The Northern Bank Raid

Subject: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

If you read some of the threads relating to issues about the North of Ireland, there are a number of people out there who seem to know with certainty that The Provisional Irish Republican Army carried out the raid. Can they please state what they base their knowledge on ? Is it because they heard it somewhere ? Is it because Tony Blair said they did it ?(W.M.D. Tony). Is it because Bernie Ahearn said it ? (His party know nothing about dodgy dealings) or it because an Independant body, elected by the British Government who also fund them, said the P.I.R.A. carried it out? Put the proof you vomit out of your mouth into fact. I do not believe they had any part in it, as stated in their statement of December 2004. The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland. If the repackaged R.U.C. knew who did it, they would of had them in by now, after all they arrested many Republicans for nothing over thirty years. Go on you lot out there STATE YOUR PROOF.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:32 AM

Should be in BS.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:20 AM

Should be added to old thread

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:32 PM

Curator,

I'll have a little of whatever it is you're smoking. Seems to detach one completely from reality. Oh, and while you're at it, lend me the blinkers too.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:03 PM

yes should be in BS and some of us including myself served in northern ireland and lost friends.Making SINN FEIN look golder then gold is kinda narrow seems your post is very pro IRA this is not the place for such stuff P.S what planet do you come from.

Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

You are wasting your time.

They grandly tell you that you can't possibly understand anything. My suggestion that religious ubiquity was part of their problems was shouted down on two occasions. next thing they're using the term protestant like its a swear word.

Just leave them to it.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Tyke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM

Oh I'm against the death penaly and I think every one deserves a fair trial. Have the IRA shot themselves in the foot offering to shot people with out one? So why even try to debate this issue here it's not the place.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:29 PM

This could be a lively thread, and I concu it should be in the BS group. PLease note that BS in this context doesn't mean "BS," just non-musical. It's a "convention" willingly accepted by most of the family from experience. There have been many really great threads here on a varieyt in "Irish socio/politico/etc" topics that didn't start out "musical," but became that way by the good graces of the marvelous folks who inhabit this (and that) place. The Campsite at Drumcree thread comes to mind.

COULD A JOE CLONE BE SO KIND AS TO MOVE THIS TO THE BS COLLECTION?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: belfast
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:17 PM

I think we all agree that this should be below the line.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:44 AM

This was about the fifth such bank raid in Northern Ireland in the last couple of years. Most have been blamed, until now, not on the mainstream IRA, but on "dissident" Republicans. The two governments played these down, not wanting to upset the poitical process, thus "massaging the egos of the terrorists", as one commentator has put it. However, the scale of the Northern raid made it not brushable under the carpet, and so both governments have decided to take the initiative.

The worst aspect of the raids is the holding of family members of bank officials at gunpoint for 24, or more, hours by men in space suits. Meantime the employee is sent off to work and told to bring back the money or his family members will be killed.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:52 AM

Paddymac proposes this thread should be moved to the non-music section.

It is so moved.


But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:02 AM

And one poor woman left out in the woods on a freezing night.
We spectators can not produce evidence Guest Curator, but the scale of the operation suggest a large organisation and command structure.
Could such an organisation co exist alongside the known paramilitaries?
We note that not just the Irish government but also their police force are adamant IRA did it. I am sure they have a network of sources up north.
Read between the lines of our members within the Nationalist community. Their sympathy is with the republican movement, but they are not saying IRA is innocent on this. I get the impression, albeit from a distance, that everyone knows the IRA did it and only deny it with a wink and a smile.
As for your comment that the police would have had them in by now, there is no point going to trial with no witnesses.
There were 70 people in the pub when the popular Robert McCartney was mutilated and murdered. Every one of them says they were in the toilet at the time.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

I see our friend reckons that the Irish Police force knew it was the Provisional Army that did the job, would that be the Donegal branch ?they are up north, no it couldn't of been them, because they were all in court at the the being charged with setting boys up with fake evidence. Read that report on the net. Still awaiting the proof it was sanctioned by the Council.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:00 AM

These are questions not assertions:

Could it be that the IRA has morphed permanently into a criminal enterprise under cover of political freedom fighters, that those involved are more or less permanently involved and unable to abandon is because of its institutional status as well as the profits from its criminal activities?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:14 AM

I think our guest has a great name..the Curator. "A keeper or custodian of a museum". A museum of ideas and attitudes long outdated. Leave him with his mustiness and longing for what's gone by and his bitterness at its passing.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:04 AM

Still awaiting evidence the Provisionals were involved, it's a long time coming. Please stop posting silly remarks and state your evidence, your like advertisements during a good film. Get on with your proof please.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,A Realist
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM

"Could it be that the IRA has morphed permanently into a criminal enterprise under cover of political freedom fighters". No, they haven't morphed. It's what they've always been.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

"But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song...."

Joe Offer probably intended his remark as a light-hearted comment in an otherwise serious discussion but it is worth remembering that those responsible for the robbery and kidnapping made it clear that they were prepared to kill those taken hostage.

Can you imagine anyone in this forum suggesting that the exploits of kidnappers in Iraq might make "a great folk song"? Just as we abhor "Muslim" terrorists, shouldn't we abhor "Christian" terrorists too?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 06:56 AM

Come on gentlemen, I am still awaiting the proof The Provisional Command was involved. So many of you were so sure a week or two ago and now you are silent.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:17 AM

Again Curator, no one here can give you evidence.
We are entitled to our suspicions, and they are just that.
There are no witnesses, just as there are none to that murder in a crowded bar.
The murder that the IRA at first also tried to deny involvement in.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

Keith, I know no one can give me evidence, because simply it's not there to be found, but if you read all the posts here one would think that a couple of volunteers and an O.C. had been charged after an admission. Regarding this ongoing McCartney (get the boot in) story, the Command for that area did not try to deny it.They made it clear that no active service unit was involved in any operation duty on the night in question.As to no witnesses coming forward, if you want me to recall for you an incident in which a young girl of 11 was murdered by a British soldier firing a rubber bullet into her face when no public disturbance took place, there was just the girl and two 10 year old friends in the street.None of the other seven soldiers in the mobile patrol saw anything, two claimed they didn't hear the shot !
The murdering bastard wasn't discharged from the British Army. Then again why would he be, he was ideal for the job.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:02 PM

Yes, that happened.
Abhorent.
I mentioned the recent murder only because it illustrates why it is so hard to get convictions.
Of the hundreds of murders in the troubles, half have no convictions.

Finally, although there is no hard proof against an individual for a conviction in court, there is ample evidence for reasonable suspicion that the individuals involved in the Northern Bank raid were acting for and on behalf of the Provisional IRA.

As someone else said, even the dogs in the street know who did it.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Seems like the PSNI raided several private homes in the follow-up to the bank heist, all of which were residences of noted nationalists or suspected sympathisers, and came up empty handed, at least as far as the bank issues was concerned. My suspicion is that they merely used the bank heist as an excuse for another of their massive invasions of privacy. Later, I recall reading that actual traceable bank notes from the heist were found in two places: one was a barn in County Cork, and the other was a Policeman's (sorry, P-person's) club in NI. Police, not suprisingly, called the later find a "plant," while I don't recall any such comment about the Cork find. For a useful paradigm, interested folks might want to google the Castlereagh incident of a couple years ago. The IRA remain a useful "Boogey man" for British and NI officialdom - but that's an old, old story.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:38 PM

I guess the premise, Curator, is that if there is no proof they could not have done it? Nice to see someone with such faith in the British judicial system. I thought you Irish had no faith at all in it? And there was me thinking that the police would not pursue the case for purely politcal reasons. Ah well, just goes to show how wrong I can be. Thanks for restoring my faith in the system.

Now, about reviewing certain Guildford or Birmingham cases...

:D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:53 PM

Dave,

I think that there does not have to be any hard evidence to say who was responsible, although proving it in a court of law may be difficult, but surely with all the accusations against Sinn Fein and the I/R.A. there must be at least a tiny smidgen of hard evidence to warrant the accusations. I say let them publish whatever proof (no matter how little) they have. Just publish what they have or else look elsewhere.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:42 AM

You're quite right of course, Jimmy. They should publish what little proof they have. I have not seen any but my guess is that it would go along the lines of guilt by implication. If any organisation, IRA, PIRA, UDF, Mafia or Triad, is known to be involved in criminal activities. ANY criminal activities. Then they should not be surprised when the policeman comes knocking at the door everytime a crime is commited in their neighbourhood. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this what has happened here?

Just noticed a line in the opening diatribe btw. The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland. If this is indeed the case, where is the proof? Has Curator not just commited the very sin he accuses others of?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:39 PM

Somebody did it Dave, and I am stating here and now that it was not done by the Provisional Irish Republican Army, nor was it done by any active service unit working alone outside of a district command. I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement. I am telling you that the Army council did not order the raid. neither did any unit command or active service unit take part. And as for Sinn Fein being involved, thats just silly.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:49 PM

I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement.

Much as I hate to plagurise anyone else's post, Curator, didn't someone say very early in thread "STATE YOUR PROOF"..?

;-)

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:48 PM

I think the onus should be on " proof as to who did it' and not proof as to who did not do it. ?. I believe in a court of law they have to prove the guilt and not the innocence ?????>

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:43 AM

I agree wholeheartedly, Jimmy. However, this is not a court of law. It is some friends having a civilised discusion. It is not even a discussion about who did it as far as I know. It starts as a critisism of anyone having the temerity to even suggest that they felt the PIRA committed the robbery. It goes along the lines of 'unless you have proof you should not say anything'.

This does not, apparantly, apply to everything. Curator goes on to say "The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland." and "I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement." The 'forces woring to undermine' and 'British undercover agents' are not, it seems, to be awarded the same leeway.

I have no axe to grind about either side entrenched in this struggle. I just wonder why the Curator requires this proof of colusion for one side yet blatantly disregards the burden of proof for the opposition?

Not, it seems to me, the rationale of a fair minded person?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:47 AM

Yes I did say please STATE YOUR PROOF, because every other post said that the Provisionals were responsible. So many seemed to know with certainty who did it. I only wanted to know how they knew and what they knew, and had I missed something ?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland.

Tell you what then, Curator. I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

:D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:59 AM

may i politely suggest another significant point which is being ignored by most pundits, as far as i know?
Sinn fein MPs in the westminster parliament have been stripped of their parliamentary allowances specifically becuas eof the Northern bank raid.
No due process. No charges. No evidence of a Sinn Fein connection. No trial. Just high-handed punishment, meted out by a Government which increasingly seems to want to take the law into its own dubious care - as opposed to the hands of the judicary. (see Anti terrorist Bill earlier this week)
A slippery slope, I fear.
What if it was YOUR group (minority, political party, activist group etc ) which had official sanctions imposed upon it - without a shred of evidence, charges or a fair hearing. And nobody seems to be making a fuss. THAT's the REAL cause for concern here, surely?
D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:04 AM

Would these be the same Sinn Fein MPs who refuse to take the oath that allows them to actually take their seats and vote in Parliment? Is it astounding to not pay people allowances if they are not doing the job they were elected to do? Just a little point...

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, Curator, I don't have the proof. But I do believe that an organisation which recruited semi-psyopaths and brain washed them into full blown pschos whose function it was to carry out "fund-raisers" and kill people in the process without any qualms of conscience can not expect us to believe that they have pulled some magic switch to deactivate these zombies. It is quite understandable that many of those "operatives" who now see their masters living the high life with celebrity status while they are unemployable and left out in the cold would resort to "earning" a living by the only method they know.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM

paranoid android I think you'll find that ex brit troops get a pension. You did mean them didnt you?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Meself Alone said:

"But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song...."

Joe Offer probably intended his remark as a light-hearted comment in an otherwise serious discussion but it is worth remembering that those responsible for the robbery and kidnapping made it clear that they were prepared to kill those taken hostage.

Can you imagine anyone in this forum suggesting that the exploits of kidnappers in Iraq might make "a great folk song"? Just as we abhor "Muslim" terrorists, shouldn't we abhor "Christian" terrorists too?

Can you imagine something as big as ANY of these events not making it into song? The point of view is a separate issue, but of course this is the material of song.

I agree with Joe, it sounds like a song. For those of us on this side of the pond, the Northern Ireland bank robbery isn't what immediately comes to mind under this thread name.

Jesse James made his own raid on a northern bank in 1876 that caused a bit of a stir here. Historians are still sorting out what all happened during Jessie's career.

A search of the DT comes up with the following:

The Digitrad Results

0.8510 - JESSE JAMES (I WONDER WHERE MY POOR OLD JESSE'S GONE)
0.8510 - BAND OF JESSE JAMES
0.8351 - JESSE JAMES (3)
0.8351 - JESSE JAMES
0.8169 - ONE DIME BLUES
0.7967 - TRUE BALLAD OF JESSE JAMES
0.7967 - RALEIGH AND SPENCER
0.7967 - BEAR CREEK BLUES
0.7742 - LONNIGAN'S WIDOW
0.7742 - LONE ROCK SONG
0.7742 - JESUS CHRIST
0.7742 - J.B. MARCUM
0.7742 - INFLUENZA
0.7742 - BLUE WATER LINE
0.7742 - BELLE STARR

Just so you know.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

"The wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland". What was that?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

I have heard our volunteers called some names, but the above at least brings a smile. Ask your British soldiers who served their queen in my country, did they ever under estimate their enemy ? Watch a two part programme coming on channel four in two weeks looking at the creation of an active service unit and their actions in London in 1974 and 75.The then head of the anti terrorist squad called them intelligent dedicated men who the public should not dismiss as madmen. Sorry Para Anoroid that you look upon the men in the units as in need of sociopathic help, you should go out and meet some, I think you would change your outlook. And no, none of the volunteers look at their OC's and envy their life style, because it's no differant to their own. You really should really stop reading those British red tops.And no, none of the Provisional Command was involved in the robbery. Happy St, Patricks day to all of you, even the ones that don't like me.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:48 PM

And a happy St Pats to yourself curator. I like you!

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:28 PM

"Sorry Para Anoroid that you look upon the men in the units as in need of sociopathic help, you should go out and meet some, I think you would change your outlook."

No thanks, Curator. Robert McCartney met a few in Mageniss's bar some weeks back and ended up being butchered in the street. Wonderful patriots!

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:46 AM

Bunnahabhainn, I take your point - but if all MPs are entitled to the allowance, that clearly includes the SF ones too. You can't just remove that allowance (or any other statutory entitlement) just because of someone's views on how well they do the job...otherwise most of the House would be suspect ;¬)

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM

As stated Meself Alone,this was not an operational matter. Pity your not as vocal towards members of the British Army and re packaged R.U.C. Is it just anything concerning the movement that gets you fired up ? I wonder why ? Then again I think I know why.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM

Not an operational matter in that it was not premeditated, but the sanitisation of the scene was carried out as an operation was it not?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 02:03 PM

Also, it not being operational would hardly make Meself's butchering more bearable.

Curator, with your familiar use of military terms and abbreviations, you seem to be saying, with a nod, a wink and a finger laid along the nose, that you have inside knowledge and therefor know that PIRA did not do the job.

However, even if that were true and you were not just a fantasist, we already have the denial. That denial is as hard to believe as the denial that your people were assisting the Columbian terrorists. That they were just there to study the bird life and it was just coincidence that they suddenly started using PIRA style bombs with electronic timers.(and using them very indiscriminately.)

Sure the robbery could have been done by MI5, The Boy Scouts, or the Easter Bunny, but PIRA does seem the more likely culprit. If not why not?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

Yes Keith, I am saying that the Army Council did not give sanctioned authorization for any unit to do the Northern Bank Raid.And yes I am saying that no unit under command was working freelance either. There was an investagation carried out by the command structure within days and their results were conclusive. NO MEMBER OF THE NORTHERN PROVISIONAL COMMAND WAS INVOLVED. And before you start, no there was no involvement by members of any other command either. All of those who are blaming the Provisionals are wrong, as in time you will find. And on another point, because a member of the organisation killed a man during a pub brawl, why do you keep blaming the Provisionals for this man's death ? An S.A.S. man killed a child last week,why is the Special Air Service not getting it in the neck from you? What an individual does in his own time cannot be attributed to the regiment/unit that he belongs to. In the case of the volunteer, the command Did consider dealing with it, but as the ceasefire of 1994 (reconstituted 1998) is still in recognition, an action would have contravened this. Something the family were made aware of and they were still prepared to take action.As to the three men in Columbia,again there is nothing to link them to the provisionals. One was shot by the police as a teenager, who later cleared his name in court of any crime, the other two had been members of Sinn Fein on a political fact finding tour.And the electronic discharge switches used on Frac devices have been used in eleven other countries before the arrest of the three, so anyone could have helped develope their use.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:48 AM

I must admit that my impression while watching a Martin McGuinness interview shortly after the robbery, was that his denial was realistic. I know that he's a shrew and able politician who will always fight his corner (and not always honestly) but on this occasion, he seemed genuinely shocked, bemused and angry.

So who did it? A republican splinter group? This robbery has gained international headlines because of the amount of money stolen, but whoever carried out the previous similar raids were well capable of doing the Northern. It just took a litle longer to carry out all the extra money.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

Big Tim you would need to ask one of the above experts who did it, The police service haven't yet arrested and charged anyone for it, but I'm sure Greg or Keith are just days away from making an announcement based on the information available to them.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,A Realist
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:43 AM

Time will tell. I look forward to reading the 'Apologies' thread. But I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:11 AM

Apart from Columbia, where else do Sinn Feiners visit on 'political fact finding tours' ?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:33 AM

A number of loyalists are currently being held in prison in Northern Ireland, without trial, on the say so of the "secureocrats" (love that word). Do republicans find this acceptable?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:15 AM

No nobody should be held without trail, disregardless of whatever tradition they belong to.Sinn Fein have sent researchers and observers to several countries throughout the world. As you are no doubt aware.And we have always welcomed political search groups from other countries here in Ireland.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:50 AM

They'd do better to send them on spelling and English courses if the curator's anything to go by.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

Theres always a smart ass who has nothing to contribute, my skills lie in many areas my friend,as you will find out in the fullness of time.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:30 AM

Tim, I have yet to hear your opinion on the collusion between Britian and loyalist low-life, who were responsoble for the deaths of many innocent Catholics, remember this is a so-called democratic government responsible for this.
Canadian Judge Cory sent here to investigate the collusion issuse, has come out against the latest attempt, by the Brits to have an inquiry into the shooting dead of Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane by a loyalist   in the pay of the Brits, an inquiry which does not comply with his recommendations.

I wonder if Judge Cory ever got in touch with Brit police investigator John Stalker he came over to get to the bottom of the " shoot to kill"
incidents and found himself not only getting the run-a-round from the RUC, but being criminally involved with a businessman in Manchester on fraud charges, both men were later cleared of any wrong doing, but poor Stalker lost his job.

This collusion issuse is being laid on the long finger by Blair`s government, this goes back a long way and rest assured the truth will never come out, the dirty tricks dept of the Britisg government will make sure of that.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 02:33 PM

What possible motive for discrediting the republican movement could the English government possibly have. the sooner the various beliefs in Northern Ireland learn to live peaceably together - the sooner we can stop paying for the place to be policed by soldiers.

Sinn fein sitting down at the table with the Unionists and sorting your problems out together is the solution every bloody politician apart from half witted Maggie Thatcherites, would love to deliver.

look at the public reverence for Mo Mowlam cos she got it part right.

Presumably the powers that be have their sources of information about the bank job - however who knows perhaps the IRA have weapons of mass destruction as well - but presumably the government is acting on intelligence received.

I used to give guitar lessons to an Irish guy. really nice chap, but not your brand of patriot, Curator.

It was the time of the Falklands and he said to me if you will fight for a dump like the Falklands why won't you fight for part of your own country. i explained most of us don't consider it part of our country.

You call your IRA an army and declare us to be at war periodically. Don't you know that in a war people get hurt. If you call up a situation where there are rubber bullet guns around. Obviously people will get hurt....kiled even.

Sort out your problems curator, with your own countrymen and then the soldiers wouldn't be there.

You have a very moderate government in power in England at the moment and you are wasting the opportunity. God knows the rules will change if Howard and his gang of right wing arseholes win the next election.

Bugger it, I've broken my own rule. I swore I wasn't going to waste my energy talking about this subject again.

All you ever get back is :-

two legs good, four legs bad (bleat! bleat!)

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

From the man who told us in a previous thread that the Catholic church still ruled Ireland with an iron hand, please get it right, you haven`t a clue, but then again you don`t live here. Do you also approve of your governments collusion with their hired killers?.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM

Well said ard mhacha,I was going to reply, but feared GUEST would come back at me for my grammar, well GUEST being one of the names he goes under.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM

Do you also approve of your governments collusion with their hired killers?.

I was going to comment that SF's collusion with hired killers is more obvious but I suspect if I did so I would not only be at risk from the 'cats IRA supporters but from the hired killers themselves, so I won't...

Cheers

Dave the anonymous who doesn't want his knee caps broke.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,pds
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:29 PM

Then maybe someone with something to say will comment?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM

I had occasion to be researching some other things today and came across three reports of money linked to the beig heist. First was the 50k pounds found in the loo of the police club near Belfast, which was immediately branded by Orde and other establishment folk as an "IRA plant." Then the 60K pounds picked up at a house in County Cork. The Garda forensics unit were reoprtedlu hard at work tracing it, or at least trying to trace it to the big heist, but haven't found any reports yet that any of it has actually been connected to the heist. And most recent was the single mother of one who tried to change two 20 pound notes at a bank in Australia. She received the notes from a Belfast bank, and both were included in the incorrect list of serial numbers promulgated shortly after the heist. The law down under has reportedly accepted her innocence, but they haven't yet reimbursed her for the legit 40 pounds. Seems sort of tacky to me. So there ye have it, spots fans, nothing yet but smoke and mirrors.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:27 AM

Ard, you distort my words and you descend to personal abuse without answering my questions.

The catholic church ruling with a rod of iron - your words, not mine - but yes I do think you let that gang of unmarried men have too much say in your affairs, this comes on the week that the catholic Church are telling us in England that they would like to see abortion as a political issue. i bet they would.

As for hired killers, I suppose every country employs them - like Michael Corleone says in the Godfather - to think otherwise is naive.

However when I think back to the 80's when I first moved round here, it seemed like every few weeks there was a young kid of 19 or 20 being buried in the villages round here, having been shot down for wearing an English uniform on the streets of Belfast.

i think in all probability, I wouldn't classify them as hired killers.

Your perpetual jibe is that I don't know anything about the subject. yet you cannot explain your point of view without classifying me as an enemy. Is everybody who disagrees with you only worth a sneer and a put down.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

What possible motive for discrediting the republican movement could the English government possibly have.

wld you kind of proved you know nothing about the situation with the above opening sentence.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM

I know this much: the IRA have lost the "freedom struggle".         

In 1969, the majority in Ireland (32 Counties) believed that the constitutional issue should be resolved on a 32 County basis, as voted for in 1918. In 1998, after 30 years of war, 77% in the Six Counties, and 94% in the 26 Counties, voted for resolution on a six county basis. The war conducted by the IRA set back the very cause for which it was fighting by a generation. It will come, but only when the Six Counties vote for it. Torching little factories in places like Strabane and putting people out of work is crazy.

All the current political manoeuvering, ranting, bank robbing, etc is mere local, Six County, emptying the bins, parish politics. I speak as an Irish republican (small "r") and it angers me greatly to see what the IRA have done to my country.

Ard: you're banging the old "whataboutry" drum again. Will you never learn? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 03:00 PM

Tim so you do approve of the murder of Pat Finucane, you have yet to condemn the collusion between the Brits and the loyalists, do you know better than Judge Cory and John Stalker?.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:31 AM

Ard, your highly selective illogicality is quite staggering.

Nevertheless, just for you, I hereby condemn, without reservation, the murder of Pat Finucane and the probable collusion that led to his death.

Will you condemn the 2139 deaths held against the various Republican terrorist groups, as given in "Lost Lives" (1999)?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:51 AM

I condemn every life lost here, down the years, through the total bankruptcy of all the British governments that have administered here. May I add the same Government also completely ignored, from 1922 until 1969, a totally corrupt Unionist clique to carry on with policies against the minority nationalists.
This same Unionist administration was the envy of the then South African
apartheid government, and you say that had the nationalists set back and let this same parcel of bigots continue, everything by now would have been peaceful and fair.

Yes, I know you are a republican with a small r, and I as a singer make Pavarotti sound like Rod Stewart.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Big Tim if your a Republican then stand by our principles,there's enough on this site taking a swipe as us. READ YOUR GREEN HAND BOOK. Excellent response ard mhacha as always. Ard mhacha Abu !

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:50 AM

I visited Eire in the early 80s during an economic upturn. The folks were cheerfully predicting that not a corrupt, but a bankrupt, old occupancy would end and the North would drop into their laps as later happened with East Germany into Germany.

There are worse solutions than economic solutions.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:12 AM

Ard, up to 69 the Brit government may have known what went on under Stourment, but most of us did not.
I recall us folkies singimg the songs of the US Civil Rights movement to show our solidarity, and being shocked and outraged when a Civil Rights movement with legitimate grievances emerged in a part of UK.
We will never know, and I know I am an outsider, but I am sure the discrimination that went on would not have been tolerated. I suspect that without the armed struggle, the Civil Rights movement would have shamed us into the settlement we are seeking now, years ago.
Keith.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:47 AM

CURATOR, I have read the green book, it ain't my cutta meat.

ARD, there's no point complaining about the old civil rights abuses. They, like slavery, the Famine, sending kids up chimneys, and working from 8 am until midnight, etc, are history and can never be undone.

Constantly bemoaning them can only result in continued bitterness. Don't you think that it's time to let go of the bitterness?

I know a number of formerly moderate unionists with many business links in the Republic who would have been prepared to be cajoled into a United Ireland. Recent events have driven them into the Paisleyite camp.                                                            

It's time to move forward and try to win the unionists over by killing them with kindness. It's the only approach that has any chance of succeeding.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:33 PM

Sweep it all under the carpet?, I am sure the man who said, "if you do not learn from history, it will repeat itself", had this place in mind.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Den
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

Here's something else to sweep under the carpet. This is news from Sunday. I notice that none of are regular "newsworthy reporters" deemed it so. Maybe this should have a thread of its own but I knew there would be a lot regular discussion experts checking back here.

Horror attack on schoolgirl
12-year-old beaten up yards from her home.

By Jonathan McCambridge
[e-mail]

21 March 2005
A Catholic couple was today considering moving house after their 12-year-old daughter was beaten and kicked in a sickening sectarian attack just yards from her front door.

Belfast schoolgirl Megan Brown described how she has been left living in terror after a gang of teenagers jumped her and kicked her in the face while shouting sectarian abuse.

Police have appealed for information following the attack which took place in Old Throne Park off the Whitewell Road at 5pm yesterday.

Megan, a pupil at the Little Flower School in Belfast, was taken to the Royal Victoria Hospital where she was treated for six hours for facial and back injuries including bruising and swelling.

Her mother Anne-Marie Brown today spoke of her anger following the attack.

"Because Megan was walking a few yards in front of her brothers and sisters and me they thought she was on her own.

"It was definitely a sectarian attack because of what they shouted and afterwards they ran off into the White City.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

Recent events ! What The Northern Bank Raid, Castlereagh Barracks break in,Stormont spy ring. Yes these RECENT EVENTS is whats putting the Unionists off, all done by the Provisionals. Yet no charges no court appearances, but they must have done it, it says so here. Den as to the attack on Megan in Belfast, this happened in the past (Days ago).
Next you'll be called a dinosaur like me and ard mhacha, we have to forget our past. Orchestrated British propaganda, thats what your recent events mount up to.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:31 PM

Could I lend a thoroughly Irish American Catholic "Amen" for that. Great post, Curator.

Mick

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:17 PM

I would love nothing better than to see lasting peace and a just society for the North of Ireland. I am a great believer in democracy and equal rights for all, but anyone who thinks that the loyalists are going to join the rest of Ireland at anytime in the future without a fight is barking up a gum tree. I know many loyalists, and was friends with some when I was younger and they will fight to the end and wiil not give a damn about majorities, minorities or whatever. Before Ireland is united there will be one mother of a fight. It may not come for a long time but it will come. If anyone thinks that a society that has had their way for over 80 years is going to change because some majority says so, then you do not understand the loyalist population. They will fight to keep the status quo just as republicans are fighting to change it. This is a war of attrition and with republicans having larger families (albeit not as large as in the past) it is only a matter of time before the loyalists are in the minority, but that does not mean that will slide peacefully into a united Ireland. I am sorry to repeat what I have said, but sooner or later there will be one hell of a ruckus and it will not be pretty and will not be for the faint hearted. The future of Ireland is bright but the immediate future is frightening. God help us all.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:58 AM

The gun and bomb have proved to be a failure and to be counterproductive. The violence has only deepened the previously existing sectarian divisions.         

There are different, rather more subtle, ways of "fighting" Jimmy. Nationalists should embrace these.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:34 AM

Irish PM confirms IRA link to bank haul (Guardian)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Den
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM

"Cash found during raids on an alleged IRA money-laundering ring." I think the word alleged sums up the article. There's nothing new here. Still speculation noone has proved anything.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:20 PM

"Alleged", Den, is the word the Guardian has to use as long as there has not been a court sentence yet. If that is what you mean then there will be nothing that may convince you before a verdict.

After a verdict I guess you'll tell us that there have been wrong verdicts.

So I guess the only acceptable proof for you would be an admission of guilt signed P. O'Neill.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

nah signed confessions to the brits aren't worth the paper they're forged on.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Barry O
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:34 PM

You must realize, Big Tim, that the situation in Northern Ireland is now in the "what's in it for me?" stage.

Membership of fascist paramilitary organizations (loyalist and nationalist alike) has given these thugs a position of power and influence within their respective communities (ie, one of the last things Robert McCartney would have heard in Magennis's pub was "Do you know who I am?"). You can understand their consternation when rumours of disbanding their organizations began to surface.

Gerry: "The war's over, lads. Go back to your normal lives".

Members of the "Movement" "But Gerry, this is our normal lives."

While a select few with paramilitary backgrounds can expect to make a reasonably good living as politicians, TV pundits, authors, and after-dinner speakers, most of the rank and file will find themselves looking at careers as bouncers, black taxi drivers, or – if they are lucky - eco-tourist guides in the Columbian jungle.

Not for them the holiday home in Donegal or Spain. The deafening silence from the patrons of Magennis's bar demonstrates the influence these criminals have in Northern Ireland, where they can kill without fear of being brought to justice. Of course they don't want the war/struggle/campaign to end. They're doing well out of it.

The Northern Bank raid? Just a walk in the park – and a little something to put by for the old age pension.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM

Jimmy C, You are right, How often has it to have to be said, the loyalists will never share power with any nationalist party.
In 1983 the Sunningdale agreement was another casualty, doomed by Unionist intransigence, and then it wasn`t Sinn Fein they were dealing with, it was John Hume`s SDLP, and no one could accuse the SDLP of having anything to do with the bomb or the bullet.

In another thread on the same subject I was told by all the sages of the Mudcat that I was wrong,when I said -there would never be a new deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP to form a power sharing agreement-, I was right of course I live here.

The simple facts are these, the Unionists still hold the purse strings, figures issused yearly prove this to be the case, after all, fifty years of power with no opposition, has ensured that they do.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:50 PM

The only certainty is that Ard will have the last word, and it won't be conciliatory.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:07 PM

Big Tim, I think the nationalist will embrace new ways but I am not worried about them. They signed on to the G.F.A. only to have the unionists shoot it down almost from the very start. About 75% of the agreement is still not in effect. They decommissioned loads of arms, all witnessed as per the agreement, that still was not good enough, they even offered to have a protestant clergyman witness another act of decommisioning but still no go. The unionists will never voluntarily share power, and will find all excuses for not doing so. They will never share power or join a united Ireland without one last big fight, and that is very sad.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:29 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Den
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:24 AM

You guess wrong Wolfgang. If concrete proof is found implicating the IRA's involvement and suspects are arrested and given a fair and transparent trial then that will be good enough for me. What are the chances that will happen though?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:31 AM

Has anyone got a suggestion as to how else $6 million in bank notes turned up in Cork?

No arrests is not evidence of innocence. A murder in Belfast was witnessed by dozens of people including friends of the victim, but there are no arrests because everyone is to terrified to give evidence.

It is not just rabid anti Catholic bigots who are accusing the IRA.
Long term Republican supporters like US statesmen Kennedy and King, with all their knowledge and connections in the North, have turned away from IRA.

Den, your story of teenage violence is appalling, but it happens everywhere. Teenagers beat up on each other because of their gang, ethnic origin, boy/girl friends, trainers etc. It is appalling but not really helpful in this context.

Curator, I am surprised that you compare the case of the SAS child killer the the McCartney murderers.
For none UK readers, the SAS soldier, just returned from Iraq, in an emotional and confused state, took it on himself to ease the passing of his own terminally ill son.
He did not ask his regiment to destroy evidence of the crime, or to terrorise witnesses.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:49 AM

For none UK readers, the SAS soldier, just returned from Iraq, in an emotional and confused state, took it on himself to ease the passing of his own terminally ill son.

You omitted he had asked his wife and other child to go visit relatives. He then spent all day drinking, before smothering his son.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Den
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:50 AM

Keith go look at my psot in the "Provisionals condemn McCartney murder" thread. I think you will see arrests in the McCartney case. You don't think sectarian violence has any relevance in the N. Ireland context. Well I have another "story" for you.

Carol Ann Kelly 12 years, Twinbrook, west Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Fusiliers.

Carol Ann was playing outside her home with some of her friends when a neighbour called her and asked her to run to shop for some milk for her baby. Carol Ann obliged and went off on the errand, but as she was walking back from the shop two British Army armoured vehicles entered the estate. The three friends were walking along a grassy bank leading to a row of terrace houses, where Carol Ann lived, when the armoured vehicles approached. One of the young girls with Carol Ann later described what occurred as the two British Army vehicles passed them. 'We could hear them (the soldiers) shouting about the five soldiers who had been killed that day. They shouted 'We will get one of your mates for our five mates today'. Then there was a shot, which hit McConvey's fence. I ducked behind the fence, and from where I was it seemed as though Carol Ann tried to make her way into Mrs Oscar's garden and then came the second shot, this being the shot I believed hit Carol Ann. I didn't realize she had been hit until I came out of Mrs McConvey's garden. I saw her lying on the ground with blood coming from her head...' and, '...her leg was curled up underneath her' She just literally fell on her back and the bag with the carton of milk was lying on the ground.'

Carol Ann's mother witnessed the shooting from the upstairs window of their home. She said she noticed the armoured vehicles approaching and then slowing down near their home and a gun going up in one of them. 'Of course' she said 'I thought nothing of it because that was usual, but then I heard the bang and seen the smoke coming out of the gun. ...I looked round to see where Carol Ann was and she was just falling back. She went straight down. I stood for a moment or two. I just couldn't take it in. My son Mark came running down the street and I heard him shouting 'Oh they've shot our Carol Ann, they've shot our Carol Ann'. Mrs Kelly found her daughter lying unconscious surrounded by a small group of people attempting to give first aid. A soldier in one of the army vehicles alighted from it and ran up the grassy bank towards the dying girl, apparently distressed and shouting, 'It's only a little girl, it's only a little girl.' He threw his gun down. He told the group of people he was a medic. At first people shouted at him and refused to let him near the girl but Mrs Kelly asked them to let him help if he could. The soldier's commander also got out of his jeep and began shouting at the soldier for trying to help the dying girl, and reprimanding him for throwing down his weapon.

The ambulance took sometime to arrive at the scene due to the actions of other British soldiers mounting a checkpoint at the entrance to the estate, who told the ambulance driver that no one had been hurt, forcing the driver to turn around before he was redirected to the scene by radio. Carol Ann was taken to the Royal Victoria Hospital, where she died without regaining consciousness two days later.

The British Army in statement concerning the shooting claimed the child was hit near Saint Luke's Primary School when soldiers at the school were attacked by a mob. The school was quite some distance from the where Carol Ann was actually hit, and therefore according to eyewitnesses, the Army statement was a total fabrication.

An inquest into Carol Ann Kelly death was held nearly a year later, in early May 1982. None of the soldiers involved in the incident attended the hearing, their statements being read out by representatives. In their statements they again claimed the child was shot near Saint Luke's School during a riot. However, civilian eyewitnesses, who attended the hearing, all rejected completely the allegations of any rioting at the time the child was shot, and were also adamant that the scene of the shooting was near Carol Ann's home and not the school.

All the civilian witnesses described the area being quiet; the armoured vehicles speeding along the road; Carol Ann and her friends walking along the grass bank; then two bangs, and the injured child shouting 'Somebody help me,' before collapsing.

The coroner in his 'findings' said that Carol Ann Kelly was an innocent bystander when she was 'struck on the head by the second of two plastic bullets fired as she passed Aspen Park.' By accepting the child was struck near Aspen Park the coroner had disregarded the soldiers' statements that the shooting took place near the school, but he believed that "technically a riot had been going on", when more than three people had been gathered in an unlawful fashion. Some missiles were thrown', he said, 'and the plastic bullets fired on that act. Whether this gives rise to any criminal or civil liability is not for me to say.'

The coroner rejected an appeal for another inquest in front of a jury by the Kelly family legal representative because it had come too late in the proceedings.

No British soldiers were ever charged in connection with the killing of Carol Ann Kelly.

Some cover-ups use forensics and intimidation other use press releases, intimidation and British Justice. You see Keith you have to deal with the whole ball of wax.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 02:09 PM

There is sectarian violence, and there is teenage yobbery.
That is a terrible story about the Carol Kelly lass. No one can justify or explain it away. It saddens me every time it is repeated.
Keith.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:04 PM

Didn't know the sas man had just come home from Iraq, so should there not be some sort of warning issued about soldiers suffering from fatigue ? could they not have just sent him direct to Ulster ?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 03:19 PM

What a pity that Keith A is not an MP, fair play to you Keith, if only we could have had the same fair play.