BS: British Army reward murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

NH Dave, would you like to check if that IS "one of the things you fought for, 275 years ago."
I think it is one of the many things that you adopted directly from British law.

Just being pedantic, not looking for a row.

Guest 03.48, I have never corresponded with Keith A, nor he with me, privately nor publicly. We have addressed the same threads, but he has never (nor likely will ever) asked me to 'reserect' anything at all.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:48 AM

Is there a point to this thread Keith you asked Gurney to reserect ?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:30 AM

If you Google his name you will get a selection of news reports.

There is general agreement that the cart, being pushed by 6 men, did contain heavy machine gun ammunition.

However the dead man seems to have been unarmed. Running was not a good idea though.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: NH Dave
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 10:44 PM

One advantage of being in the US or the US military is that once you are tried for an offense, you can not be tried a second time for the same offense, on the same evidence.

Had Trooper Williams been in the US Forces his initial trial in the military would have been the end of the situation, regardless of outcome. He could not then be charged with the same offense and brought up on the same charges in a civil court.

On the other hand, conviction for a minor offense such as being late for work or formation in a military courts martial is a federal conviction, even though the offense might have been classed a misdemeanor or not considered a crime at all in a civilian setting.

One of the things we fought for, some 275 years ago.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: sinpelo
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:24 PM

I think it's very easy to cast judgment on someone who is expected to be both a pillar of the community and a highly efficient killer. Particularly in a situation in which it isn't always clear which persona is needed at any given moment.

Of course there are abuses and, when there are obvious abuses, we should express our outrage. But in a situation about which we know so little, I don't think it helps anyone to speculate what the truth might be. A million theories won't make a single truth.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:01 AM

Divis, I was just wondering where you were! The Curator sounds very much like you. Did you go to the same school?

Ard Mhacha, about your comments on the British establishment figures being so friendly with Adolph Hitler: What is your take on the fact that, despite that friendship, Britain still went to war with him (and his ENORMOUS army and airforce, despite his overtures of friendship?

Back to the thread. Remember the thread?

If I was a British squaddy, trying to defend the innocent civilians of Iraq from suicide bombers (because that is what they are currently doing), and some joker with a handcart of something I couldn't identify wouldn't do as he was told, then that joker's life would be in serious jeopardy. Suicide bombers play by their rules, I'd play by mine. You can call me prejudiced, but I wouldn't like to be called dead stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:03 PM

Now I wonder who could have possibly brought this thread back fom the dead ??????????????????????????????
I imagine it will come to me eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:48 PM

Who woke up Rip Van Winkle, go back to sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,The old soldier
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:41 AM

I have never heard do much clap trap in all my life Its obvious the original story came from a Nationalist rag in Belfast.

Just a few fact; the soldier did is duty correctly and to the letter of the Law.

The IRA murdered far more Catholic Irish men. Than the British Army ever did and they certainly murdered more innocent Catholic women and children.

The IRA although they have once again lost the war, they are continuing to murder their own people

Lets face it the IRA were a terrorist organisation and that's what terrorist do; murder innocent people that is

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Jimmy C
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:19 AM

Guests-

I don't want this to go to the wrong "GUEST" - it's to the one who talked about living in the past. Many people live partly in the past. The Irish remember the famine, the Black and Tans etc. Scots will remember Bannockburn, Wallace. Bruce etc. Jews will think of the 40 years in the desert and the holocaust ( as it has a right to), and Americans will always remember 9/11, Orangemen in Ireland will remember 1690 and of course England will remember 1966 ( when they won the world cup), a topic that is sure to come up when you anre enjoying your pint of ale.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

They voted one in to the White House!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

They would even vote for a monkey in Hartlepool.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM

On second thoughts, if there were a Sinn Fein candidate in Salford next Thursday I probably WOULD vote for them. Trouble is round here if you stuck a red rosette on a pig they would vote for it...

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM

dave´s one of the good guys folks. If he could vote sinn fein, he would.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Guest:-) I don't like to dissillusion you but I'm afrain I wouldn't:-( As I said above I think anyone who wants to rule a country must be completely barking mad. I would never vote for anyone who wasn't in full control of their facilites;-)

The only person I trust to control my life is me. Now, on the other hand, if you feel you would like a benign dictatorship then I am your man..:D

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM

What makes you think that this 'senseless slaughter' of yours will start up 'again', Frank?

Not my senseless slaughter. I haven't slaughtered anyone. Or if I have according to your logic then all the people murdered by the IRA are your personal responsibility.

Why might it start again? I should have thought that was obvious even to you.

Incidentally, I haven't actually seen the result or even the evididence that anyone has won. I wish I had. I wish, like Dave, that there was a united Ireland in which ex-loyalists and republicans and every faith were all living together in peace and harmony. Then everyone, except the hate mongers, will have won.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:35 AM

dave´s one of the good guys folks. If he could vote sinn fein, he would.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 05:51 AM

They are indeed, Guest. How did you know? Not only the NI Policy btw - Iraq, the NHS and PEL's have also been subjects of letters. I wouldn't know how to mount a silent protest. Thanks for pointing out that I don't only voice my protests on a folk music forum that doesn't realy matter, as some do, but I also let the people who can do something know how I feel. How exactly do you do it?

As to "your elected Govt". I don't no how many ways I can say they are not my elected government. I will keep trying though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:38 AM

Your fingers must be sore then dave, from all those letters you typed to your elected Govt asking them to review their NI policy. Or did you mount a silent protest?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:33 AM

Sorry, Tiocfaidh, but no-one speaks on my behalf, particulary those long dead. Wherever did you get that idea from? Neither has any government acted on my behalf. I am not ashamed to say that since I began to vote no Government that I have voted for has ever gained power. Anyone who has seen my previous political posts will know that I do not trust a single man-jack of them. Anyone who believes that they can run a country must be completely insane and therefore excluded from standing for Parliament, in my opinion.

I'm still nor sure what this has to do with the thread topic though.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:25 PM

You're all such bloody pedants. Foinn... they're all feckin' Carsonites, every last one of them. Always have been, always will be.
If you ever got close enough to them to smell their breath, you would know them...., but then, you just comment; you never experience.

And Dave, who forgets what his governments did on his behalf since he reached voting age, now wants to give the six counties back to Éire, and in all truthfulness, I'm sure, says that he does not speak on behalf of those who committed atrocities against us.

No Dave. They spoke on behalf of you.

Past tense, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:44 PM

In fact, just as I hit the submit button I had a flash of inspiration. I will categoricaly now state that I am representative of the English electorate. As such I am more than happy to give the six counties back to Eire. I suggest that the majority of English people reading this would agree.

I would also go one step further. I agree that many wrongs have been commited on the people of Ireland by the English government. I cannot apologise for those wrongs as I cannot speak on behalf of those who commited them but, as for myself, I will agree to vote for the very next candidate who agrees with my views.

Good enough?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:32 PM

given what your governments did to us on your behalf for centuries

I am what you may call 'average age'. I have been able to vote for over 30 years. I don't think anyone has been doing anything on my behalf for centuries. In fact I would say that the majority of people still alive in the UK have only ever voted for parties who genuinely want to give the six counties back to Ireland. The fact that the government of Eire do not realy want them back is very little to do with the current electorate. Or am I missing something?

Cheers

Davd the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

Nice wriggle, Tiocfaidh, except that from long before Churchill was PM Stormont was packed with Craigites, who would have regarded Carsonites as weird pinkos. Still, I had my tongue in my cheek, and I do go along with your main point that Irish neutrality was tilted significantly in the Allies' favour. Dev's paying respects on the death of Hitler was just a stupid blunder (which didn't do much for his reputation in the international community).

On the subject of the thread, I haven't followed the ins and outs of the specific case, but I have several times felt ashamed of the cavalier way the British Army has behaved in the aftermath of similar questionable incidents. It's no defence to say other countries behave just as badly - one always hopes one's own country will show some sensitivity and common decency. Oh, and of course I've been disgusted to witness the kind of episode in which the Curator lost his front teeth. My initial loathing has usually been towards the squaddies who do these things, but in truth the blame is with those who use armies for civilian policing, as they are doing in Iraq right now.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:24 PM

What makes you think that this 'senseless slaughter' of yours will start up 'again', Frank?

Just because we acknowledge that the war is over, and that The British lost, and that we remind you about it at every given opportunity.... just like your countrymen used to try and get us to bow the knee at every given one, yourselves.

I see no hate from the Republican contingent here.
A little bit of rubbing your collective nose in it, perhaps, which we have every right to do, given what your governments did to us on your behalf for centuries.

Live with it, all of you. You took a well deserved hammering in Ireland, and no platitudes that you could come up with will ever wipe that stain away.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

Remember, Eagle Wing that at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke.

It is very easy to be magnanimous, when you're on the losing side.

Can't speak for the majority of English people. I don't know anybody who have had that opinion - sounds like propoganda to me.

I'm not on any side so I can't be on the losing side and have no interest in winning or losing anything. I just want to see the hatred come to an end and, therefore, wish people, whatever their "side" would stop encouraging hatred and start encouraging peace.

Still, if you wish for the senseless slaughter to start up again, nothing I say or believe will stop you from carrying on with your messages of hate.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: EagleWing
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

Now ard, you are going to get on the wrong side of the Eagles Wings with comments like that. Understand pal if I wish to express my view here I will, it really doesn't matter what you think. Clearly you don't like Republicans. Tough.

Ard's comments, far from getting on the wrong side of me, were perfectly accurate, to the best of my knowledge, and I have no problem with the fact that they Ard has used them.

Why is it clear that I don't like Republicans? I dislike people trying to keep the hatred fresh in order to ensure that the peace is made impossible. But that is not the hallmark of all republicans.

Of course you can express your race hatred here. No one has attempted to stop you. I just think it's a pity you feel that spreading hatred is the best way to bring about either peace or a united Ireland - which I would like to see.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM

at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke

Huh? When did that happen? I never noticed?

Unfortunately we seem to have more than one line of reasoning here. One, like the point about stop and search, armed patrols on the streets and not inviting or wanting armed intervention seems to be based on fact and reason. The other seems to be based on equal ammounts of hate, predjudice and sheer ignorance. Whereas I can understand and sympathise with the former I can never agree to the latter, from either side.

Although this started as a thread about a completely different subject which, if anyone would care to read back, I stongly disagreed with, it was obvious it was to become another thread on 'the troubles'. I feel the Curator was wrong in his interpretation of the incident but I know full well that this is the type of thing every polititian will use to further his or her own cause. The Curator is a polititian, in his own way, of no mean status and I know he will not take offense when I disagree with some of his views. Neither do I take offense when he uses all means in his power to attack the establishment.

I will not however accept the view that a whole race of people, the English in this case, should become subject to abuse and hatred just because of their race. I, nor anyone here, is responsible for the misuse of power within the armed forces and I will do my best to expose it whenever possible. I will do whatever I can to fight injustice, whether I believe that to be the 'liberation' of the six counties or the random bombing of civilians by the para-militaries. And I will always try to expose obvious and ridiculous untruths like "at one stage the vast majority of English people would have quite happily seen our country go up in a puff of smoke".

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:22 AM

Yorkie, I hold a point of view which you don't accept, no problem. If and when I speak my mind you don't agree with it, no problem. But stop saying all we do is look back into the past. On Monday night last it was pissing down over when I was stopped in the street by a mobile patrol and questioned as to where I was coming from and to where I was going. It went into every detail of my past week. After 15 minutes I was told to go on my way. Britain has more troops in the North of Ireland than they do in Iraq. Just for a minute meet me half way on this one, how would you feel honestly if this was you in your home town and the soldiers were French ? This is not a one off, this happens and it's not the first time I have been stopped and questioned, told to go and then 30 minutes later stopped by the same patrol and go through it all again. This is reality.I am not making it up. So please tell me your stance on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Bobby George
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

Waaaaaan hannnnndred and twennnnnt teeeeeee

Good Darts

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

What argument have we 'lost', Yorkie (... I take it)?
Have you lost your wrapper, or something?

Have a drink to the de-tumescence of your proud Empire on me, Yorkie.
You would need a stiff one, I think

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:16 AM

Sanity is something you and the curator lost long ago along with your arguement.

Have a nice weekend Paddy, I'm off now to have a pint of ale amongst some fellow countrymen, people who don't live in the past.

TALLY HO

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:07 AM

Considering they were first used in that other famous debacle of yours, I fail to see the sanity of that riposte.

Whether being a Yorkshireman, or an Englishman, you lot still don't really like to lose, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM

away little child, balaclavas are for hiking!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:55 AM

We get rid of you first..., which we did.
We get equality...., which is on its way.

We've waited 800 years.
We can wait a few more....

Our Armed Struggle was GLORIOUS, Yorkie.
You just have a different perspective.

End result is still the same, though... and end to the interfering of London in our affairs.

Al Q is on its way, Yorkie.
One door closes, another door closes, eh?

Good luck on your National Security thing.
We'll be alright however, Jack!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,yorkie - one big son of a bitchin anglo saxo
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM

accept what? that you have no united ireland in spite of your "glorious armed struggle" don't make me laugh, too late, I'm pissing my union jack pants as I type.

Accepted friendly neighbourhood Paddy - good luck on that Eire thing - Yorkie

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

We had no political pressure to exert, Yorkie, or have you forgotten the years up to the GFA.

The only reason we are where we are is because of our Glorious Armed Struggle.

Accept it

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:24 AM

its called political pressure not bombing innocent civillians or are you unsure of the difference Eoghain. Thats the one reason you'll never achieve a united Ireland, for alot of Irish "patriots" there's too much profit in bitterness and feeling sorry for yourselves.

Yorkie,

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:20 AM

How is Republicanism 'done properly', oh Chocolate bar extreme?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Yorkie as now labelled
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

Where ave I mentioned my dislike of the Irish or even in fact the Republicans (a worthy cause if done properly) while your blatent hatred of the English is plain for any mudcatter to see.

Alright I admit it, I dont like Guinness, thats it everyone I'm a rascist. It says so in my passport, The united kingdom of Rascist bigots and Northern Ireland. Look at your post before you sling the mud Curator, then come back with a sane riposte.

Yorkie

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

... Oh..., and if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 08:10 AM

Not one of the regular Ireland bashers on this thread could come up with a reason for Brits to be in NI on another thread. Yet now they object to Irish people having points of view that clash with their own khaki coloured ones.

You really do need to move on and accept the years you spent patrolling our streets and stopping kids on their way to the sweet shop, were a total waste of time and life.

We'll whistle you a song as you leave. Missing you already.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

Yorkie don't know where you think you have won the argument, and this going on about bigotry. I am not a bigot. It's clear your dislike of the Irish, are you a bigot ? I am a Republican and proud of it. That's what you can't accept, the fact I exist, the fact your government released our volunteers from prison, the fact we are strong in local government and again we will see this next week.Please don't delude friend.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 07:37 AM

... bad proofreading, Finn, that was all.
.... should have said The Carsonites

Apologies.... if necessary

Ahhhhh, Villa Lobos, a chip is nothing to someone who has the Amazon rain-forest on his...

Let me take my chainsaw to it, dear chap:

Irish neutrality was completely biased in favour of the allies.
1 All weather reports were banned from public broadcast fearing axis interception, they were passed to Britain however.
2 Naval observers reported U-Boat activity to the British admiralty(Unlikely therefore that we were refuelling them!)
3 British intelligence was brought in to co-operate in a search for possible axis spy rings operating in Ireland.
4 Axis airman who crashed in Ireland were interred in the Curragh army basefor the war's duration. Allied air-crews however were returned across the northern border .
5 A joint defense plan was drawn up between Ireland and Britain in case of invasion. Funds were held in Dublin banks to pay british troops if required.
6. The bombing of Belfast was a high point in North South relations because Dublin dispatched ambulances over the border to help with casualties, something welcomed by even the Northern Unionists.
7 Irish citizens were free to join allied armies and return to Ireland without recrimination even if they had deserted the Irish army to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:46 AM

There isn't a great deal that you can do with someone who has a 300year old chip on their shoulder.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST,I aint English, am a Yorkshireman
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:26 AM

Curator: You lose your argument in a fog of bigotry. No matter if its against Nigerians, Germans, or Englishmen Curator its rascism, simple, fact, checkmate, king me, snap, in your face, whistle, safe, in the bank etc etc

my two British pennies

or as they say in Ireland

my two Euros

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:02 AM

Churchill apparently also asked Dev for the use of the 5 ports....., in return for the six counties (he reckoned he could get Carson's OK on this).

Tiocfaidh, do you never check anything? Carson died in 1935.

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 04:20 AM

Leadfingers what do you find unfactual?

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:48 AM

Terry,
       I bow in the face of your superior post pinching ability!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

Hey Ted -- Another 100th !!

Subject: RE: BS: British Army reward murderer.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:31 PM

A Hell of a lot of Obfuscation in this thread -But never let the facts get in the way of a good story !