BS: Gun control

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:03 PM

We now have a law that says if you beat up your wife, and you are convicted of domestic violence, you can not legally own a gun. How do you like them apples? I say BULLY! Any man who beats up on a woman is not a man in my opinion, and if he has that much trouble controlling his temper, he damn well shouldn't have a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:09 PM

Shouldn't let the bastards drive either, given the likelihood of road rage in anyone without self control.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

Saw a bumper sticker the other day

GUN CONTROL: Using both hands

I know, I know, not funny for some of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM

GUN CONTROL: Using both hands While driving?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM

Talking on a cell phone while drive may be safer.

But not much.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 08:10 PM

Another "gunman" targeted a Target Store today and killed 2 in the store while wounding two others.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:15 PM

Jacqui and I were in a Target store today!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,whassisname
Date: 14 May 07 - 09:20 PM

In case anyone wonders how gun control is taught in our public schools in America, here are some reassuring stories:

...Many of the 69 pupils, aged about 11, were reduced to tears when they were told to hide under tables and keep quiet as a gunman was on the loose....

...The incident lasted about five minutes and was intended to be a learning experience, said the school's assistant principal, Don Bartch, who led the trip....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6653167.stm

...For nine minutes, the classrooms and offices of Hudson High School were locked down, while a sheriff's deputy posed as an intruder with a gun, roaming the halls....

http://www.sptimes.com/News/082300/Pasco/School_drill_tests_cr.shtml

ATLANTA -- A mixed response by parents at a middle Georgia high school after learning a pistol was fired inside the school as part of an emergency drill. Students didn't know the gun was firing blanks....

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9852407/detail.html

BURLINGTON, NJ, April 3, 2007 – On Thursday, March 22, officials at Burlington Township High School enlisted the help of two local policemen to carry out a mock 'hostage situation' drill at their school. The drill invoked disapproval from Christian students as the student body was told that the alleged gunmen were "members of a right-wing fundamentalist group called the 'New Crusaders' who don't believe in separation of church and state."

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/apr/07040301.html

These are just random situations pulled up in no particular order. Just search for 'school gun drill' and you'll find hundreds.

How can you public school teachers go along with this stuff? All these drills are funded with federal money, so your school districts have to go along with it to get the money, but how do you, as an individual, abide this? This is SEVERE torture. Trauma-based mind control. How can you work in a public school system that does this?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: fumblefingers
Date: 15 May 07 - 12:24 AM

I'll just hang onto my three pistols and you guys can argue until your tongues get tired.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: kendall
Date: 15 May 07 - 09:18 AM

I find that ONE is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 May 07 - 04:52 PM

if you beat up your wife, and you are convicted of domestic violence, you can not legally own a gun.

In most places a conviction is not necessary. If any complaint of "domestic violence" has ever been made in which you were involved, and you were taken into custody, in most jurisdictions it will be nearly impossible for you to legally own or posses a gun.

A "domestic violence" complaint does not mean that there was violence of any kind, but could just be a couple yelling at each other loud enough for the neighbors to hear.

Coupled with the policy in many places that on any call in which police respond to a "domestic disturbance" at least one party must be taken into custody (often whichever one is most willing to leave to de-fuse the situation) there are quite a few people who likely are innocently affected.

The law also was made retroactive, so an old record for submitting to "custody" when it was just the "convenient thing to do" could now prevent you from legally owning or possessing. This "new provision" resulted in at least 3 officers on my local police force being forced to leave the force, despite what appeared to be perfectly respectable histories of performance as police officers and no charges or convictions in any of the cases.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 07 - 09:14 PM

Hmmmm???

Now we have a bunch of George Mason University students in Fairfax, Va. who want to be able to strap on their handguns and wear them to class...

Ahhhhh, am I missin' something or has the United States been completely taken over by lunitics???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 12:09 AM

I did not want to start another thread on guns, so am posting this here. Have any of you heard of Kenneth Royce aka Boston T. Party who wrote a novel called "Molon Labe?" You may read about it and some reviews of it on amazon HERE.

From what I was told by a person who has read it and from what I have read at Amazon, it is a blueprint for "freedom-loving" gun owners to take over the state of Wyoming and free it from "big government." Though what kind of freedom they mean is questionable as apparently everyone would have to go to church and be chaste.

I read about things like this, from someone who used to be a good friend of my Rog, and figure it is no wonder some gun owners leave us all concerned as to what their real goals are in owning guns. I am NOT talking about folks like Mick, Sorcha, and others who own them for hunting or work, etc.

It makes me realise for all of our past work on human rights and keeping the northwest from being taken over by the white supremacists, there are still wing-nuts out there who want to "free" themselves and create their own tyrannical state.

I hope the folks in Wyoming are canny about this. It makes me angry and sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:50 AM

So Wyoming would end up something like Utah, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:56 AM

Bottom line here is; it's all England's fault. The government of King George 3 was so awful that when the constitution was drafted, the founding fathers made damn sure the Americans would be able to legally defend themselves. So there.

Maine has one million people. Men, women and children. We also have 10,000 concealed weapons permits out there. I'm not aware of one incident where a person with a concealed weapons permit shot someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Phil
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:35 AM

We have banned all handguns here in the UK, thanks to the Government thinking it would reduce gun crime, guess what,since the ban, handgun crime has gone through the roof.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:02 AM

Oh, God. More crap to fuel the lunatic fringe, like the "Turner Diaries." Just what is needed to help ethical, responsible gun owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:30 AM

England gave up gun ownership and is now treated to spectacles like cops executing a man on the 'tube.' 4 bullets to the head, wasn't it? How safe you people must feel. At least in America we can protect ourselves against the thugs of government. That's what our constitution did for us--it left us the means to protect ourselves against abusive government. 100 million gun owners in America, too. Groups like Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. JPFO.org.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:47 AM

Shoot a cop, see what happens. Even shoot AT a cop....

GUEST whatever, I happen to BE a gun owner (as folks here know). I have been using guns, out of and inside the military, for the past 51 years. And I firmly believe in the "alter or abolish" part of the Declaration of Independence and the Second Amendment. I am a fairly good shot with rifle, shotgun and pistol (bother revolvers and otherwise) -- that is to say, with a rifle I could kill a man-sized target at 325 meters using iron sights; and using a pistol I can consistently hit a Coke can at 35 meters.

You, on the other hand, talk like a wannabe.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:02 AM

Some years ago Canada enacted a law requiring registry of firearms. It has been a costly joke; the money could have been better spent on education.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:20 AM

How does it cone about you never seem to have motorists organisations that want to abolish driving tests?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM

Whats a driving test got to do with gun control?

OH! I see. You're worried about drive-by shootings ........

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

Christ, did any of you read the stuff at the link I posted? I didn't mean to start the whole acrimonious bullshit, again. I wanted the comments of my fellow Mudcatters on the book and its ideas, so to speak. Rog's friend is completely serious about what it espouses. This is alarming. He is not a nut. He just retired from a distinguished career in the military, some of it spooky-do stuff of which he will not speak. I would not consider him "fringe" element. Oh, well, I guess you all will argue back and forth no matter. Thanks for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:46 AM

Micheal Moore got it right. Can't separate Martin Marietta from Columbine. I have no sympathy for Charlton Heston who was a spokesman for the NRA. He can't blame that on Alzheimers.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

McGrath, Canada's gun registry has no provision for teaching firearms safety. It is just a register of serial numbers and owners' names.
It does not affect criminals or gangs in any way, not surprisingly they ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 12:54 PM

So would I be right to assume Canadian gun-lovers are campaigning to get the law strengthened to include stuff like passing a test firearms safety and so forth before anyone is allowed to have a gun?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

Kat, I find ANY such book disturbing. It seems like the authors are usually the sort of people who feel that "it's MY way or no way" -- and ex-military officers (and higher-ranking NCOs) have in the past been among the worst (e.g., Bo Gritz).

I respect their right to their opinions and ideas, but I need not espouse them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:03 PM

This is the wrong thread for this discussion, kat. This isn't about gun control. It is about a book that is a blueprint for action for people of a certain viewpoint. McGrath has already chosen to ignore your desires on the direction of the discussion. I would start another thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:32 PM

I hardly started any drift away from discussing this dodgy character and his ideas.

The fact that someone is has a distinguished career in the military is hardly a safe indication that they are trustworthy members of a democratic society. Goering comes to mind, and I am sure there are lots of American examples.

I suppose the question is, how do you best deal with this kind of incitement. In principle I imagine there might be something in your all embracing Patriot Act which could be brought to bear, but I doubt if that'd really be likely to help.

Maybe the good guys could move to Wyoming first instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM

This character is, indeed, dodgy. And I would like to clarify one point. It, emphatically, is NOT my Patriot Act. I find many of its provisions clearly in violation of the priniciples that I believe this country and its government should stand for.

The way you deal with this type of stuff is to let it die a natural death. That is the way of it in this country. Ideas are allowed, and will fly, or not, on their own merits.

I am not sure who the good guys are, btw.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:59 PM

As to the book in question, we've been swallowing serious brainwashing crap about 'global government' for a hundred years now, and 'liberals' seem to think that's okay. America's being dismantled so it can be absorbed into a tyrannical global government, and that's okay. Sovereignty is bad. And as for individualism, well the American Psychiatric Assoc now says you're CRAZY if you have any independent traits. So someone wrote a book about separatism and self-reliance. So what? If you want a totalitarian big brother society, well, it's growing up all around you. Can't you even freaking READ about individualism in a piece of escapist writing? Let's just censor EVERYTHING that doesn't follow the communist line. And maybe lobotomize the writers too. I mean, what business do writers have speaking against the status quo? The is AMERICA dammit, and freedom of expression has GOT to be controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:33 PM

Thank you, MCGrath, Q, Mick, Frank, and Rapaire. I appreciate your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:34 PM

Yeah. People like Thoreau, and Jefferson, and Paine, and Voltaire, and Hobbes, and Heinlein, and Twain, and all those other members of the lobotomized walking dead.

Only reading them requires you to think for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:44 PM

Hobbes against the status quo?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:37 PM

No, that was thread drift too.

But while I think Big Mick is quite right about how leaving this kind of thing to die a natural death is probably the best way to deal with it, I can imagine that it might feel a bit scary out in Wyoming thinking about the implications if the message encouraged the kind of nuts it appears to be directed at to try to act it out.

Still I'd have thought that incomers like that wouldn't be too welcome in any rural community.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:55 PM

Yes, Hobbes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

I know little about the situation in Wyoming and Idaho.Occasionally there is an article about extreme right-wing groups, but I think most of us consider it inconsequential and go on to other things.

"Rural community" has an odd twist in states like Wyoming, which have a small population concentrated in a few small towns but large areas considered ranchland but not controlled by serious ranchers and farmers. These properties may contain many acres and may be bought by any one or any group with sufficient money. They do not really constitute a part of the rural community as we generally think of it. It is here that these odd groups are growing, not in the small towns and successful ranching and farming areas.
They gain control of a large piece of property and what they do on it is not known or questioned by law enforcement and local governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:36 PM

Q - It was commonly known that these groups were growing in those areas before the Timothy McVay thing, but then we were given to think they'd died down. Are you saying that they are growing again now?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:04 PM

That is exactly right, Q, though I don't know if they are growing in numbers or not. There is a lot of anonymity and autonomy that goes on because of the huge spaces of uninhabited land. I remember one such outfit that was down near Laramie; it was in the news when Matthew Shepard was murdered. I cannot remember the name of it.

I think another thing which alarmed me is Rog's friend is seriously considering moving to WY for the reasons outlined in this and other books, etc. of its type. My friends and I worked really hard and for many years to ensure ALL WY citizens would be safe and treated equally. Much of our educational efforts and publicity was in direct response to the white supremacists who had a plan to take over the entire northwest. Sounds as if they are still active. I'd like to believe it will die down from lack of attention, but I seriously doubt that will be an effective way to respond. I think the more folks know about this so-called "blueprint" the better.

WY may seem a very conservative state, but when push comes to shove about personal rights, the ones who hate gun control laws will back freedom of choice without fail as evidenced several times when propositions to restrict that freedom were brought to the voters. It's a kind of schizo place that way.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:25 PM

They pick up a few nutsoes around Idaho every now and then, but ever since they closed down that bunch up north and sold the compound there hasn't been much activity at all. No more than, say, Indiana.

Yeah, there are still Birchers and such, and compared to the bunch currently in Washington the Libertarian message seems more and more attractive, but as I said, the real nuts don't seem to be any more than when I lived in Ohio or Indiana or Kentucky.

As for the gun control issue -- this seems to me to be an urban-vs.-rural problem: there is a LOT of open land here, in WY and MT, many farms and ranches, and a population that has traditionally used firearms for hunting and, yes, family and personal protection (as I've said before, I'd use a sword and do up the baddies en brouchette).

But I think that the author of such books as the one under discussion, those who want a "free state" (whatever that is) such as some are or were trying to establish in New Hampshire, are seriously deluding themselves about a lot of things.

Remember: most people interact with people who believe the same things. This leads to the incorrect assumption that because "my friends all believe this" everyone believes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:30 PM

Yeah, that's right. Wasn't Neal Boortz (or however he spells his name) heading up a movement to try to have Libertarians take over either Wyoming or Vermont by simpy moving in in large numbers?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:38 PM

It was back east somewhere -- VT or NH. The general feeling in Idaho was "Please God, send 'em someplace else! We're still trying to recover from that other bunch of idiots!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:49 AM

Welfare-state fascists (liberals) are starting to bitch and snort about the "evil right wingers" now because they need an enemy for the future. Liberals think they're about to take over the U.S. government, and when that happens, well you need an enemy to fight a war. So the drones on the left are suddenly being told by Billary and Uncle Obama that the war is GOOD, dammit. Can't cut and run! We've got to come together on this! It takes a village! And anyone who creates a fuss in the village needs to be DEALT with. That's why Halliburton BUILT those concentration camps, dammit, so HATE those Christians. HATE those constitutionalists. They threaten the WELFARE STATE.

Look up the ten planks of the communist manifesto. They've all been implemented in America to one degree or another, but that's not enough, is it? People can't be allowed to get away from the tyranny in real life OR in fiction. Man...the leftists think they're so individual, and they don't even know that the form of government they endorse is state fascism. They say they're individual and tolerant, but if you judge them by their actions you see conformism, intolerance...fascism. They tune in to government-funded NPR and do not give the steady leakage of anti-American vomit a second thought as it dribbles into their ears. Only difference between NPR and Limbaugh is that NPR leads with the left jackboot and Limbaugh with the right, but together they manage to forward the cause of statism a bit more with each deceptive broadcast.

We live under the "rule of law" but our rulers are lawless. Secession and revolt are inevitable. Dick Cheney has ordered Fox News to start the hard sell on the Iran War this week, so the shit's about to hit the fan. And you Democrats are going to end up LOVING the state of war because it'll be handed over to you. The whole mess. And then any challenge to the government will be a challenge to YOU, and you can't abide that, can you?

But then you know all this. Government indoctrination has taught you to hate your kids, and you want to feed them to a meat grinder. So be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:05 AM

As I said: "Still I'd have thought that incomers like that wouldn't be too welcome..."

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:11 AM

Go away, boy. Ya bother me.

No, wait. I'll go away.

Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 11:15 AM

Yeah, well, I wasn't the one who dragged up a "gun control" thread to squawk about a work of fiction.

Liberals are so house-broken that every time they see a threat to the welfare state they think FIRST of guns. I find that amazing. You people have been taught by the terrorists in charge of the government that the tools which keep you free are bad. Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

I have done a little investigation, using my magical powers. It appears to me that GUEST,jfnjnbvavo is just one of our same old trolls. I believe that the purpose of these posts is primarily to get a rise, and also to try and paint gun owners in a certain light. To those who are reading these posts, attempting to get an understanding of what motivates those of us in the US who own legally, use responsibly, and defend our right to own these, please don't take these posts as anything more than trolling and an example of a lunatic fringe. I believe that there is very likely an agenda in these posts that are not what this troll is attempting to make folks see.

In other words, ignore this person.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:13 PM

Yes, listen to Mick.

Meanwhile, back to the "liberals," I find it hard to believe that people who are generally well educated and articulate can find it so hard to articulate the truth. They shower degrees and academic laurels on themselves, yet they're so bad at articulating truth that I have to wonder whether they even KNOW the truth.

For example...

My father pointed out to me once that affirmative action is bad. And not for the reactionary reasons you might think (evil right winger). He said that giving someone economic advantage based on race has been PROVEN bad. It was tried before and didn't work. He was talking about slavery. Think about it. Why would you support preferential treatment based on race? And why should what used to be bad (race/class divisions reinforced by economics) now be considered good? I've talked to third-graders who understand this simple concept, yet most liberals go into a short circuit when they are confronted with the paradox. They try to rationalize and justify, but bad is bad, white, black or blue.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:17 PM

Careful there.... your agenda is showing

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,jfnjnbvavo
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:03 PM

Yes, truth is an agenda.