BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?

Subject: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM

William Pitt is from Truthout, a liberal watchdog type of organization. He relates this story:

"...I was a few pages into the book when a man with a gray beard and a battered white outback hat sat down beside me and ordered a drink. I have this terrible habit of talking to strangers – yes, I am not the guy you want to sit next to on the plane – so I struck up a conversation. Two hours later, I finally crept back into the night with my head spinning, and not from the beer. I had just finished talking politics with a true-blue American fascist.

"He first introduced himself to me as a self-proclaimed 'redneck' and used his professional name, which I will not repeat because, frankly, though he scared the cheese out of me with his beliefs, he was a personable enough fellow and I do not want to burn him behind his back. It seems this man is a fairly well-known folk singer. He had an album of his in his back pocket, and gave it to me. I have it sitting here on my desk; the back cover has a picture of him feeding a horse on the porch of some ancient wilderness cabin."

A Folk Singer's Views

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

It reads like a journalism exercise, where someone is asked to write something in the style of another writer, this comes across as a poor imitation of Ernest Hemingway
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:34 PM

Dunno, Ebbie, but he's from your state.

Pitt says: I'm not sure where the South fits in here
The singer was from Alaska.

But regardless of where he's from, we can probably rest assured that it's not Tom Paxton, John McCutcheon, Arlo Guthrie, or anybody named Seeger.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:23 PM

Bee-dubya, can you show me that quote please? Maybe I'm impatient and rushing (which I am, the cat is getting very cross about the delay to his food) but I can't see it at a first glance.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:34 PM

Feed the cat.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 04:02 PM

Done

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:15 PM

"I'm not sure where the South fits in here
The singer was from Alaska."

That's the quote. And I still can't find it. I've read the whole blog. Am I missing something or has the blog been edited?

The description sounds like Kris Kristofferson - but "Alaska"?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

let's see, an Alaska folksinger with a gray beard and outback hat who was over entertaining the troops and uses a "professional name?" Must be "Hobo Jim" Varsos.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM

I found it using the basic MS search function. It's not in the original blog entry, it's an a follow-up posting by the author on down the page.

Claire

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM

Finally got it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:38 PM

Sorry, Richard, I was away from the computer for a couple of hours.

Looks like Jim Varsos is the guy in question. In this article it says:

The high country of Afghanistan reverberated with the sounds of the Last Frontier in April as renowned Alaska folk singer "Hobo Jim" Varsos traded in his weathered cowboy hat for a helmet and Kevlar vest to entertain U.S. troops stationed there.

Varsos, a popular musician who mainly performs on the Kenai Peninsula and is officially known as Alaska's Balladeer by legislative decree, took his one-man show to soldiers of the 501st Parachute Infantry. Many members of the unit are Alaskans.

In other articles that Google found he is referred to as an "eccentric" and an "anarchist".

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:40 PM

The danger of the Internet and bloggers. Some guy says he met a "fascist", but doesn't want to give his name. But you will all know him, and then gives clues but never says the name. And folks just suck in. One can't be quoted, because no one has said a name. I hate this shit. It ain't much different than McCarthyism. If this person had any integrity, they would name names or shut the hell up. And what do we do? Start a thread and keep the unsubstantiated crap going.

Just my tuppence worth,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:00 PM

Hmm.

If you give your political opinions in a pub you really can't expect them to be kept secret, can you?

Mind you I was once covertly taken to see and Irish girl singer, told to sit down and shut up because my voice would give me away, told to stand up and mouth to the words of some IRA anthem if I wanted not to get a political pickaxe handle beating, and told to shut up when the girl's husband told the table we were at that she sang flat that night and he would give her a good hiding when they got home to teach her not to do it again.

Sometimes it is safer to shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:16 PM

You probably mean The Irish National anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Perhaps we should not judge those we have never met and call them names?

Perhaps we should also practice what we preach?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM

Big Mick, William Pitt is the editor of Truthout. He is well known for backing his mouth with his money. This article is the first one of his that I've read where he recounts an encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:18 PM

Then he should name names and stand by what he writes. What he does is just another form of that which he supposedly detests. If it is worth taking a stand, then do so with facts and not inuendo.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM

I assumed you meant the UK home secretary from the thread title. A pleasent surprise to find you didn't mean someone in charge of a countries police..

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:07 PM

from the general gist of the article and from what else is out on the Net..I don't think the singer in question gives a hoot how his views are characterized! And, if he's waving around a CD of his to strangers in a Pub while spouting conspiracy stuff about Al Queda being behind the Oklahoma City Bombing... seems he was kinda asking for it. I agree that the dude should have just named him or, if not naming him, could have left out the bit about what the CD looked like. Hobo Jim could try to sue if he felt so inclined, but under US Libel laws, he not likely win.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

In reading a link for Hobo Jim, I came across this on a blog: "The night began at 6:00pm with "Hobo" Jim entertaining the crowd. He is a very popular singer here in Alaska and performed the famous "I did, I did, I did the Iditarod Trail". "

Source

It doesn't appear that Alaska Mike is getting proper credit for that song, at least among some crowds, does it?   

As for Hobo Jim being a"very popular singer" in Alaska- he may be, but I've never heard of him. Quite sure he doesn't come to the Folk Festival or at least he doesn't perform in it.

I have noticed that human beings - me, included - are not shocked or surprised when someone quotes them correctly. If Hobo Jim really is an anarchist or a fascist or any other kind of ist (although he may not recognize his views as such), he already knows it and would probably defend it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 11:03 PM

Ebbie, my friend Hobo Jim wrote the famous "I did, I did, I did the Iditarod Trail". "
And "Fishin' For Chickens." among others.
Alaska Mike, my other Alaska friend wrote "Iditarod, Iditarod, Ooh, Ooh, Iditarod."
Two different songs.
And yes, the guy in the article sure sounds like ol' Hobo.
Can't we have right-wing conservative folkies as well as liberal, left-wing folkies?
The author should have used his name, though.
As Hobo would be the first one to say: "There ain't no such thing as bad ink. Just spell my name right."

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 11:44 PM

Oh! Seamus, I didn't know that- sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 12:00 AM

As someone who has been a working journalist, I don't much care for calling people names like "facist", unless they describe themselves that way. For one thing it's libel per se, and likely to get expensive. For another it's better if you let a jackass be himself, and assume our readers are wise enough to spot a jackass when they see one.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:21 AM

here here ladyjean.

I've seen Hobo Jim perform more than once over the years and I've never heard him 'wax' (or sing) political.

I have heard views such as those expressed in the article from various nut cases, none of whom could sing as well as Hobo. It is not beyond possibility that he was making it up as he went along. I've heard a co-worker in an office building in Anchorage describing his igloo hut and dogteam over the phone to a credulous salesgirl in Florida.

There's a wonderful radio show (Wait Wait Don't Tell Me) in the States where newspeople rehash the week's news and make up news stories to see if they can make someone believe them over the real news. Maybe Hobo Jim is a fan.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:45 AM

The article is a very good demonstration of how much could be between the lines and what sort of critical questions one might ask. The one non-statement by the un-named musician I object to most:

"Finally, when I asked him if everything happening here and abroad makes him fear the rise of some kind of Americanized fascism, he shook his head. Fascism needs to happen here, he said, and soon. It is the only thing that can save America."

Please notice that this does NOT include a quotation. It's paraphrasing, and paraphrasing, to me, is a red flag that spinning has been done. One can rewrite this non-quotation to be much less evil-sounding:

Finally, when I asked him if everything happening here and abroad makes him fear the rise of some kind of Americanized fascism, he shook his head. These things need to happen here, he said, and soon. It is the only thing that can save America.

The entire article consists of paraphrasing, which IMO, is why the individual's name isn't used. It's not what the musician said, it's Pitt's interpretation of it. The paraphrasing combined with hiding the source's identity means his opinions won't be clarified, and no one will ask the guy "So what did you REALLY say?" People are prevented from looking into the other side of the story, including other reporters and possibly lawyers. At the same time, there are obviously enough hints for people to figure it out on their own, even if no one can prove who it is.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the article is. That fascism exists in the US? Duh. That you meet some weird people in bars? Well, yes - and the ones who don't do you bodily harm may just be reporters. What's left that may be considered a purpose? The article calls someone a fascist in a manner that can both (possibly) protect the author from litigation and provide enough hints to ruin someone's career. It sounds personal to me. It sounds like "I don't like this guy or his opinions, and I'm gonna get him."

I don't like guy's opinions (as presented by Pitt) either, but whether he's a 'fascist'... I've known other folks to get into somewhat heated conversations - when drinking in a bar and elsewhere - and shoot off their mouths. Who hasn't? Personally, I've made enough ironic, sarcastic, and generally over-the-top comments that I'd be in some deep doo-doo if a person really wanted to 'get' me.

As for priorities, I'm not as concerned with the beliefs of individuals as I am with how they wield whatever power they have. In this case, I think bloggers with agendas who spout off in public are scarier than musicians who sing apolitical stuff in public and spout off in bars. I think it's best to demand truth of everyone, question everyone, even the people who seem to be 'on my side' -- ESPECIALLY them.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:17 AM

As for priorities, I'm not as concerned with the beliefs of individuals as I am with how they wield whatever power they have. In this case, I think bloggers with agendas who spout off in public are scarier than musicians who sing apolitical stuff in public and spout off in bars. I think it's best to demand truth of everyone, question everyone, even the people who seem to be 'on my side' -- ESPECIALLY them.

Not too easy to do this if most of those who are on your side choose to be and can remain anonymous, whilst wielding their power and imposing their judgement upon others. Those that do this and those that support this double standard whilst critising unaccountability in others - are perhaps most scary of all?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:48 AM

is that a well known American expression - he scared the cheese out of me.

I could do with Hobo Jim to get down my cholesterol level.

does it work with all sorts of cheese. would a mild upset like a burst paper bag behind you when you weren't expecting it achievethe same ends.

anybody else had the cheese scared out of them.

I hope William Pitt the Elder had the good manners to pay for the cd.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM

Pretty nasty set of opinions, but they are the kind of opinions that were around before Fascism and survive after Fascism. That doesn't make them any less repulsive. But I don't think the label helps - it just gets people pointing out ways in which historical Fascism was different from this particular package of half-digested hatreds and obsessions.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM

FWIW, we don't actually know if the un-named "folk singer" is Hobo Jim. (Unless someone here has the CD with that particular jacket)

I have written William Pitt with these concerns. If I get an answer I'll post it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM

"I hope William Pitt the Elder had the good manners to pay for the cd."   Why should he have paid for it when the man "gave it to me"?
.......................................

One thing, you can't necessarily assume that just because someone says he's a guy on the record sleeve, and presumably looks a bit like him, he actually is him. That doesn't sound like any kind of "anarchist" I've ever run into.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Interesting too that if this is "Hobo Jim", who is by legislative decree the official balladeer of Alaska, he is advertised on some sites as a Nashville musician who spends his summers in Alaska. Got it good I guess, both States claim him.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:24 PM

Jeri said, in part:

QUOTE:

. . . he shook his head. Fascism needs to happen here, he said, and soon. It is the only thing that can save America.

Please notice that this does NOT include a quotation. It's paraphrasing. UNQUOTE

On the contrary, it looks very much like it is intended as a direct quotation. Sure, he doesn't put the little marks fore and aft, but the syntax is right to come out of that speaker's mouth, and nothing in the material from you I set out suggests that it's a paraphrase.

The "little marks", when they are used, are definitely an indication that what's contained within them is represented as a quotation, but they are not absolutely necessary.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM

Oh, well, sure there are fascist folkies. I have a good friend who qualifies, and I normally call him Johnny Death. He loves Bob Dylan, Elvis, and Sinatra, and basically dislikes just about everything that has happened since 1960 (except for Bob Dylan).

His views are even farther to the radical right than the fellow quoted in the article. He would not only deport all the Muslims, he would also deport all the Blacks..."back to Africa". He would deport the Asians back to Asia. He would cease all foreign aid. He would reintroduce capital punishment on a much expanded basis. He would like to find a way to kill all the bad people, if only such an effort could be properly organized.

Amazingly enough, he is also a nice guy, a loyal friend, and a good man to know in every way. I can also disagree totally with him on most socio-political things and we still get along.

His most severe and livid hatred is reserved for the government. He hates the Canadian government with a hatred that would be hard to describe. He feels that they have sold out and destroyed the nation with their liberal policies.

You have to remember that most people's stronger political opinions are really based on the perception that someone has hurt them in some way. That's true for Johnny, and it's true for most people. People just get different ideas about who it was who hurt them, and why, that's all.

He and I both figure the ruling system hurt us, but we seem to interpret it along somewhat divergent lines of thinking. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

Not the Scots back to Scotland, though, eh, LH?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:48 PM

LH - That was well expressed

Carol - Not to quash your funnin', but a few weeks ago I visited the first working ironworks in Anglo-America, and the first set of workers were filled out by Scots prisoners of war taken by the Puritans. I found that fascinating. It was considered a major multicultural challenge at the time, because ultimately they entered the community (and by now have ta'en o'er!)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 07:55 PM

...and Johhny Death more recently than many. He was born and raised in Scotland. Interesting bit of history you've got there, though. In which war were they taken prisoner?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 08:50 PM

I pointed out that bit about the Scots to Johnny. I said, "Then all you damned Scots ought to be repatriated back along with the fecking English and Irish and the other whites and give this country back to its real people...the Indians." He grinned. "I follow your line of reasoning on that," he said, "But it's too late for the Indians."

What it basically amounts to is, he would like Canada to be the way it was when he first arrived here in the 50's. It was (aside from Quebec) an English-Scottish dominated society with much old British Empire tradition. It was not yet what later became the "multicultural" society. It was smaller and less populated. Toronto was very clean, very traditional, Anglo-Saxon, "Toronto the Good". There were no panhandlers, no trash on the sidewalks, almost no violent crimes, and so on.

It was white-bread-ville.

Johnny can't accept the fact that those days are gone forever (mostly due to tremendous world growth in both population and technology, and he figures that someone is to blame. And that someone, for him, is the "liberals" and the government.

Strangely enough, the Canadian government has not yet put Johnny on their list of "dangerous subversives to be watched closely". At least I don't think so. This may be because he has never actually committed a harmful act against anyone, and probably never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Willie-O
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:08 PM

Also I guess he's a white guy eh...who obviously isn't shy about his opinions but doesn't spout them on a platform wearing a swastika armband.

Until you gave him a name I was wondering why you would be hanging around with Ernst Zundel...guess we won't have him to kick around any more. I'm real broke up about it too.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:38 AM

Obviously, send the Blacks back to Africa- they never wanted to come anyway. The Asians to China, India etc. The Latinos to Mexico, Cuba and so on. The Kanucks to Poland. Minnesota to Sweden, Cajuns to France. The Irish to Ireland. The English to Plymouth. And so on.

But why only America? In Britain, we could send the Saxons back to Germany, the Normans back to France, the Scots back to Ireland, a whole bunch of people back to Denmark...

Why stop there? Send the Celts back to Gaul, the Gauls back to central Europe, send the Jews back to Ur of the Chaldees, send the Red Indians back to Asia (except the ones who are really Welsh), the Asians back to Africa, oops we all end up there, it's getting a bit crowded.

The real problem with fascists is that they only remember their history as far as it suits them.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:39 AM

The point I was trying to make is that the journalist had already decided form his conversation,he was going to earn his living that week insulting the poor misguided sod - possibly wrecking his career, such as it was.

the least he could have done is pay for the cd. Its not the Michael Jackson/Paul MacCartney echelon of our profession that goes round handing out cds for review in person - I have found.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:58 AM

Ha! You have hit upon the crux of the problem, Paul Burke...

"The real problem with fascists is that they only remember their history as far as it suits them."

Willie-O - Well, unlike Ernst Zundel, my friend Johnny does not labour until the particularly attackable post-World War II designation of "Germanophile" or "Neo-Nazi"... He identifies with Scottish-English-Irish background, and has never shown any particular sympathy for Nazis that I know of. He wants to return society to a past era when his people (Anglo-Saxons) appeared to be calling the cultural shots and running things in what was for him, a homogeneous and familiar manner.

It's tribalism. I find that most cases of extreme political prejudice are based on rigid perceptions of tribal identity. People who are willing to think of the whole human race as their tribe are far more forgiving than those who narrow it down to a rigid and localized definition.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM

As a southerner, I've come to accept that my own social and political views may not be shared by many of the people with whom I sometimes play music. They're not the people with whom I play regularly, but those with whom I cross paths at parties or jam sessions hosted by mutual friends. It doesn't usually bother me because the reason we're at the same place is to play music, not to discuss politics. When, occasionally, someone starts spouting jingoism and racism I just go find someplace else to be. Chances are that if it's a big enough get-together that the pinkos and the rednecks are intermingling, there'll be more than one jam going on. I don't respect their opinions, but I do respect their rights to hold them and I don't get confrontational with them.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM

And Goering was a nice jolly man who was fond of dogs and enjoyed singing. And Hitler, he painted pretty enough water colour pictures. And they'd both risked their lives fighting for their country. You just had to avoid letting the conversation drift round to political stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM

Well said, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

Ha! Well, we might all love Herrman Goering if he'd won the war, McGrath (assuming we were here in that case), and we'd all be talking about what a dreadful man that bastard Churchill was instead... :-)

Not that I'm suggesting Goering was an angel or that the Nazis were not a blight on humanity...but what I am suggesting is that our opinions are strongly shaped by what our culture has chosen to put in front of us in the way of information about past events. It's usually very slanted in one way or another, and victors do everything they can to paint their foes in the darkest way possible...in order to justify the slaughter and sacrifice.

Everyone has the potential for both good and evil behaviour. Few (if any) people can be defined by only one extreme. One thing you'll notice is that most people's behaviour tends to get worse (and more violent) when they are losing control of a situation. The same is true of animals. The reason for that is fear.

My friend Johnny is obviously deeply afraid of the changes he has seen happening in the society around him in the last few decades, and so are most other people, but we all have our own ways of reacting to it and dealing with it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,hobo jim
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:12 AM

sorry it took me a year to find this but i rarely waste my time on uneducated babble....facist??????   sorry man   you don't even know me...i would suggest you take some poly sci classes ...don,t use words you don,t understand(facist)..and actually talk to someone before you decide to slander them ..oh and by the way....a few months off drugs may help your perspective    ...sincerely   hobo

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:02 AM

Maybe you could post something on your website to say what you *do* believe, then. (I hadn't heard of you until half an hour ago and just looked at it; nice pictures and a credible list of connections, but nothing about what motivates you).

I don't see a useful moral distinction between fascists and people prepared to support the US military in an imperialist war anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

don,t use words you don,t understand(facist)

Do,nt use wrods you can,t spel iether.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:06 AM

One of the problems in the blog-o-sphere (and on Mudcat, unfortunately) is that people throw around terms they don't really understand. "Fascist" (capitalized) refers to the Italian political party led by Mussolini. On the other hand, "fascist" (uncapitalized) refers to a very specific set of economic, social and political beliefs and structures. Many people, as Hobo Jim says, who haven't encountered these terms in a historical or economic context use fascist (generally uncapitalized) to refer to anyone who is significantly to the right of that imaginary center line. For example, Bush II and his cohorts are often called fascists, here and elsewhere, but uncontrolled capitalism would have been anathema to any true (ie, pre-WW2) fascist. "Fascist" is often used by those on the left as "liberal" is used by those on the right - as a good general-purpose pejorative.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

uncontrolled capitalism would have been anathema to any true (ie, pre-WW2) fascist

I think they were more into controlling the workforce than controlling the capitalists, provided the captialists weren't Jewish.

As for the use of the word by liberals (lefties in UK), it generally implies more than free- market enthusiasm; disregard for civil liberties, an authoritarian social outlook (especially towards women and ethnic minorities), and a penchant for solving problems by violence are also implied. Whether any of this applies to young George I leave to those of us in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

Perhaps you may have fascism and Nazism confused - there is nothing anti-semitic about fascism, but there certainly is as Hitler's Germany reinvented it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

Not really. Mussolini and several of the other founders of the Falscist party were personally antisemitic, but Jews were not generally unpopular in Italy, and so it wasn't part of the official ideology until the later 1930s (see Primo Levi). Indeed, Jews were among the early members of the Party. But Mussolini's Fascism was Fascism with a large F. The small F fascists like Oswald Moseley were usually decidedly antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM

I went Googling for references to "Hobo Jim" and his politics. I found these recent news articles:

[Republican Sen. Ted Stevens] says he listens to the Four Tenors, Glenn Miller and Hobo Jim.
--Anchorage Daily News, Nov. 3.

At the same time the Alaska Republican Party is holding a Stevens rally in Anchorage at Eddie's Sports Bar. The main act is the state's official balladeer: "Hobo Jim," a fisherman-logger-cowboy turned country singer.
--Ya Libnan (Lebanon), Oct 30.

Following Inouye on Thursday were witnesses with some celebrity among Alaskans, like musher David Monson, the widower of Iditarod champion Susan Butcher, and the balladeer Hobo Jim [as defense witnesses in the trial of Ted Stevens.]
--Anchorage Daily News, Oct. 10.
[The testimony concerned a sled dog that Stevens received, and whether it was undervalued in a disclosure form.]

[Also, here's Hobo Jim's web site but I don't see anything political there. And here's his MySpace page. "Fishin' for Chickens" is an amusing song if you don't take it for truth, but it has a disturbing image of enticing a chicken to swallow a fishhook.]

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:10 AM

hmmm...Are you sure that intolerance is only a trait of 'fascists'????? Seems there is very little tolerance to anyone who is not 'free' to think differently, than a lot of you!
Beauty, as well as ugly is in the eyes of the beholder!
Lighten up!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:39 AM

Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist ideology that is committed to being an alternative to capitalism and communism.

It seeks to solve existing economic, political, and social problems by achieving a millenarian* national rebirth by exalting the nation or race as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

*millennarism is the belief by a religious, social, or political group or movement in a coming major transformation of society after which all things will be changed in a positive direction.


In plain words it is "The Change We Need"

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:28 AM

From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:39 AM

Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist ideology that is committed to being an alternative to capitalism and communism.

It seeks to solve existing economic, political, and social problems by achieving a millenarian* national rebirth by exalting the nation or race as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

*millennarism is the belief by a religious, social, or political group or movement in a coming major transformation of society after which all things will be changed in a positive direction.


In plain words it is "The Change We Need"

I'm sure Obama will bring it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM

So if this folk artist is a fascist and fascism is what we need because Obama will bring it, he must be a good guy. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

Thank goodness artbrooks stepped in with a definition of fascism. I was about to conclude that it was anyone who had a point of view which differed from mine! And talk about thread drift. That darn Little Hawk hijacked this sucker so smoothly I didn't notice till I was three quarters down the list!

The term Fascism comes from the fascia a strong fiber which is used to bind together stalks of wheat (?) or a bundle of sticks. The symbol is usually one of an axe embedded in the bound bundle. It represents strength in unity and military power. Strangely or maybe not so strangely these symbols are found in the White House and the Halls of Congress. I don't recall seeing them in the Supreme court Building but that doesn't mean they aren't there. They have also appeared on the reverse side of various issues of coinage, most notably on the reverse of the FDR dime. Thought you might be interested.

As for calling someone a "fascist", just don't. Thanks Big Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

". . . an alternative to capitalism. . . ."

No, you got that wrong, Sawzaw. Fascism is when the capitalists are the government.

Mussolini defined that quite clearly.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

The Fasces is the symbol of a bundle of sticks bound together to show that there is strength in numbers.

One stick representing one person is only so strong but a bunch of them together is strong.

Fasces from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle" symbolize summary power and jurisdiction, and/or "strength through unity".

see image

The traditional Roman fasces consisted of a bundle of white birch rods, tied together with a red leather ribbon into a cylinder, and often including a bronze axe (or sometimes two) amongst the rods, with the blade(s) on the side, projecting from the bundle.. It was used as a symbol of the Roman Republic in many circumstances, including being carried in processions, much the way a flag might be carried today.
But this symbolism could apply to any group like gangs, armies, a PTA association. Strength through numbers.

However, politically, i think Fascism has a different meaning like a group with a strict adherence to a cause is going to force something on another group so they must all think exactly alike and act exactly alike be cause they know better. No tolerance of other peoples' ideas or wants. In the extreme it is "You do like us or die."

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM

Slag, I didn't define fascism and wouldn't even try in this forum - and snippits from Wiki, which Sawzaw likes, hardly does it either. I had a class in modern European history a few years ago that took a couple of week to discuss what is is and isn't. My objection, as noted earlier, is to people who don't really understand it but use it as an expletive...as in "you shitbird, you fascist, you SOB".

Subject: RE: BS: I'm Curious- Who is this Fascist?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:56 AM

At least I gave it a try.