Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

What are those German words in the middle of Elvis's Wooden Heart?

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:29 PM

Holzherz?

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:56 PM

I was very surprised to find out how old the basic "A guy is a guy" song is- which most people know from the Doris Day version

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:27 AM

I loved the song "El Condor Pasa" when I first heard it on
a Simon and Garfunkel record many years ago (it was, in fact,
one of the first L.P.'s I bought, having outgrown 45's)
I didn't know that he'd borrowed the song from Urubamba,
a Peruvian street band that had been playing traditional Andean
music in New York in those days until many years later.   (are they still around?
there are lots of other Andean groups out there, Inca Son who play around Boston
spring to mind - but is there still an Urubamba?)

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: 8ch(pl)
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM

El Condor Pasa is likely at least 100 years old. It was a Puruvean folk song in Quechua and Spanish which was collected by Daniel Alomias Robles early in the 20th century and put to music.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:12 PM

As I heard the story, Simon and Garfunkle first heard Marie Laforet's version of Sur Le Chemin Des Andes, and got it from that. Not necessarily true, just the way I heard it.

I just did some checking. Paul Simon sez "I was in Paris in 1965, right before Simon and Garfunkel broke. I was roaming around Europe by myself, doing folk stuff. It was there I met Los Incas at a concert. I was booked, and they were booked, and that was the first time I had ever heard South American music. They gave me an album of their stuff, and "El Condor Pasa" was on the album. The Simon and Garfunkel record of "El Condor Pasa" was recorded over that preexisting track. So that's where it all comes from, and the notion was, if I liked the music, if it sounded good to me, it was popular. For me there was really no distinction between one culture and another.
from http://www.superseventies.com/sspaulsimon.html

But back to Marie Laforet's song: At the very least, it has been documented that her version predates theirs by about four years.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,nationalzjug
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:17 PM

Miserlou, (Dicky Dale) is traditional klezmer too?

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM

I believe I saw the Everly Brothers' "Hey, Doll Baby" listed as trad. but I don't know if it actually is.

I've always had suspicions about "Rivers of Texas". I know that it was COLLECTED in the early 1920's and I've never seen an attributed composer, but I can't convince myself that it isn't a "wrote" song.

I was in the grocery store a few months ago and heard, on their piped-in music, a 1950's-style pop song that included in its chorus the old lines about "I'll pawn you my gold watch and chain/I'll pawn you my gold wedding ring" but the tune was NOT that of the usual "Gold Watch & Chain". I had never heard it before and have not been able to find it so I don't know how close it was to the old song.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 08:31 PM

Re: "Sloop John B" and three references (more like 7-8 but anyways…)

Lyrics by romantic novelist-travel writer Richard Le Gallienne (on paid assignment to the Bahamian government) in one of a series of articles for Harper's Magazine. Song title is given as: "The John B. Sails" (Coral Islands and Mangrove Trees, Harper's Dec. 1916)

Le Gallienne recycled and expanded the lyrical meme in his adventure novel "Pieces of Eight: Being the Authentic Narrative of a Treasure Discovered in the Bahama Islands, In the Year 1903 – Now First Given to the Public" (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, Page & Co., 1918)

The "original" lyrics (credited to F.W. Clark?) were set to music and published by Chicago theater organist-composer A. Leopold Richard. (The John B. Sails, Chicago: Legters Music Co, 1921)

Privately released in songbook form (sans attributions) by Chicago Tribune political cartoonist-author John T. McCutcheon and poet-author Evelyn Shaw McCutcheon. The notes differ from Sandburg's only in the last half of the last sentence "...designed by Mr. Howard Shaw..." &c. This is the first appearance of the "Wreck" meme though the song title remains simply "The John B. Sails" (The Island Song Book, Privately Printed at The Chicago Tribune Tower, Jan. 15, 1927)

Released in songbook form by Sandburg later the same year, with the same song title. Arranged by A.G. Wathall, master-arranger and composer for the Chicago Tribune's WGN radio station. (American Songbag, Orlando, Florida: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1927)

First audio recording "Histe Up the John B. Sail" was the Cleveland Simmons Group by Alan Lomax in Old Bight, Cat Island, Bahamas in 1935. No mention of Le Gallienne, Richard, or the McCutcheons when finally released over a half-century later. (Rounder CD 11661-1822-2, 1999)

First commercial release by The Weavers as "(The Wreck of the) John B". Credited to Carl Sandburg – Lee Hayes. (b/w: The Roving Kind, Decca 27332, 1950)

Conclusions: The original title was "The John B. Sails" but it is rarely released as such. The songs origins are most likely in American popular literature and vaudeville.

See also the Origin: Sloop John B thread here.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:58 AM

Bound for Glory/ This Train - people often think of it as a Woody Guthrie song, because of the title of his book. He is on record as trying to correct the notion, and the song is recorded in Alan & John Lomax's book published about the time Woody was embarking on his wanderings.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 04:32 AM

Les Barker is a pleasant man.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 03:00 AM

So much for conclusions. See "origins" thread for update on... "Hoist the John B. Sail" Bahamas Development Board adverts and 1903 song by American bandleader-violinist Ed. W. Prouty. Shades of "Demolition Man."

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 04:15 AM

The contribution of Messrs Lea and Holder to the tradition - this is, I believe, an American trad tune sometimes known as "Peg 'n Awl":-


Slade:"My oh My"

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:46 AM

To the best of my knowledge, Elvis (like many others) had a habit of singing songs provided the composer gave him half the song-writing credit. (His name is included in the brackets on the "Love Me Tender" single). John Philips apparently said that The Beach Boys made the same arrangement with him when they recorded 'Kokomo'.

As we all know, greed is much more lucrative than integrity.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:23 AM

Well, ya know, a lot of times an old folk song needs to be added to in order to become a pop hit. Somebody may need to add a bridge, an intro, parts for backup singers, or an orchestra part.

(Come to think of it, when I am forced to listen to pop tunes in the supermarket, the 'orchestra part', which has been reduced to a ditty played on a synthesizer, is often the only part worth hearing.)

Anyhow, if somebody adds that stuff, s/he deserves credit for writing it.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 12:54 PM

I think it is appropriate and useful to distinguish
between two words that have been thrown around
up-thread, and in Mudcat generally, namely folk
song and traditional (or trad).

If you are talking about "folk" song, at least
to my understanding it is bound by certain
characteristics:
1. Passed down through some indefinite but long
time by serial oral presentations and memories.
2. No original composer is known to the populace
passing it down, (nor even to scholarly investigation.)
3. And because of the many rememberers and performers
during that long, indefinite time, there are likely
multiple versions of the song, some of which may have
become wildly different. On the negative side, an
absence of significant variants strongly suggests a
non-folk status.
4. A folk song, by this definition, is a special sub-set
of traditional song.

But the unadorned adjective "traditional" merely
means that the song is fairly widely known, and the
singing and remembering population often doesn't know
and probably doesn't care who (if anyone) originally
wrote it. An additional characteristic:
    Lack or paucity of variants probably implies that
much of the spread and (possible) longevity of the song
was because of its preservation through printed versions
and/or recordings.
    Or the song may be much more recent than what is
typically thought of as "folk" song, and thus it hasn't
accumulated many or significant variants during its
relatively short lifespan.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 04:16 PM

Well, the only reason I posted to this thread is because I've never considered "John B." as "Trad" but I've had the same dossiers in front of me recently for the Weavers' cover of Linda's "Wimoweh." Not much different really.

In discography (in which I include sheet music, piano rolls, etc.) the "folk" genre/style is a consumer-producer tag. Without a specifc artist-listener-song it has little or no practical usage. eg: Based on a single discography Harry Belafonte is/was either America's greatest folk artist and/or a calypsonian imposter depending entirely on when, where and who is doing the talking.

"Traditional" is the credit for an unknown composer. The song need not be popular nor even familiar but often is. The set/setting for singing "Happy Birthday" is traditional but the song's authorship is not.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 07:01 PM

But the copyright for "Happy Birthday to You" has
timed out, (Within the last six months to a year),
so everyone is safe using that borrrring little thing,
which will continue to be obligatory on its appropriate
occasions.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:42 AM

How nice, Dave O, to see somebody talk sense about "folk", with no mention of fucking horses!

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 02:54 PM

Dave: "...that borrrring little thing,..."

Richard: "...somebody talk sense about "folk".."

Me: "...depending entirely on when, where and who is doing the talking."

Pete Seeger sings Happy Birthday to Ramblin' Jack Elliott @ the Newport Folk Festival Backstage BBQ

And, back on topic, here's Seeger et al (perhaps) unknowingly enjoying a little turn-of-the-century ballroom music by Boston's E.W. Prouty:

The Weavers - The Wreck Of The John B.

... that became "folk" until it wasn't but was never "trad" and still ain't... for the time being. Tomorrow may be different. Make sense?

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:05 AM

Oh dear.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 01:34 PM

"Miserlou, (Dicky Dale) is traditional klezmer too?"

Greek.

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=23058

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 01:56 PM

Adam and Eve were, of course, Irish - and French, and African, and Chinese, and…

The serpent, though; not sure where he was from ;)

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:06 PM

It surprised me to learn that the song 'Colorado Trail,' which I heard on a Kingston Trio album, was traditional. It can be found in a collection of American songs which Carl Sandburg made (I forget the title of the collection.)

I was a teenager when I first heard it, and I thought it didn't fit with the album, being too modern. But it wasn't.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:12 PM

Wasn't Sandburg's book called American Songbag, or some such?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 08:54 AM

Adam and Eve were indeed Irish. They had no clothes, nothing to read, hardly anything to do, and only a few things to eat, but insisted they were living in "God's Own Country!"

(I realise you can replace "Irish" with "Russian" here, or indeed probably a lot of countries).

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 10:07 AM

Yes, MGM, that's it. American Songbag.

Are you familiar with 'Colorado Trail'? It's a lovely song, good to sing when you're weary or sad and want a little comfort. Here's a link to a nice version with Western scenery.


western lament

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 11:20 AM

The "songfacts" piece about Misirlou is not very accurate. It is undoubtedly Greek, but the title means "Egyptian girl", not "Arab land" (and the text is explicitly about her) - it's a Greek form of a Turkish word. The song was copyrighted by N. Roubanis in 1934, but had been recorded by someone else a few years earlier, so he was doing a McPeake.

The tune is so simple (up and down the hijazkar scale) that it's hard to say if it's traditional or not; but there doesn't seem to be a much earlier version of the text, so that probably isn't really trad, we just don't know who really wrote it.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 02:13 PM

RE: Misirlou

Dick Dale is of Middle-Eastern descent (Lebanese on the father's side) and his family married into Armenian. Supposedly where/how he picked up the melody.

American exotica aficiandos are quick to point out the early rebetiko covers were mostly recorded in the States. They claim Egyptian سيد درويش (Sayed Darwish, 1892-1923) and "Bint Misr (Egyptian Girl)" (c.1919, Fabrik Setrak Mechian.)

Ancient melody, lyrics not so much (maybe.)

"Traditional" rebetiko by way of Suffolk/North Essex courtesy of Bijoux Toots.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 02:49 PM

Dave O, way behind the times, approx. 1954, to be more accurate. Known authorship is quite rightly totally irrelevant to any meaning of folk song except perhaps your own. It was originally in the IFMC 'definition' but immediately dropped on the grounds that it's silly and indefensible.

For instance a folk ballad like 'The Demon Lover' is folk but ceases to be folk because we now know who wrote it. Daft I calls it! There are numerous other examples.

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 06:06 PM

"we now know who wrote it"

Honest?

Subject: RE: Songs that surprisingly _are_ trad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 06:30 PM

Martin Parker who wrote several other ballads in the 17thc that we now call folk.