'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs

Subject: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM

There's a thread further down called Do You Perform or Record Covers? which is mainly talking about performing covers of other people's singer/songwriter songs, but it got me thinking about something slightly different.

Wondered what other people thought about relatively well known performers doing covers of other people's arrangements of traditional songs? Something that I have seen quite a few people in the UK doing over the past few years, and it offends me somewhat although I have difficulty putting my finger on exactly why... maybe because I've never seen somebody do it and credit the arranger, which seems a little unfair. I'm talking about where somebody somewhere has recorded a song with harmonies etc and somebody else has lifted the exact phrasing & harmonies, presumably from the cd, but performs and introduces it as 'traditional'. Which to my mind either implies that they want the audience to believe they arranged it themselves (and what about copyright of arrangements, PRS etc? - I know it's a very fuzzy line but in some people's eyes that's THEFT!) or they are sufficiently ignorant or unaware that they think that's how music works - that a version of a song exists fully formed 'in the tradition' and that it doesn't make any difference whether you arrange it yourself or not.

Examples that spring to mind are the Witches of Elswick doing Daddy Fox but using a Lais tune & harmonies (yes I know they put different words to it, but other than that it sounds the same), the Threlfall sisters doing a Silly Sisters song, Taggart & Wright doing CBS and Medieval Babes songs, Jim Moray doing Chris Wood's version of tune, words & phrasing for Lord Bateman (yes I know he put funky industrial instrumental backing but if you just listen to the vocal it is note for note the same as Chris Wood's version).

I'm not saying that it makes it bad music or a bad performance, I've really enjoyed concerts featuring all of the above artists and many others who do the same thing, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I realise the original arranger is getting no credit for all their hard work. It's much more effort taking something from a manuscript or book and coming up with natural feeling phrasing and harmony lines than it is to work out what somebody else is doing on a cd and copy it.

what does anybody else think?

James

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: pavane
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

Arrangements are covered by copyright, and all the rules should apply

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: jonm
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:15 AM

Where I do perform other people's material, I tend to do it "my way." Various of Richard Thompson's, singer/songwriter stuff, acoustic versions of rock numbers with decent lyrics etc. Where these songs are trad, they then become my version, I suppose, even if I learned it from someone's recording.

However, there are some trad. numbers you just have to do as they were originally performed, or as close as a mere mortal can get - Martin Simpson's John Hardy, Nic Jones' Canadee-i-o (wish I could do either justice!) which I'll tend to perform for my own pleasure, crediting the arrangement of course.

Mind you, I don't record (or make any money).

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:30 AM

Pavane - that's what I thought. But it would appear that plenty of performers don't appear to know this (or maybe they fill in their PRS forms properly but don't mention the arrangers to the audience?? Unlikely methinks but you never know)

jonm - either of those sound like perfectly reasonable approaches to me, it's only when it is a blatant cover and no credit is given for the arrangement that my hackles start to go up. Nowt wrong with learning trad songs from other people's recordings (a goood source of material in this day & age) or with perfomring others' arrangements of them so long as you tell the audience where its from.

James

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:26 AM

Look how many Irish bands use Andy Irvine's tune for the Cruel Sister without even knowing he wrote it.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Rabukoo
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:41 AM

I was at a singaround where someone did Martin Carthy's "The Famous Flower of Serving Men" to a different tune, citing it as a traditional ballad - but it is in fact made up of parts of more than one ballad (one of which is "The Border Widow's Lament"), plus some bits made up completely by Martin Carthy, who was of course not credited!

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:51 AM

Doesn't Paul Simons 'Scarborough Fair' come under this category. Or is it one of them there Urbans Myths (or is it folklore in this case:-)?) that Mr S nicked Martin Carthy's arrangement and covered it? And possibly then copyrighted that arrangement?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:53 AM

No urban myth, but Martin forgave him recently.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:59 AM

I think really it usually comes down to musicians not even thinking about the fact that they are doing it someone else's way. They tend to sing a song more or less as they heard it. Most of us start to talk by imitating what we have heard and I think that singing happens the same way. You are always most likely to sing something similarly to the way you first heard it (if you can). I think that only the better musicians make a conscious effort to adapt what they have already heard.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: pavane
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:02 AM

Did Martin Carthy claim he made up 'the bits' in question?

On a similar theme, if a singer presents his OWN material but claims that it is a traditional song he collected (not an unknown occurrence), then presumably he cannot claim any copyright?

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Rabukoo
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM

From the sleevenotes of Martin Carthy's last album talking about his new recording of the song:

"...The parson who sent them to Sir Walter Scott never sent the rest (!) so I glued some bits together and made up chunks to tell a story which is clear and terrifying...."

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 02:32 PM

I think there are only four (or was it two) verses of "Famous Flower" in Child, the rest adapted by Martin.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

Several of my friends have the idea that all sources should be recognised , wether for composed or traditional material and NOT just assume because you have heard someone sing a song it is 'Theirs' . I do NOT write , so use Albums and live performance to acquire new material . After I have workes out a song , if i think it sounds too much like the source , I put it away for a while , then go back to it and eventually get it sounding like MY treatment and NOT a steal of someone elses .

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:56 PM

Folk music is iIt is important to cite any information you have about a folk song you are performing. A folk song is irrelevant without its context. Martin Carthy, at least, is apparently aware of this. When I perform a song it is my version because I am a hopeless tinkerer. However, I am glad to tell anyone if I got the song from a person, a recording or a book.

Brian

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: shepherdlass
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

Lots of people learn songs note for note via other people's arrangements and then their own version comes through via constant repetition and little changes (like Brian's "constant tinkering") here and there. I'd have thought this was an extension of the old process of oral transmission. Yes, there are blatant abuses of this like the Paul Simon/Martin Carthy/Scarborough Fair controversy but unless the performers are making shedloads of cash from recorded versions of these arrangements surely it's actually quite flattering to the arranger? Bet you'll call me naiive now!

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:43 PM

It isn't very flattering to the real arranger if the performer doesn't bother to mention them, and implies (by omission or by outright lie) that it's his or her own work.

It isn't hard to tell the truth. People should do it more often.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:04 PM

Guest, Allen: speaking of the twists and turns of crediting, that Cruel Sister tune pre-existed Andy Irvine (and Clannad and lots of other folks). :-) See this thread.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Splott Man
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:01 AM

Could it get to the point where each song in a concert is followed by a long list of credits?

We all nick from each other down here in the lower reaches of the folk food chain.

I agree with shepherdlass.
If someone is interested they'll ask. Meanwhile, I don't think anyone is intentionally stealing credit. We're thankful that others further up have drawn our attention to the song. We do our best to make them our own, but we're not all that clever.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:37 AM

Maybe people aren't intentionally stealing credit in the sense that they want people to believe that all that hard work is their own when they know that it isn't, but they are stealing credit by omission.

If you learn a song from somebody else's CD it doesn't hurt to say 'this is who/where I got it from'. That's only one credit, not a long list. As you say, if people want to know more than that they can ask and look stuff up for themselves. But if you don't give any credit at all then I think you are implying that it's your own work even if that's not the intention.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:58 AM

Theft. Absolutely. Such as Bill Jones' version of which is a straight lift of Altan's version.

otoh, many do credit their "influences": certainly Martin Simpson, Boden & Spiers, Kate Rusby generally cite their sources.

I've nicked some arrangments and generally mention the source.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM

Er, that should have been "Such as Bill Jones' version William Taylor of which is a straight lift of Altan's version.". Oops

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:14 PM

So J-Lo played a concert and before every song she listed out who the writers were... For god's sake singers, please just sing the song before we all drown in a mire of folk political correctness. I for one would trust that an artist would put the correct credit on their PRS form, because as we know, the folk police would come to get them if they didn't!

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:44 PM

It wouldn't be the imaginary "folk police", but the very real "copyright police". Quite another matter.

Credit where it's due; that's all. No "police", no "political correctness". Just honesty. What's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Brían
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Not only for the honesty, but for the context. The information about a song, the author, who sang the song and the history about it hardly bog the listener down in the details for a skilled performer. If I don't want to be mired down with details, I can put on a CD or change the channel on the car radio.   

Brían

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:23 PM

Exactly so.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:43 PM

I can recall as a kid thinking album notes along the lines of "I learned this from the singing of ***; it is an old Scottish border song" or "*** collected this song in *** where it has been sung since the early nineteenth century by the *** there" were a waste but now a song seems quite naked without that much; and the spoken "learned from the singing of" to me seems a very graceful way of recognizing a source/collector/arranger and also recognizing the folk tradition itself in performance. (Even if "the singing of" was on a CD, or a tape in the Smithsonian, or a radio show.)
Paying people for their work is a different proposition and must be done properly.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:48 PM

Since tradtitional music means that the song and style of playing it have been passed from on artist to another, it seems a bit silly to be so judgemental of those who play what others have played before them, since if they didn't, it wouldn't be traditional, now would it?

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Robbie Wilson
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:30 AM

It's easy to get pious about stuff like this. One possible effect of quoting origins not just of song but of arrangements, players etc is to show off how wonderfully knowledgeable you are compared to the plebs in the audience.

I try, often in vain, to stick to the rule of saying something to the audience if I think it will interest them, or add to their enjoyment of the song.

If people really like something they will often ask where I got a song and I will tell them at great length, if they dont then i dont suppose I would be doing the originator any favours by claiming my efforts were their arrangement.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:53 AM

That isn't quite the point I was trying to make though.

I am not talking about somebody learning a song from one place and not telling people where they got it from in general. I am specifically talking about somebody learning an arrangement, note for note in some cases or very similar in others (see the examples I gave in the first post of this thread).

I don't care whether an artist gives you the whole history of a song or not, some do, some don't, and it's their personal choice at the end of the day. If the arrangement is all their own work then fine.

But I think it is rude bordering on theft to use somebody's arrangement and harmonies that they have quite probably spent many hours working on without at least acknowledging where you got them.

Completely different to the J-Lo example above where I'm sure her writers & arrangers get a hefty fee and sign a contract saying she can use their material. Nobody would expect a pop artist to do all their own arranging anyhow.

All the people who have replied above along the lines of 'but it doesn't matter really does it?', have you ever tried writing full 4 part vocal harmony to a trad song? Believe me, I've tried and it is hard work. Takes hours. Maybe its because I'm slow at it, but even so, even the most experienced of arrangers must have to give it time and thought. Is it fair to say to the people who've done that hard work 'oh well, it doesn't matter'? If the performer who was covering their arrangement thought it didn't matter, presumably they would have just used the first version as a source of tune & words and worked out their own arrangement, which for a trad song I don't have any problem with at all!

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Mr Pedantic
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:48 AM

simple..

just perform your set anyway you want to..


but depending on how much your concience troubles you


...supply every member of the audience


with a scrupulously researched printed handout


containing full source and contextual materialm, notes, references, diagrams, and bibliography on every song you perform...


in fact nothing short of M.A. Thesis standard of accademic research should do...


I Know I'd love to read that much during the performance of every live song I hear..

..in fact only ever perform gigs in University libraries
to avoid the constant noise of drunkards distracting from
an audiences studious reading...

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM

oh for god's sake, no need to get petty.

that is not what I am saying and you know it.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,furferret
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM

I don't think anyone should be able to own an arrangement. Its just a pretty way of rendering a tune & if its nice then why shouldn't people take it on and enjoy passing it on? Pretty rediculous if you have to try to remember where you heard it sung a particular way. If it got in your head you might not even remember where you heard it. Seems petty to worry about such things.....

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:40 AM

Pavane said:

On a similar theme, if a singer presents his OWN material but claims that it is a traditional song he collected (not an unknown occurrence), then presumably he cannot claim any copyright?

John Jacob Niles did that, I've been told. He represented "I Wonder as I Wander" as a collected folk song, but when someone else used the song Niles sued, claiming it as his own, which it was.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:43 AM

surely that would also apply to people writing new tunes and songs then? it's no different - that's just a pretty way of rendering a some words/notes & if that's nice then why shouldn't people take it on and enjoy passing that on too?

so if I sing a song that somebody else wrote and don't give them any credit, thereby making my audience believe that I wrote it myself, that doesn't matter?

If I wrote a song and somebody else wanted to perform it, I'd be chuffed to bits. But if they passed it off as their own, I might be a bit upset! Is that unreasonable?

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:52 AM

sorry, cross posted with Dave there, I was replying to furferret.

Rereading your post though furferret
Pretty rediculous if you have to try to remember where you heard it sung a particular way. If it got in your head you might not even remember where you heard it.
that's not quite what I'm talking about, most of the examples I was referring to are complex harmony arrangements where the performers in question must have sat down with the CD and worked out what the parts were, otherwise there's no way they could have reproduced them that closely. Can't forget doing that, surely?
Maybe I was a bit unfair including Jim Moray in that as with his it was the phrasing & the fact that it was note for note & word for identical to Chris Wood's delivery that I was referring to, possible I suppose that could be a bit more subconscious than the learning of harmony parts.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,furferret
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:31 AM

Yeah - i suppose there's a line there. Do people really sit down and learn the harmonies like that? Sounds a bit like disecting the song, which would kill it for me - and then if people copy the whole arrangement with complex harmonies reproduced exactly they might just as well put the CD on.
I think I just failed to get the point of what you are saying because that way of doing things is totally alien to me & so I don't really understand the work involved either in deriving a new arrangement or copying an existing one.
I'm still not completely convinced, but then perhaps I'd need to know more about the subject. Seems to me though that it wouldn't hurt to acknowlege the debt where there has been a concious attempt to copy an arrangement. Don't know whether I would assume that a performer had derived the arrangement themselves in the absence of an acknowlegement. Will give it some more thought.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

It is pretty difficult to transcribe a complex four part harmony vocal arrangement from a recording JamesH--much easier to write your own---and it is relatively easy to write something that has the sound or feel of another arrangement without it actually being the same.   For an arrangement to be the same, it literally has to be the same--note for note. Legally, you are entitled to use quite a lot, which is to say that a listener could identify different parts that are common to another arrangement without there being a copyright violation--

When the melody is traditional or folkloric, you're going to have a steep uphill battle proving that anything else in the arrangement is so unique that you can stake an exclusive claim to it. Basically, you'd have to show that someone Xeroxed your printed arrangement--or that you taught the arrangment to someone note for note(which is the same thing) and then they claimed it for their own.

The fact that something sounds like something else to you, doesn't mean that it is the same--and. particularly, it doesn't mean that someone has taken more than they are entitled to take--

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:07 AM

you're probably right M.Ted that the stuff I've heard may not be note for note identical, just sound close enough that you can't tell at one listening - but I'm not really looking at this from a legal ownership trying to claim copyright point of view.
It just strikes me as rude/cheeky to copy something that closely and not acknowledge it. There's no way, in the examples I was listing, that the performers could have come up with those arrangements independantly and 'just happen' to have them sound so close to a recorded (and often well known) other version.
As an amateur muso myself I tend to listen to things quite analytically and am likely to think 'hey, nice arrangement' if it's something I like. I always feel a bit cheated if it is a copy of something else - and there must be times where it is a copy but I don't realise it cos I don't know the original.

I know that plenty of other people who don't listen analytically like that, which is fine, but the arrangement will still have a big bearing on their appreciation of the music. Especially if the audience are not aware of it, it can lead to a performer being quite highly rated when actually they are ripping off other people's hard work, which sets my teeth on edge. Yes there's more to performance than the arrangement, but it does count a lot.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,Michael Winner
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:02 AM

calm down dear.... its only folk music

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: SarahNash
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:25 AM

Aren't there two issues here? The copyright and the orginality.

Copyright then: Of course if a song/tune is only part traditional, you should cite your sources. This probably does only apply to people who are recording/well known/making money out of it; for the rest of us, it's only polite really, don't you think?

For your average folk club singer, I personally think that the originality issue is of greater importance. No matter how flattering, if you perform a note for note cover of a piece, ultimately you're performing a (probably)weaker version of something that your audience could listen to at home. If you can bring something new to it, no matter what your technical standard, you're a better musician for it. That's the point of live music.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,furferret
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:51 AM

I'm not totally convinced that its impossible to come up with similar harmonies to an existing arrangement that one is not aware of. Surely the possibilities aren't that infinite when working off a particular well known trad melody line. Given that music follows a certain internal logic, and that the lyrics themselves & the emotional content will suggest certain configurations then surely similar arrangements are quite likely to be derived in isolation from eachother. ??

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM

James. you really don't get out much, do you? ;-)

In all music, there are a few originals and a lot of followers. You can't get mad a people for imitating and even copying sounds that they like (occasionally with, but usually without credit), because, like it or not, that's mostly what music is about.

Most of what people do is lifted straight from someone who lifted it from someone, ad infinitum. Over time somebody hears something wrong, or misremembers, or is just such a wack job that they can't follow anything, and you get a little new mixed in--that's the game, as it has been played from the year one--

Folks who are imitated are mostly flattered, a) because it means that the folks who copied them love their music, and b)because it means that they are the originals--

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:24 AM

The other thing is, as those of us who listen to classical music know, two people can play exactly the same music, note for note, phrase for phrase, count for count, and come up with something completely different--

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:22 AM

I sometimes introduce a song by saying that some of the notes were used by Beethoven. And I'd thought it was a joke. Until now.

Tee hee.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: Santa
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:03 AM

Hamish: I've heard Bill Jones do William Taylor, solo voice accompanying herself on keyboard. I don't think it can be identical note-for-note with Altan, who are not (I understand) a solo female with keyboard. But then I'm not a musician, what do I know?

I do know that my wife and daughter sing in folk clubs, and they sing songs they've learnt from CDs. They vary them a bit to suit their own voices, but they still recognisable as so-and-so's versions. (Well, often, anyway.) They usually say something about the song and its origins, but not always. I thought that this was just the way things were done, and part of the folk tradition, etc.

Meg adds that she is sometimes surprised, going back to the CD, how different "her version" is from the source track. For example, decoration can replace harmony.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:42 AM

hehe, M. Ted, I'm not as irrate about all this as I probably sound! :)

In all music, there are a few originals and a lot of followers. You can't get mad a people for imitating and even copying sounds that they like (occasionally with, but usually without credit), because, like it or not, that's mostly what music is about.
Fair point, and fair do's to Santa's wife & daughetr too, I agree all that is part of the process and although my preference would be for people to credit their sources if they've pretty much learned somebody elses's version of a song, I can see why sometimes they don't.

But... maybe it's just me, but I rate the originality quite highly. that's kind of why I asked the question in the first place, to see if other people felt the same (and the answer, predictably enough seems to be 'some do, some don't!')

Most performers will understand the work it takes to come up with something new versus allowing yourself to be very heavily influenced by somebody else's version of the same song, but a lot of non-performing audience members don't know anything about it - and why should they? So they will end up thinking somebody's music is marvellous for its own sake and will rush off and buy the cd's and so on, while the person who originally did the leg work doesn't get a look in.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

>Maybe I was a bit unfair including Jim Moray in that as with his it was the phrasing & the fact that it was note for note & word for identical to Chris Wood's delivery

Actually, if you're being pedantic there is no "note for note and word for word" correlation between the two performances of Lord Bateman you mentioned. I know this because I transcribed the whole of both performances plus those of two others. The differences are only subtle, but just the same amount as between Chris Woods "Spencer the Rover" and John Martyns version, or Nic Jones' "Annachie Gordon" and everyone whos ever sung it since.

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM

James, you still don't get it, do you?   It takes a lot of study to "copy" or even be "heavily influenced"--and quite a bit of practice. This is the necessary work of learning to play.

I suggest, based on some of the comments here about what you think sounds alike, , that perhaps you don't understand what you are hearing as well as you think--and I suspect that the "originality" that you value is not quite as original as you think--

No matter what the source, the performance ultimately belongs to the performer--

Subject: RE: 'Covers' of arrangements of trad songs
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:41 AM

I am not denying that all that takes work M Ted. I am just saying that it takes MORE work to do something that hasn't already been done before. Equally I am not saying that using material & arrangement that is very heavily influenced by somebody else makes a bad performance, in my first post I tried very hard to say that even if I was listing examples, it didn't stop me enjoying performances by any of those artists.

But... there is plenty of material out there that hasn't already been done 30 times already, and there are plenty of ways to approach even a well known song that don't make you think 'hey, that sounds just like so & so's version'. Admittedly I haven't sat down with the two versions of any of the tracks that I mentioned and compared them line by line because (even I am not that pedantic and) I've thought these things in live performance not recorded, for the most part.

Are you honestly saying that the seeking out of new material & working out of fresh arrangements doesn't matter at all though? If nobody did it, things would get pretty stale pretty quickly.