BS: our increasing racist government

Subject: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Davetnova
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:43 AM

Not content with stopping and searching a "disproportionate" number of muslims, our wonderful democratic government has decided that it may be a good idea to educate male black adolescents in separate classes. Apparently "their" culture views cleverness as something undesirable.Does this sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM

Considering that the idea of separate classes for black male pupils was actually proposed by Trevor Phillips, Chairman of the Campaign for Racial Equality, who is himself black, I think you have flown away off on a tangent!

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:52 AM

Next we can have separate classes for people with acne who are between 5'4" and 5'6" and who wear tinted glasses, have had an orthodontic appliance at least once in their lives and are left handed.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:55 AM

If by "Does this sound familiar" you mean does it sound like someone is trying to help a section of our society by ensuring that their socio/economic background does not interfere with them getting a good education then yes, it does sound familiar. If however you mean does it sound like they are trying to segregate young black males for racist or other sinister purposes then no, it doesn't. Don't go accusing the government of racism. they have enough real faults without people making more up!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:11 AM

sounds like a lot of emotion, a little opinion, and next to no information. cheers

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM

BBC news report:
Black classes 'could be illegal'

If it works, I'm all for it.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Davetnova
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM

I'm sure Trevor Phillips is saying this for all the right reasons but just because he is coloured doesn't mean his remarks can't be racist.
I can see no advantage in segregating a group on the grounds of colour for any reason.
If this is done in a school it has every chance of creating tension between these boys and those who remain in mainstream classes.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:54 AM

Davetnova, do you have any experience of teaching?

Black boys separate classes plan

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:58 AM

during her second year of middle school our daughter was put into an all girls math and science class..it was the best thing that ever hapened as far as her schooling was concerned. No one thought it a sexists programme, just something that would help students...........and it did.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:59 AM

Because of peer pressure and a wrongly perceived anti education bias within their culture young Afro Carribean males do very badly at school, and anything that can be done to improve their lot is valid in my book.

Not so long ago there was a radio programme exploring the reason why better off Carribean immigrants are sending their children [mostly male] back to the homeland to be educated. The main reason given by these parents was discipline, without which they said the British education system was failing to properly educate their children. Whereas the schools back home used what the parents described as 'proper discipline'
What that comprises I can only guess, but I bet it would unfortunately be considered illegal in the EEC, where nannying is the order of the day.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:03 AM

Not discriminating between sexes, or between races, is a vital principle. So is giving kids the best start in life. Once you've got more than one principle(I hope most of us have quite a few), they will ineviatbly come into conflict from time to time. You have to be grownup about resolving these difficult problems, and not just slag off the people who make a slightly different prioritisation.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:14 AM

Do you mean "our" as in "Our UK Gov't"? US folks will no doubt participate in the discussion-- hope everyone keeps in mind the differences between US/UK in terms of government structure, current events, cultural setting, ideas about racism, etc.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Crystal
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

kids in single sex schools seem to do better than those in mixed sex education. Maybe if this was applied to everyone it wouldn't be seen a discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:49 AM

There have been reports in the past that girls are achieving better scholastic results than boys in general in the UK. Various ideas were raised to try to get the boys to do better, from single sex education to rearranging seating in classes so that boys and girls sat together to break up the 'pack behaviour' that it was suggested might be causing the problem.

From first hand experience I know that, even now, a lot of Afro-Caribean families live in areas where the schools are fairly low in the performance tables, and with ever increasing numbers of children for whom English is a second language. Has this been taken into account in producing the figures?

Whatever the educational problems there are always a myriad number of theories put forward to solve them. I don't think that Trevor Phillips was being racist here, he was just suggeting a possible solution to a worrying problem. The downside to any of these solutions is that it directly affects the future of the children involved. That's what has to be seriously taken into account when any decision is made.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:33 PM

Teaching underachieving black boys in separate classes for some subjects has been rejected by the government. (BBC)

our wonderful democratic government has decided that it may be a good idea to educate male black adolescents in separate classes. (Davetnova)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:54 PM

In the early seventies there was a major research on the effect of single sex education and the school I attended (all girls) was one of those included in the study. Its findings were that girls performed better on average in a single sex environment whilst boys generally performed better in a mixed class!! Sometimes it just isn't possible to have the perfect solution. On the whole I am against any division by sex or race but isn't this just an extension of special needs provision?
Amongst adolescent boys being academic is not always seen as 'cool' so maybe the real task should be to change these perceptions and actually help these youngsters to see that education has a value and not just as a way of getting a job because they will soon turn round and tell you that this is not the case! Moving away from a national curriculum so that teachers can use their professional judgement to adapt learning to students interests and needs whoever they are might be a good start. Most schooling (as opposed to education) these days is about jumping through the right hoops and improving schools position on the league tables which ultimately affects their funding.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

It was reported that a successful trial had been done in New York for male African American boys.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist goverment
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:54 PM

Gioks point is good, Mrs Duck's point is good. It's all about culture and black carribean male culture is a major problem in Britain. Compare it with the Asian and Chinese male culture. It's nothing to do with race or colour, it's just culture.
Ask the Spanish about white british culture in their country, or the French. It's all about culture and only culture.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:27 PM

I'm glad this has come up, and I'm glad to see these responses.

I have always thought it racist, condescending and dismissive to pretend that there is no difference at all between the different races.

To recognise a difference and respond in a positive manner may technically be racism, but I think we've all moved on from political correctness for its own sake, haven't we?

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

Separate schools for Black males? I'm not totally convinced that this is a good idea

IMO, if these schools ARE established, the major concern should be the same as that for all schooling:

What is the curriculum? Does it differ from the curriculum in other schools, and if so how?..are the teaching methods different-and if so how and why?

What is the classroom size? What textbooks will the school use and who decides this?

How qualified and experienced are the teachers, aids, and administration? What special services are available in the school? What does the school's facility look like? What funding does the school have for supplemental field trips, presenters ect?

Is the school set up with research or to impart knowledge?

And what opportunities-besides athletics-will the students of the school have to interact with persons who are not Black [not to mention the thorny question about the definition of who is and isnot Black]..

I am concerned that good ideas often don't lead to good places..
And I would not want these Black males to be further marginalized..

And even if these public schools ARE wonderful for those students who attend, I have to wonder if funding & support services are being taken from a larger pool of Black and non-Black students in order for a small number of students to improve their test scores..

As I said, I'm not totally convinced that this is a good idea..

But I'm open to being convinced.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:06 AM

Proof reading is definitely not my strong suit..

Among other typos I meant to say:

Is the school set up for research or to impart knowledge?

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:07 AM

I'm totally not convinced!

In Vancouver it was decided that kindergarten students with English as a second language would be entitled to full day kindergarten while those with English as a first language would be entitled to only a half day. The idea being that the those with English as 2nd language needed a little more of a head start. Of course this meant that the kindergarten classes were effectively segregated.

What has actually occurred is that because the the 2nd language kids were segregated, their language acquisition has actually decreased because they have no playmates that speak English.

Kids learn more from each other than the learn from adults. If you want them to learn from each other (this also includes tolerance for differences) they have to learn it from each other, not from an adult standing at the head of the class. It is up to the teacher to act as a facilitator for the transmission of knowledge, not to arrange social groupings that have nothing to do with the reality of society.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:52 AM

FWIW, my son-in-law is from Antigua where he attended his early years of school, until age 15 when he moved to the US and finished his high school education. The schools on Antigua were more disciplined and he received an excellent education there. The only thing I've ever heard him complain about was being a member of the school steeel drum band and being made to perform for the Queen He didn't like the idea of playing for some "old white lady" who supposedly *ruled* the roost, so to speak.:-)

Now, my mixed race grandsons live in an area of diversity; go to school with many children of mixed race and/or immigrant parents and seem to be doing very well at it, so far.

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:34 AM

This thread has an interesting theme but had a bad start by giving wrong and misleading information. Some of the comments are based upon this misleading start. Separate schools has never been the issue, not even separate classes, the issue has been separation of the classes for some subjects (for black boys only).

How to help black boys

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:33 AM

Thanks Wolfgang for that link.

I am taking the liberty to post a portion of that article here:

"What we do know is that boys of all races in the UK perform badly, but the biggest underachievement is by black Caribbean followed by black African. This is not a new phenomenon and was documented three decades ago by Bernard Coard, an Inner London Education Authority researcher, who put forward three reasons: low expectations and low aspirations by blacks boys and low expectations by schools. Two decades ago the Swann committee conducted a formal inquiry and reached the same conclusions, which were re-echoed last year by an education commission on London schools. Another black voice, Diane Abbott, the Labour MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, rightly insisted last year that the problem must not be swept under the carpet.

To their credit ministers have not been sitting on their hands. Extra money has been pumped into inner-city schools through such programmes as Excellence in the City and London Challenge. Both have begun reaping rewards. A new programme in 30 secondary schools, which is piloting new ways of helping under achievement, has a racial strand that includes black pupils. A new programme by the Teacher Training Agency to recruit more ethnic minority candidates into teaching is beginning to show results with a 12% increase in recruits last year pushing up their proportion to 9%. The recruitment of more black teachers was high up on Mr Phillips's priorities. "

end of quote.

It seems that a pilot study is proposed in the UK that is based on good preliminary results of a pilot study of a program in St Louis, Missouri. From that full article it appears that the Black boys in this pilor study would be pulled out of their integrated classes for specific "black strand" classes.

I hope they're not talking about Black history & culture 101 UK style and are offering this course [suspect as it might be] JUST for Black boys...

As somewhat of an aside, way back in the late 1960s when I was in college I took a Black history course. The teacher happened to be a Jewish woman whose mother was a survivor of Nazi Germany. I was one of few Black students in the class [actually I was one of few Black people-faculty or students-in the college, a bit of information that
I believe is pertinent to my main point]. This teacher seemed to have little experiental knowledge of Black folk. Futhermore, she constantly would vehemently state her opinion as fact that Jewish people 'had a worse time in history' than Black people. As you might expect, I didn't feel that her OPINION was pertinent to the course's subject and I made my feelings known-and in doing so probably scarificed an A in that subject..

Which brings me back to the subject of taking Black boys out of classes to teach them certain courses..Hasa any one considered the pyscho-social ramifications to these boys and the rest of the class for doing this?

Besides, I repeat my laundry list of concerns writing above with a few additions: Which courses are we talking about? Are these subsitutes or additions to the regular courses? When are they offered {for instance are seen as supplemental courses after school or when school is recessed in the summer months? And, given the paucity of Black teachers, who is going to teach these subjects?

I hasten to state the obvious-Black skin and male gender does not automatically make a person a skilled, sensitive, culturally competent teacher for Black boys-for any other students.

Even if school systems had money to burn-and I'm sure they don't-I would be wary of this project. It seems to me to be another one of those well meaning benefit-a-few-students-for-a-couple-of years short term simplistic solutions to a deeply complex long term problem.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

Azizi I can't answer all of your 'shopping list' but I believe the idea is 'whole' education to try to increase the number of black kids passing their school exams. I can tell you however that it is unlikely that any activities would be undertaken in vacation times, as those activities do not happen in any schools in the UK, where the summer camp thing is only now beginning to happen in a small way. Extra curricular activities like taking classes out for day trips to museums, or outdoor courses in term time is not going to happen either. This is because fewer and fewer teachers are willing to take kids for on school activities. Firstly this increasingly litigious society has made the insurance cover now required too expensive, and secondly teachers don't get paid enough for the hours they have to work now, without volunteering to do more unpaid work.
There was an item today on BBC radio about parents sending black kids to school in West Africa where they believe they will get a better education.
> This link
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:13 AM

And another question: would Black boys who are not underachieving have to take this course or courses? If yes, why? and if no, then this further stigmatizes the underachieving Black Black boys..

My position is that Black history and culture courses be REALLY woven into the core curriculum or provided as a competently taught course for ALL students..

Shame on this pilot program is talking about providing Black History & Culture as a remedial course..Even if this program is talking about experimenting with different ways of teaching academic subjects same subject matter [say with a more interactive approach] I still would prefer that it occur within an integrated race/ethnicity classroom.. I'm less concerned about separating students out by gender since boys and girls will find opportunities to get to know each other. But social interactions across 'racial lines' appear to happen less frequently even when students attend the same school.

If such interaction is considered a good thing {and I maintain that it is] why set up additional barriers that might lessen the chances of it occuring?



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: our increasing racist government
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:22 AM

I think that the attitude vis a vis black people in the UK is different to the US experience. There is no slavery history attached to the black families who live here, and the majority of theses families arrived in Britain in the 1950s, which is within living memory, so there are less myths, and oral only history involved. They not only came of their own free will, but they came as members of the British Commonwealth, and holding British passports. We have never fought a civil war in which the plight of the black man was a contributory factor, and therefore do not have the guilt aspect that attaches to the history of blacks in the US, particularly segregation. While I'm not saying we treat our black population any better or worse, we have a different relationship one with another as far as racial differences are concerned over here. So to apply the same criteria here as in the US is not always a valid idea.
Giok