaspoons of this on a hot greased griddle. Smooth it out to make cakes one-half inch thick and let it cook. When one side is done, turn over and brown the other.
Serve very hot for breakfast. This dish goes well with sausage.
(If you like it sweet, cover with warm molasses. My add.)
1932 southern cookbook

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Compton
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:47 PM

This "Blue Clicky" deosn't look right!
If the Hoe Cake had only been made of oats instead of corn!
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/2333/

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

That link to the 1932 cookbook is OK, but you have to scroll way, way down. Many other goodies, like baked hominy---

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,Opie
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:22 AM

back to the song...

Bile Them Cabbage, in the version I know, does contain the line:

Bile them cabbage down, boys, turn them hoecakes round,
Only tune that I can play, bile them cabbage down.

Now, as to cauliflower...

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:54 AM

Opie:

Read the thread!


A

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Amos- "only song."
Opie- "only tune."

(Lord, spare us)

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 01:43 PM

Oh sweet mama treetop tall
won't you kindly turn your damper down
Oh Oh Oh Oh
I can smell those ho cakes a burning honey
They done burned plum brown

If you ever travel south
just think of me
we got a one room shanty on the edge of town
Oh Oh sweet mama
treetop tall
wont you kindly turn your damper, kindly turn your damper, kindly turn your damper down.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 09:17 AM

Greetings!

Here's a correction to a page citation that I made in 2005 in this comment:
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:54 AM

The page for "Sweet Mama treetop tall/Won't you turn your damper down?" etc. in Dorothy Scarborough's book is 242 and not 262 as I mistyped.

I realized this error when I used Google search to look up internet references to songs that contain references to hoe cakes as part of my research for this post on my pancocojams blog:
http://pancocojams.blogspot.com/2013/12/mama-bake-that-johnny-cake-christmas.html.

I apologize for that eight year old typo.

Happy Holidays!

Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM

"They say the first thing to go with age is memory . . ."

It's the second.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM

a hoe seems an odd choice for a baking implement...the blade's at the wrong angle. Seems to me a shovel or spade would be much more practical.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 11:41 AM

I'm not sure that the hoe referred to is the right-angled garden hoe we're all used to.

It may be an implement called a hoe but with a blade oriented as a continuation of the pole or handle--what I am used to referring to as a
chopper.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM

The terms "hoe cake" and "Indian meal" above put me in mind
of one of my favorite banjo-performance songs, the first
part of which is as follows:

Sing Anything

You got to chaw your own tobacco,
Never borrow, lend, nor steal.
And always eat your hoe cake
Of Indian corn meal.
Always treat the ladies kindly,
Never kiss 'em on the sly.
Big pig or little pig,
Root hog or die!

Sing anything, sing anything,
That's what the people say.
A long song, a comic song
To pass the time away.
I love a song, a comic song,
Oh play me something, sing!
Sing anything, sing anything
Oh yes, sing anything!

(And more verses about examples of
"anything" to be celebrated in festive song.)

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM

There are many types of hoes; when the term "hoe" types is Googled, in the entries are pictures, the first one is a type we used when gardening to scrape off the thousands of little weeds that sprout up in the Spring. The blade is angled degrees forward.
It is ideal to make hoe cake in an open fire.

Another type is a baker's hoe (?) (don't know the technical name), the blade parallel with the handle, which I have seen used to place pizza in an oven, and around a peech (Ukrainian).

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 09:31 AM

Q:

The "baker's hoe" (an expression I never heard before)
which you described is a "peel". I have a nice big
peel, because I make pizza for my family about once a
week.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 11:14 AM

Thanks, Uncle Dave. I didn't know what to call it. I had heard a Ukrainian name, but I can't remember it.

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 12:05 PM

https://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/hasm_n0701/

Subject: RE: turn the ho'cakes round boys, turn the
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 01:24 PM

See also, Azizi's post at the top of the thread.

“Hoecake
The term hoecake is first attested in 1745, and the term is used by American writers such as Joel Barlow and Washington Irving. The origin of the name is the method of preparation: they were cooked on a type of iron pan called a hoe. There is conflicting evidence regarding the common belief that they were cooked on the blades of gardening hoes.

A hoecake can be made either out of cornbread batter or leftover biscuit dough. A cornbread hoecake is thicker than a cornbread pancake.[wiki]

Etymology:
Johnycakes &c are made with North American maize corn which doesn't grow that well in many places. Traditional, Southeren hoe cakes are a very different thing.

North American “duck corn” isn't maize at all and might mean anything from a fungus (Wolfiporia extensa) to any number of Arrow arums (Orontium aquaticum, Peltandra virginica.)

fwiw: One of the many local Indian-Creole-Conchy names for duck corns is tuckahoe, loosely – round bread. Older than iron tools altogether. More like the Stone Age.