Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Milo Hollingsworth
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:14 AM

It's about time Ireland was able to write its own history

Hurrah, I say!

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and Glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen

In light of the British troops conduct in Iraq I take it the 'glorious' above will be removed then?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:41 AM

I agree that it is almost certain things would be much worse for the republican movement, had the armed struggle not taken place. However in view of some of the terrible outrages that were committed during that struggle, I think that the epithet 'glorious' is inappropriate in this context.
Giok

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:52 AM

Peter, Can you be serious, discrimination no longer exsists in in the sick six?, you keep providing the laughs, and I will continue to read your profound thoughts.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:44 PM

So, then Peter K (Fionn), (... as he ignores the glaring alter-ego in parentheses....), when did it all end then; this systematic, institutionalised discrimination of yours? And where is this statistical data that is all ready?

Have they stopped vetting job candidatures through the Loyal Orders, then?
Can you provide statistical data for this?
Was there ever any statistical data to begin with?
Can false negatives be proven?

Peter K (Fionn)
If the real world you claim you live in is not hunky dory, imagine how imperfect it is for the rest of us, who experience reality at a grass-roots level.
And as you said yourself, unless you are being naturally stupid, discrimination exists where it can.
And where it can, Peter K (Fionn), the law doesn't witness.

I never thought I would have to explain this to anyone Peter K (Fionn); it's like Collusion... have we not beaten this subject to death before?

Instead of trying to wax nostalgic, anecdotal and troll-like, and trying to sweep the past and present under that carpet of yours in the process, perhaps you could account for all the non hunky-doryishness that exists in your reality, and tell me who still is the guardian of bastionism where you live.

Things are changing. That much we can all agree on.
It would not have happened without the Glorious Armed Struggle, as I'm sure we can all agree on as well.

Tiocfaidh an samhradh
(.. cos the day's nearly there...)

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:48 PM

Tiocfaidh: on the assumption that you are not being deliberately stupid, I will try to explain. In the first quote of mine that you've reproduced above, I was talking about statistical data that all NI employers have been obliged to maintain for many years. I made that perfectly clear. In the second I was talking about evidence that the law had been broken in a specific individual case. That too I made explicitly clear. There need be not the slightest inconsistency in taking one view about the former and another about the latter. I hope that's helped you to understand.

Nothing is ever hunky dory. We live in the real world.

What identity crisis?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM

"Unless you can support your claim with evidence or sources, I'm inclined to think you've swallowed some idle gossip." - 18 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM

"Getting the evidence is never easy" - 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 AM

Make up your mind, will you!

I take it you know where CAIN is....

Go do your own leg work Peter K (Fionn), and stop pretending everything's hunky dory.

(and do something about your identity crisis, will you...?)

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:51 AM

Tiocfaidh, obviously as I have already said, discrimination exists wherever it can. What you're talking about, and what I question, is systematic, institutionalised discrimination. Unless you can support your claim with evidence or sources, I'm inclined to think you've swallowed some idle gossip.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:35 AM

If you want to deny that religious discrimitation exists in the NI workforce, why don't you produce the facts to support your viewpoint, Peter K (Fionn).
Others have made the specific allegations about those Councils, and they are well documented...

Go fetch...

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:52 PM

What does 'Folklore' metamorphose into, once you take the rose-tinted specs off? Well you tell me, Tiocfaidh. It was you who made the allegations about those specific councils. What proportions of Catholics and Protestants do they employ? If you don't know, perhaps you'd find out and let us know. All NI employers have been obliged to document the ratio for years, so they should be able to tell you quite easily.

Dianavan, one reason "they" don't accept "majority rule in one, united Ireland" is that one united Ireland does not exist. By the time it does, the so-called loyalists may well accept majority rule, because there will have been a sea-change in attitudes on both sides for a united Ireland to have been achieved.

I notice that ministers in the republic's government are now interfering directly in the campaigning presently underway in NI constituencies in the run-up to the UK general election on May 5. They are hinting at the idea that they might launch a campaign to win popular support for a 32-county Ireland, but my reading of this is that it is no more than a cynical ploy by the governing Fianna Fail party. They are seriously panicked by the prospect of Sinn Feinn becoming electorally strong on both sides of the border, and seemingly will stop at nothing to prevent it.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM

Brilliant

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:52 PM

kendall - Why should they leave? Why can't they accept majority rule in one, united Ireland? If they can't accept that, maybe they should find another country where they (the minority) will be in a position of social and political power. Doesn't seem that hard to figure.

Hey, I know! They could convert to Judaism and move to Israel. They would be in the majority in their own little nation surrounded by a majority of Muslims. Just like home!

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,p o neill
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM

Tiocfaidh, have you ever considered a job in politics? Its good to talk. . . .

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM

If, as you claim I so rightly point out, Chris B, that "that part of the problem stems from the Nationalist community having a 'British' identity forced on them gainst their will", where does the rest of the problem lie, and lets see if we can't resurrect the old 'Chicken & Egg' parallax to try and explain it?

Jaded, as you may well be, about hearing 'victim' trips coming from those living in our "affluent" countries, Chris please try to remember that it was because of that very point, that few thought the injustices brought upon the Irish people could happen in the first place.
People still think Apartheid was a purely South African concept, Chris B.
Could never happen here, Chris.
Not in a million years!

Don't suppose it did then?

Or does still, eh Peter K (Fionn)?
What does 'Folklore' metamorphose into, once you take the rose-tinted specs off?

Anyway, Chris B, I would like the date and the appropriate references to where "Gerry Adams last said that a United Ireland would be 'Socialist, Catholic and Gaelic'"?

Maybe in your next life, you might be born again as a pair of rose-tinted glasses.

It's getting to be a fashion statement, these days...

Wherever they felt like kendall, I would imagine.
And much the same as before, I would further to hope....

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:27 AM

I don't want to take sides here, not with our history, but I wonder, if the people of Northern Ireland, and the people of the Falkland Islands were to leave, where would they go? How would they live?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM

...And before anyone starts bitching about anonymous 'Guests', that was me.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:14 AM

'Since when have British people accepted the Irish living among them, Chris?' Well, I can only speak for the last 48 years so I would guess it was sometime before that. Sure, there have been more difficult periods, particularly around the time of the Guildford and Birmingham bombings. But still, I would much rather be an Irish person living in England than a Palestinian living in Israel, a Moroccan 'guest worker' in Germany or an Afican asylum seeker living in Ennis, Co. Clare.

You are quite right, of course, to point out that part of the problem stems from the Nationalist community having a 'British' identity forced on them gainst their will by the majority and the British State. However, how long is it since Gerry Adams last said that a United Ireland would be 'Socialist, Catholic and Gaelic'? Let's not forget either that Sinn Fein was founded by a notorious Anti-Semite (Arthur Griffith).

Ireland since the Republic's secession from the UK is not a society that has a particularly good record when it comes to accepting people from other cultures and traditions, certainly in the countryside and the small towns. Look at how Irish travellers are treated in their own country, for instance.

I don't see why Britain 'should' be in Ireland apart from the fact that a lot of people living in Ireland consider themselves British. Still, by that logic I suppose Earl's Court should be part of Australia.

I am, however, starting to get a little jaded by the insistence of people from one of the most affluent countries in the world on considering themselves as victims. That isn't to belittle the suffering of anyone who has been affected, directly or indirectly, by what has been happening since 1969/69 or even further back. Nor does it excuse any of the injustices that have been suffered as a result.

But anyone who wants to be accepted anywhere (which I assume you would like to be) needs to occasionally consider whether that acceptance is made easier or more difficult by constantly drawing attention to the chip on your shoulder. Especially when, to be blunt, there are plenty of people in the world who have it a lot worse.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM

Mention of the demographic/birthrate issue prompts me make this observation:

The future belongs to those who get born!

The more educated/sophisticated/"enlightened" factions of the Western world, if they care about survival and continuing influence, should keep this in mind. Those who are too busy with their "careers" to reproduce themselves are volunteering for the trashheap of history.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Grab
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

Obie, you might like to look more carefully at your history. Hong Kong was only ever *leased* from China. Rightly or wrongly, Ireland was conquered by the British by force of arms. Sure, we could revert to the shape the countries were before that - but that would be to deny that hundreds of years of history have happened between. In a similar vein, would you like all of northern France to be handed back to the British? because historically that was part of England and was only won by France through force of arms.

As for solving the "Irish problem" by giving the choice to the Northern Irish - the UK government has given them two clear tries at self-rule (once in the 70s and once recently), and each time the only thing the Unionists and Republicans could agree was that they didn't want the responsibility and wouldn't sit down together. Maybe once Trimble, Paisley, McGuinness and Adams are all safely dead then we'll see a generation that can make rational decisions, but this lot simply can't.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 AM

Big Tim, the present IRA arose from the turmoil caused by civil rights demonstations that bagan in the mid-1960s when it was impossible, except by protest, to question the injustices of the Stormont regime. Those who complained to Westminster were simply referred back to the legitimate government of Northern Ireland (Stormont) which, of course, was responsible for the abuses.

From 1970, the Provos detonated thousands of bombs and killed many police and military - and alas some civilians - all treated as criminal acts by the sovereign power. Those imprisoned have been released, they have seen off the RUC, they have seen an end to all the abuses that gave rise to the civil rights movement - and of course, they have kept their weapons. It seems quite reasonable to me that Brendy (whom I was quoting) should say they've won.

Poppagator in wanting to add three more counties to NI for the purpose of a referendum, is still assuming people in the republic would vote for a united Ireland. It just isn't so. And in any case, so long as reconciliation and stability can be achieved north and south, within a strong EU, what does it matter whether government is from Dublin or Westminster?

Tiocfaidh, discrimination festers where it can. But there is now good law to protect victims, whether the discrimination is because of race, sex, disability or religion. I suspect that some of what you hear is folklore but where inequality is suspected people should take action, if necessary pursuing claims to the European Court of Human Rights. Getting the evidence is never easy but persistence pays off. My brother took his case to the highest court in the UK (House of Lords) which found in his favour, creating new case law. As his union had not supported him, he took action against them too, and that case has now reached the ECHR in strasbourg.

Much as I despise Blair, we are no longer talking about the Britain of the 19th Century, which treated elements of its own population abominably too. For many years - effectively since the Major-Reynolds declaration - the UK has had the complete confidence of the international community in its handling of NI. The US, the EU, the UN and the republic of Ireland itself all take the view that the UK is acting in good faith to achieve a fair settlement.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:35 AM

Giok - When I referred to Brits, I meant those who consider themselves English, rather than Irish. Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I should have said Protestants.

One Ireland would mean a Catholic majority and a Protestant minority. Thats democracy for you. Then again, maybe One Ireland would be able to get past politics informed by religion. Its about time.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:16 PM

"Question: if British people are able to accept the presence of a community in Britain who consider themselves Irish and hold Irish citizenship (like me) what is so difficult about Irish people accepting that there is a community in Ireland that considers itself British?

Since when have British people accepted the Irish living among them, Chris? I've been away for a while... Has this happened sometime within the last two weeks, perhaps?
Odd thing about the second part of your statement.. I don't think the problem ever was about the Irish acceptance of a community who considered themselves British living here.
I think the problem was the Irish acceptance of a community who not only called themselves British, but insisted you were, as well.

"My daughter and her chums at a Catholic secondary school in Belfast have never known a world in which Catholics were denied public housing and almost any kind of job"

That's nice, Peter K (Fionn), but tell her that in order for you to keep your rose-tinted glasses suitably polished, she should not apply for a job at Craigavon Borough Council, nor Lisburn, nor Ballymena, nor....

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: The Curator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM

Sorry Bruce, I have no sense of direction. You ear bumped into the Isle of Man

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM

...Britain isn't actually in Ireland, it's a few miles to the East of Ireland in the middle of the sea just off Europe, didn't you know that?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: The Curator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

Folks as this thread is probably coming to the end of it's run, I would like to thank each and everyone who contributed. There were some great questions posed. Obviously I don't have the answers, just aspirations. I would guess that in the fullness of time what we will see is an International Europe where countries will still hold their culture, but not to the extent that they will fight with their neighbours to preserve it.As their neighours will be just like themselves, multi cultural.I have never seen so many different nationalites now living in my part of the North. I have no problem with that (just as long as they don't knock the rest of my teeth out)! Thanks.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 11:37 AM

Lets get shot of these 'six provinces' then we can get on with pushing for an English Government.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM

Charlie Haughey will take them off your hands; for a price!
G

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:01 AM

There are only three possible situations for the six provinces.

1. Part of the United Kingdom.

2. Part of Eire.

3. Total independance.

Total independance would hand them over to those organised criminals, the IRA and 'loyalist' terrorists, and inflame a large proportion of the population.

Eire doesn't want the six counties any more than the UK does. Even if Eire would take them, then the UK would probably still have to put up with most of the current problems, and they would be that much harder to deal with as they were now based totally in a forign country.

Is any change of status going to improve life for the residents of the six counties, Eire or the UK?

Can we sell them to the US?

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Torctgyd
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM

J'G'M,

I thinking of the reasons for the 6 counties to stay in the UK&NI rather than the likely swing the otherway if the demographic changes continue as they have been doing.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM

Question: if British people are able to accept the presence of a community in Britain who consider themselves Irish and hold Irish citizenship (like me) what is so difficult about Irish people accepting that there is a community in Ireland that considers itself British? If there is a united Ireland (which I think is eventually likely) would the British community in Ireland have the same rights and freedom to express themselves that I enjoy in England? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:46 AM

That might change if the new pope was in favour of birth control . . .

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:19 AM

The reverse is true of Northern Ireland with the Republican population increasing faster than the Loyalists, another factor in the Loyalist's seige mentality.
Giok

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Torctgyd
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:50 AM

It strikes me as amusing that so many Americans (citizens of the USA) have, over the years, said 'Brits Out' but fail to consider that the US Government did to Hawaii exactly what the Brits did to the 6 counties. That is planted their own settlers there and then had a referendum to join the USA once the native Hawaiians were outnumbered 10:1.

T

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:17 AM

Dianavan, please explain what you mean when you call some people in the north "Brits"
Giok

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:44 AM

Dianavan, I only meant that even in the 6 counties, the descendants of the settlers will become a minority because of demgraphy(emigration and a lower birth rate).

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:55 PM

Keith A of Hertford - I totally agree that some Brits have been in Ireland longer than many of the "whites" in N. America. I fail to see, however, why your statement has anything to do with a democratic majority. Can you explain?

Seems to me that by now they are all Irish and in a whole Ireland, the Brits would become a minority. Thats all. Something wrong with that?

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM

The fireworks could be interesting.

Mind, I've always thought that that'd be a good way for the IRA and the rest to get rid of the weaponry - all the bullets being shot off into the air, before being blown up in a massive firworks display.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

It'll be one hell of a party when it happens. We are going to be treated to an extravaganza of music and fireworks unseen before.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

As has been noted, NI is a relatively phony political construct, gerrymandered into existence almost a century ago:

If all of Ulster (all nine counties) were to have a referendum, the Unionists would lose. They've always been in the minority province-wide.

If voting were on a county-by-county basis, only three or four of the six current NI counties would remain outside the Republic. Granted, they would be the most populous and most industrialized areas, but what legitimacy and what chance of survivial would an even smaller "statelet" have?

Irish Protestants probably had fairly legitimate fears about living in a united Ireland during most of the twentieth century, when the Catholic Church wielded inordinate influence over civil affairs in a theocratic young Republic. However, those days are clearly over.

It probably is just a matter of time before the most belligerant adversaries grow old and die off. As the younger generations grow up and take their places in the adult world, much of the ancient hatred (along with memories of the well-founded reasons for some of that ill will) will be forgotten.

I say, set a date! What was good for Hong Kong is certainly just as appropriate for Northern Ireland. And I agree that 25 years is probably too long to wait. If five years is too soon, certainly ten should be workable.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

So Britain is still in Ireland, and that after Peter K. telling us just the other day that, "The IRA had won".

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: The Curator
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM

Forgive me for not making any contribution to the thread I started. I think it best to watch from the sidelines. Have to give it to you, makes great reading.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

If I remember my Irish history in only 4 counties was there a majority vote to remain under British rule The other 2 counties were forced into this 'union' as it made more sense geographically. Not exactly a good reason was it?
Giok

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

I know that going on about language can become an obsessional bore, but when people do use some ways of putting it, that tends to it undermines anything else they say, which is a pity, because very often what they are saying doesn't derseve to be undermined. And in these days of the Internet it really is pretty easy to get it right.

Ulster is a province of Ireland under foreigh rule. No it isn't, it's a province made up of nine counties, and only six of them are in Northern Ireland.

"the Brits in the north " They may be Unionists or Loyalists, or Protetants or Ulsterfolk or whatever - but you'll never hear them saying they are "Brits", however firm they are in their wish to remain linked with the neighbouring island.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

I don't mind Eire having Northern Ireland back as long as the English can have Camden Town, Cricklewood, & Liverpool back ;-)

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM

Dead on post, Grab - especially the last paragraph.

Clinging to snapshots of history that are lost in the mists of time ("Ulster is a province of Ireland," etc) is completely unhelpful. There is a woman in Derry called Edith Sekules. Before fleeing to the UK from the Baltic region she lived under five successive sovereignties without moving house. I'm breaching no confidence, because it's in her autobiography, published a couple of years ago. What she must make of the constant wittering about nationality in Northern Ireland I often wonder.

The outcome of an all-Ireland referendum would not be the no-brainer shanghaiceltic suggests. Across the republic there are whole swathes of people who have no interest whatsoever in a united Ireland and would see in it nothing but trouble. For politically aware northern Catholics, this indifference rankles more than anything. They take from it a deep-rooted sense of betrayal. But the fact is, it's easy for the republic to be paternalistic about a protestant minority almost too small to measure. Much more difficult to cope with a minority when it is 25 per cent - and probably predisposed to extreme belligerence. No wonder the republic wishes the north would go away.

Certainly partition was forced on Ireland. In fact it was forced on Lloyd George too, by the Tories on whom he depended to stay in power. But forced or not, Ireland's delegates thought they had full plenipotentiary authority to sign the treaty on behalf of their country, and did so. To rule out any doubt, the treaty was also endorsed by the Irish parliament. Michael Collins had every reason to hope this was a big step towards a united Ireland. But instead of working for such an outcome, De Valera led his country into a ruinous civil war. His choice of course. But he set back the prospect of a united Ireland by at least a century.

When the UK presided over the partition of India, population relocation was part of the equation. Rightly that is no longer acceptable, if only as a result of the Balkans experience. But it means the only future for Northern Ireland is reconciliation. If that is achieved, and the EU holds together, the question of national sovereignty will hardly matter in any practical sense.

My instincts are often with the Curator. But my instincts are no basis for progress. So long as we see everything in black and white, or in terms of victory and defeat, we will be part of the problem, not part of the solution.

My daughter and her chums at a Catholic secondary school in Belfast have never known a world in which Catholics were denied public housing and almost any kind of job, and in which electoral boundaries were gerrymandered to guarantee the protestant ascendancy. That happened in my lifetime, but not theirs. They have little interest in nationalism of any sort, and this indifference augurs well for the future.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:02 AM

Which must lead to the logical conclusion that it was mostly the Irish people killing and bombing each other not the English.

It is a matter of historical fact the the Irish protestants in Northern Ireland treated the catholics worse than 2nd class citizens.

eric

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

MANY PROTESTANTS LIVE IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND WHO ARE NOT UNDER BRITISH RULE WHY? DID BRITAIN ABANDON THEM, BECAUSE TO HAVE INCLUDED THEM THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE MAJORITY THEY ONLY TOOK SIX OF THE NINE COUNTIES OF ULSTER AND LEFT THREE OUT, AFTER ALL WHEN BRITAIN INVADED IRELAND THEY PLANTED THEM HERE.THE CURATOR WAS RIGHT IN SAYING OUT OF IRELAND, IRELAND IS IRELAND WEATHER IT IS NORTH SOUTH EAST OR WEST AND NO MATTER WHAT PART ANYBODY COMES FROM THEY ARE AS IRISH AS THE SOIL THEY WERE BORN ON

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:11 AM

Well you've posed a good one there Curator and I largely agree with you, I don't know the answer but what do you think ? we know your reasons but you can't offer any solution either.

eric

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM

Do many people visit Northern Ireland? When people from the rest of the U.K. or the Republic of Ireland speak of Northern Ireland, do they know what they're talking about?

Well I've never visited, I suppose because on the times I was able to get to any part of Ireland, Dublin was too convenient. I suppose the closest I have come is having had friends from both sides in NI but the troubles have never been a topic of conversation.

The closest I remember was a conversation I had when we were giving 2 people originaly from Belfast lifts home from a session and it emerged one was a catholic and the other a protestant and one joked "we are swarn enemies" (they were good friends of course and had been regulars in the session for a couple of years). The other asked that we changed the subject at that point. The incident always reminds me of the song "Then There Were Roses" BTW.

The bottom line is I know little about the situation and it is just a feeling of a past injustice(s) that tend me slightly towards the green. That said, I do believe the situation in NI is extremely complicated and am not convinced that it could be solved as simply as just "Brits out".

As far as I see it, it is really up to the people of NI to strive for peace, to put years of bitterness and wrongs (on both sides) behind them and to ingnore those who seem to want to shit stir.

Subject: RE: Why should Britain remain in Ireland ?
From: GUEST,ceejay
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:57 AM

Its clear to what extent the media have coloured people's ideas on Northern Ireland. Some of the terminology is so confused one would think that the situation is akin to a Balkan scenario. But in fact the large majority of the population of the entire island have always (when asked for their opinions) wanted a united country. It was the frustration of this aspiration by Britain that brought about the 'Troubles' of the 1920s and the 1969 -94 eras. As JFK once remarked, 'those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable', or words to that effect.

Yes, Ireland will one day be re-united and the vast majority of her people will live together just as amicably as they now mostly do. They won't necessarily all immediately love the idea but the difference will be that those extremists who might wish to continue to perpetrate violence for purposes of revenge will soon no longer have even the muted sympathies of their parent communities.

Within the EU (and outside it) there are nations such as Belgium and Holland internally divided on religious, linguistic and/or ethnic lines. All of them had their problems, some still have, but compromise was eventually reached, even if it meant spending extra money that some consider to be 'wasted' on ensuring that all historical cultures were equally cherished.

To get people in a 'realistic' frame of mind, a date should be set for the withdrawal of British control. This would eliminate the veto that Unionists, a minority of the population, have held with the support of the British govt, on progress towards a final settlement. A guarantee of dual citizenship for any who wish to retain a personal British connection extending down to those born up to the hand-over date should be part of the changeover, allowing the present generations and those born over the transition period time to adjust. Resettlement would, I predict , not be a large-scale issue, even in relation to Northern Ireland's small population of 1.5 mil.