The Northern Bank Raid

Subject: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

If you read some of the threads relating to issues about the North of Ireland, there are a number of people out there who seem to know with certainty that The Provisional Irish Republican Army carried out the raid. Can they please state what they base their knowledge on ? Is it because they heard it somewhere ? Is it because Tony Blair said they did it ?(W.M.D. Tony). Is it because Bernie Ahearn said it ? (His party know nothing about dodgy dealings) or it because an Independant body, elected by the British Government who also fund them, said the P.I.R.A. carried it out? Put the proof you vomit out of your mouth into fact. I do not believe they had any part in it, as stated in their statement of December 2004. The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland. If the repackaged R.U.C. knew who did it, they would of had them in by now, after all they arrested many Republicans for nothing over thirty years. Go on you lot out there STATE YOUR PROOF.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Chris Green
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:32 AM

Should be in BS.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:20 AM

Should be added to old thread

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:32 PM

Curator,

I'll have a little of whatever it is you're smoking. Seems to detach one completely from reality. Oh, and while you're at it, lend me the blinkers too.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:03 PM

yes should be in BS and some of us including myself served in northern ireland and lost friends.Making SINN FEIN look golder then gold is kinda narrow seems your post is very pro IRA this is not the place for such stuff P.S what planet do you come from.

Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

You are wasting your time.

They grandly tell you that you can't possibly understand anything. My suggestion that religious ubiquity was part of their problems was shouted down on two occasions. next thing they're using the term protestant like its a swear word.

Just leave them to it.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Tyke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM

Oh I'm against the death penaly and I think every one deserves a fair trial. Have the IRA shot themselves in the foot offering to shot people with out one? So why even try to debate this issue here it's not the place.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:29 PM

This could be a lively thread, and I concu it should be in the BS group. PLease note that BS in this context doesn't mean "BS," just non-musical. It's a "convention" willingly accepted by most of the family from experience. There have been many really great threads here on a varieyt in "Irish socio/politico/etc" topics that didn't start out "musical," but became that way by the good graces of the marvelous folks who inhabit this (and that) place. The Campsite at Drumcree thread comes to mind.

COULD A JOE CLONE BE SO KIND AS TO MOVE THIS TO THE BS COLLECTION?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: belfast
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:17 PM

I think we all agree that this should be below the line.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:44 AM

This was about the fifth such bank raid in Northern Ireland in the last couple of years. Most have been blamed, until now, not on the mainstream IRA, but on "dissident" Republicans. The two governments played these down, not wanting to upset the poitical process, thus "massaging the egos of the terrorists", as one commentator has put it. However, the scale of the Northern raid made it not brushable under the carpet, and so both governments have decided to take the initiative.

The worst aspect of the raids is the holding of family members of bank officials at gunpoint for 24, or more, hours by men in space suits. Meantime the employee is sent off to work and told to bring back the money or his family members will be killed.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 02:52 AM

Paddymac proposes this thread should be moved to the non-music section.

It is so moved.


But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:02 AM

And one poor woman left out in the woods on a freezing night.
We spectators can not produce evidence Guest Curator, but the scale of the operation suggest a large organisation and command structure.
Could such an organisation co exist alongside the known paramilitaries?
We note that not just the Irish government but also their police force are adamant IRA did it. I am sure they have a network of sources up north.
Read between the lines of our members within the Nationalist community. Their sympathy is with the republican movement, but they are not saying IRA is innocent on this. I get the impression, albeit from a distance, that everyone knows the IRA did it and only deny it with a wink and a smile.
As for your comment that the police would have had them in by now, there is no point going to trial with no witnesses.
There were 70 people in the pub when the popular Robert McCartney was mutilated and murdered. Every one of them says they were in the toilet at the time.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

I see our friend reckons that the Irish Police force knew it was the Provisional Army that did the job, would that be the Donegal branch ?they are up north, no it couldn't of been them, because they were all in court at the the being charged with setting boys up with fake evidence. Read that report on the net. Still awaiting the proof it was sanctioned by the Council.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:00 AM

These are questions not assertions:

Could it be that the IRA has morphed permanently into a criminal enterprise under cover of political freedom fighters, that those involved are more or less permanently involved and unable to abandon is because of its institutional status as well as the profits from its criminal activities?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:14 AM

I think our guest has a great name..the Curator. "A keeper or custodian of a museum". A museum of ideas and attitudes long outdated. Leave him with his mustiness and longing for what's gone by and his bitterness at its passing.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:04 AM

Still awaiting evidence the Provisionals were involved, it's a long time coming. Please stop posting silly remarks and state your evidence, your like advertisements during a good film. Get on with your proof please.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,A Realist
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM

"Could it be that the IRA has morphed permanently into a criminal enterprise under cover of political freedom fighters". No, they haven't morphed. It's what they've always been.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

"But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song...."

Joe Offer probably intended his remark as a light-hearted comment in an otherwise serious discussion but it is worth remembering that those responsible for the robbery and kidnapping made it clear that they were prepared to kill those taken hostage.

Can you imagine anyone in this forum suggesting that the exploits of kidnappers in Iraq might make "a great folk song"? Just as we abhor "Muslim" terrorists, shouldn't we abhor "Christian" terrorists too?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 06:56 AM

Come on gentlemen, I am still awaiting the proof The Provisional Command was involved. So many of you were so sure a week or two ago and now you are silent.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:17 AM

Again Curator, no one here can give you evidence.
We are entitled to our suspicions, and they are just that.
There are no witnesses, just as there are none to that murder in a crowded bar.
The murder that the IRA at first also tried to deny involvement in.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

Keith, I know no one can give me evidence, because simply it's not there to be found, but if you read all the posts here one would think that a couple of volunteers and an O.C. had been charged after an admission. Regarding this ongoing McCartney (get the boot in) story, the Command for that area did not try to deny it.They made it clear that no active service unit was involved in any operation duty on the night in question.As to no witnesses coming forward, if you want me to recall for you an incident in which a young girl of 11 was murdered by a British soldier firing a rubber bullet into her face when no public disturbance took place, there was just the girl and two 10 year old friends in the street.None of the other seven soldiers in the mobile patrol saw anything, two claimed they didn't hear the shot !
The murdering bastard wasn't discharged from the British Army. Then again why would he be, he was ideal for the job.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:02 PM

Yes, that happened.
Abhorent.
I mentioned the recent murder only because it illustrates why it is so hard to get convictions.
Of the hundreds of murders in the troubles, half have no convictions.

Finally, although there is no hard proof against an individual for a conviction in court, there is ample evidence for reasonable suspicion that the individuals involved in the Northern Bank raid were acting for and on behalf of the Provisional IRA.

As someone else said, even the dogs in the street know who did it.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Seems like the PSNI raided several private homes in the follow-up to the bank heist, all of which were residences of noted nationalists or suspected sympathisers, and came up empty handed, at least as far as the bank issues was concerned. My suspicion is that they merely used the bank heist as an excuse for another of their massive invasions of privacy. Later, I recall reading that actual traceable bank notes from the heist were found in two places: one was a barn in County Cork, and the other was a Policeman's (sorry, P-person's) club in NI. Police, not suprisingly, called the later find a "plant," while I don't recall any such comment about the Cork find. For a useful paradigm, interested folks might want to google the Castlereagh incident of a couple years ago. The IRA remain a useful "Boogey man" for British and NI officialdom - but that's an old, old story.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:38 PM

I guess the premise, Curator, is that if there is no proof they could not have done it? Nice to see someone with such faith in the British judicial system. I thought you Irish had no faith at all in it? And there was me thinking that the police would not pursue the case for purely politcal reasons. Ah well, just goes to show how wrong I can be. Thanks for restoring my faith in the system.

Now, about reviewing certain Guildford or Birmingham cases...

:D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:53 PM

Dave,

I think that there does not have to be any hard evidence to say who was responsible, although proving it in a court of law may be difficult, but surely with all the accusations against Sinn Fein and the I/R.A. there must be at least a tiny smidgen of hard evidence to warrant the accusations. I say let them publish whatever proof (no matter how little) they have. Just publish what they have or else look elsewhere.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:42 AM

You're quite right of course, Jimmy. They should publish what little proof they have. I have not seen any but my guess is that it would go along the lines of guilt by implication. If any organisation, IRA, PIRA, UDF, Mafia or Triad, is known to be involved in criminal activities. ANY criminal activities. Then they should not be surprised when the policeman comes knocking at the door everytime a crime is commited in their neighbourhood. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this what has happened here?

Just noticed a line in the opening diatribe btw. The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland. If this is indeed the case, where is the proof? Has Curator not just commited the very sin he accuses others of?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:39 PM

Somebody did it Dave, and I am stating here and now that it was not done by the Provisional Irish Republican Army, nor was it done by any active service unit working alone outside of a district command. I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement. I am telling you that the Army council did not order the raid. neither did any unit command or active service unit take part. And as for Sinn Fein being involved, thats just silly.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:49 PM

I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement.

Much as I hate to plagurise anyone else's post, Curator, didn't someone say very early in thread "STATE YOUR PROOF"..?

;-)

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:48 PM

I think the onus should be on " proof as to who did it' and not proof as to who did not do it. ?. I believe in a court of law they have to prove the guilt and not the innocence ?????>

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:43 AM

I agree wholeheartedly, Jimmy. However, this is not a court of law. It is some friends having a civilised discusion. It is not even a discussion about who did it as far as I know. It starts as a critisism of anyone having the temerity to even suggest that they felt the PIRA committed the robbery. It goes along the lines of 'unless you have proof you should not say anything'.

This does not, apparantly, apply to everything. Curator goes on to say "The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland." and "I know only too well what British undercover agents are capable of. And yes we do look on it as the work of someone out to discredit the movement." The 'forces woring to undermine' and 'British undercover agents' are not, it seems, to be awarded the same leeway.

I have no axe to grind about either side entrenched in this struggle. I just wonder why the Curator requires this proof of colusion for one side yet blatantly disregards the burden of proof for the opposition?

Not, it seems to me, the rationale of a fair minded person?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:47 AM

Yes I did say please STATE YOUR PROOF, because every other post said that the Provisionals were responsible. So many seemed to know with certainty who did it. I only wanted to know how they knew and what they knew, and had I missed something ?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

The raid was done by forces working to undermine the wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland.

Tell you what then, Curator. I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

:D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:59 AM

may i politely suggest another significant point which is being ignored by most pundits, as far as i know?
Sinn fein MPs in the westminster parliament have been stripped of their parliamentary allowances specifically becuas eof the Northern bank raid.
No due process. No charges. No evidence of a Sinn Fein connection. No trial. Just high-handed punishment, meted out by a Government which increasingly seems to want to take the law into its own dubious care - as opposed to the hands of the judicary. (see Anti terrorist Bill earlier this week)
A slippery slope, I fear.
What if it was YOUR group (minority, political party, activist group etc ) which had official sanctions imposed upon it - without a shred of evidence, charges or a fair hearing. And nobody seems to be making a fuss. THAT's the REAL cause for concern here, surely?
D

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:04 AM

Would these be the same Sinn Fein MPs who refuse to take the oath that allows them to actually take their seats and vote in Parliment? Is it astounding to not pay people allowances if they are not doing the job they were elected to do? Just a little point...

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM

Sorry, Curator, I don't have the proof. But I do believe that an organisation which recruited semi-psyopaths and brain washed them into full blown pschos whose function it was to carry out "fund-raisers" and kill people in the process without any qualms of conscience can not expect us to believe that they have pulled some magic switch to deactivate these zombies. It is quite understandable that many of those "operatives" who now see their masters living the high life with celebrity status while they are unemployable and left out in the cold would resort to "earning" a living by the only method they know.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:28 PM

paranoid android I think you'll find that ex brit troops get a pension. You did mean them didnt you?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Meself Alone said:

"But gee, "Northern Bank Raid" sounds like it could be a great folk song...."

Joe Offer probably intended his remark as a light-hearted comment in an otherwise serious discussion but it is worth remembering that those responsible for the robbery and kidnapping made it clear that they were prepared to kill those taken hostage.

Can you imagine anyone in this forum suggesting that the exploits of kidnappers in Iraq might make "a great folk song"? Just as we abhor "Muslim" terrorists, shouldn't we abhor "Christian" terrorists too?

Can you imagine something as big as ANY of these events not making it into song? The point of view is a separate issue, but of course this is the material of song.

I agree with Joe, it sounds like a song. For those of us on this side of the pond, the Northern Ireland bank robbery isn't what immediately comes to mind under this thread name.

Jesse James made his own raid on a northern bank in 1876 that caused a bit of a stir here. Historians are still sorting out what all happened during Jessie's career.

A search of the DT comes up with the following:

The Digitrad Results

0.8510 - JESSE JAMES (I WONDER WHERE MY POOR OLD JESSE'S GONE)
0.8510 - BAND OF JESSE JAMES
0.8351 - JESSE JAMES (3)
0.8351 - JESSE JAMES
0.8169 - ONE DIME BLUES
0.7967 - TRUE BALLAD OF JESSE JAMES
0.7967 - RALEIGH AND SPENCER
0.7967 - BEAR CREEK BLUES
0.7742 - LONNIGAN'S WIDOW
0.7742 - LONE ROCK SONG
0.7742 - JESUS CHRIST
0.7742 - J.B. MARCUM
0.7742 - INFLUENZA
0.7742 - BLUE WATER LINE
0.7742 - BELLE STARR

Just so you know.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

"The wonderful work Sinn Fein has done for the nationalist people of Ireland". What was that?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

I have heard our volunteers called some names, but the above at least brings a smile. Ask your British soldiers who served their queen in my country, did they ever under estimate their enemy ? Watch a two part programme coming on channel four in two weeks looking at the creation of an active service unit and their actions in London in 1974 and 75.The then head of the anti terrorist squad called them intelligent dedicated men who the public should not dismiss as madmen. Sorry Para Anoroid that you look upon the men in the units as in need of sociopathic help, you should go out and meet some, I think you would change your outlook. And no, none of the volunteers look at their OC's and envy their life style, because it's no differant to their own. You really should really stop reading those British red tops.And no, none of the Provisional Command was involved in the robbery. Happy St, Patricks day to all of you, even the ones that don't like me.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:48 PM

And a happy St Pats to yourself curator. I like you!

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Meself Alone
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:28 PM

"Sorry Para Anoroid that you look upon the men in the units as in need of sociopathic help, you should go out and meet some, I think you would change your outlook."

No thanks, Curator. Robert McCartney met a few in Mageniss's bar some weeks back and ended up being butchered in the street. Wonderful patriots!

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:46 AM

Bunnahabhainn, I take your point - but if all MPs are entitled to the allowance, that clearly includes the SF ones too. You can't just remove that allowance (or any other statutory entitlement) just because of someone's views on how well they do the job...otherwise most of the House would be suspect ;¬)

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM

As stated Meself Alone,this was not an operational matter. Pity your not as vocal towards members of the British Army and re packaged R.U.C. Is it just anything concerning the movement that gets you fired up ? I wonder why ? Then again I think I know why.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM

Not an operational matter in that it was not premeditated, but the sanitisation of the scene was carried out as an operation was it not?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 02:03 PM

Also, it not being operational would hardly make Meself's butchering more bearable.

Curator, with your familiar use of military terms and abbreviations, you seem to be saying, with a nod, a wink and a finger laid along the nose, that you have inside knowledge and therefor know that PIRA did not do the job.

However, even if that were true and you were not just a fantasist, we already have the denial. That denial is as hard to believe as the denial that your people were assisting the Columbian terrorists. That they were just there to study the bird life and it was just coincidence that they suddenly started using PIRA style bombs with electronic timers.(and using them very indiscriminately.)

Sure the robbery could have been done by MI5, The Boy Scouts, or the Easter Bunny, but PIRA does seem the more likely culprit. If not why not?

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

Yes Keith, I am saying that the Army Council did not give sanctioned authorization for any unit to do the Northern Bank Raid.And yes I am saying that no unit under command was working freelance either. There was an investagation carried out by the command structure within days and their results were conclusive. NO MEMBER OF THE NORTHERN PROVISIONAL COMMAND WAS INVOLVED. And before you start, no there was no involvement by members of any other command either. All of those who are blaming the Provisionals are wrong, as in time you will find. And on another point, because a member of the organisation killed a man during a pub brawl, why do you keep blaming the Provisionals for this man's death ? An S.A.S. man killed a child last week,why is the Special Air Service not getting it in the neck from you? What an individual does in his own time cannot be attributed to the regiment/unit that he belongs to. In the case of the volunteer, the command Did consider dealing with it, but as the ceasefire of 1994 (reconstituted 1998) is still in recognition, an action would have contravened this. Something the family were made aware of and they were still prepared to take action.As to the three men in Columbia,again there is nothing to link them to the provisionals. One was shot by the police as a teenager, who later cleared his name in court of any crime, the other two had been members of Sinn Fein on a political fact finding tour.And the electronic discharge switches used on Frac devices have been used in eleven other countries before the arrest of the three, so anyone could have helped develope their use.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:48 AM

I must admit that my impression while watching a Martin McGuinness interview shortly after the robbery, was that his denial was realistic. I know that he's a shrew and able politician who will always fight his corner (and not always honestly) but on this occasion, he seemed genuinely shocked, bemused and angry.

So who did it? A republican splinter group? This robbery has gained international headlines because of the amount of money stolen, but whoever carried out the previous similar raids were well capable of doing the Northern. It just took a litle longer to carry out all the extra money.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,The Curator
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM

Big Tim you would need to ask one of the above experts who did it, The police service haven't yet arrested and charged anyone for it, but I'm sure Greg or Keith are just days away from making an announcement based on the information available to them.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: GUEST,A Realist
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:43 AM

Time will tell. I look forward to reading the 'Apologies' thread. But I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: The Northern Bank Raid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:11 AM

Apart from Columbia, where else do Sinn Feiners visit on 'political fact finding tours' ?