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Subject: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:50 PM This seems to me to be very wrong, I cannot see anything lewd when the arm movements are taken in the context of the dance. Personaly I think the haka when well performed is quite spectacular. Kiwi anger at Gallipoli 'ban on lewd haka' By Paul Chapman in Wellington (Filed: 25/04/2005) Suggestions that Turkey may stop the Maori haka war dance being performed during ceremonies today marking the 90th anniversary of the ill-fated Gallipoli landings have stirred indignation in New Zealand. The row began when Turkish newspapers reported that the office of RecepTayyip Erdogan, the prime minister, wanted to ban the haka because it was deemed "obscene" and "pornographic". Officials were said to have declared some of the dance's movements, notably a forward thrusting of the right arm, "sexually suggestive". One newspaper quoted diplomatic sources as saying that the haka was "against traditional Turkish values, and so it has to be removed from the programme". Last night Mr Erdogan's office denied that a ban had been imposed. Wg Cdr Tim Walshe of the Royal New Zealand Air Force, speaking from Gallipoli, said: "We are aware that there is some sensitivity associated with the haka." He said there was no intention to make the dance part of the official ceremonies, although in recent years New Zealanders attending the services have staged their own unofficial performances. Pita Sharples, the co-leader of the Maori Party, said: "I am deeply offended by the comments made.'' |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,Vinyl & CD Junkie Date: 25 Apr 05 - 05:52 AM Is there anyone from the Gallipoli campaign still alive? If there are not, what is the point of the ceromony? |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,Wotcha Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:19 AM Guest: Lest we forget ... THE ODE OF REMEMBRANCE They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, Nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun, And in the morning, We will remember them. Lest we forget. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: robomatic Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM One of the few videos I have watched more than once is "The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century." It was put out less than five years ago over US Public Broadcasting. I knew next to nothing about the First World War before this. I think if we are going to observe the 100th anniversary in 2015, we're bound to make an effort for the 90th. Speaking cynically, there will be a lot of folk who want to commemmorate the events if only because they saw the movie "Gallipolli". Speaking less cynically, the Turks probably want to commemmorate the events since it occurred on their territory and constitutes a victory for them and made a hero of Kemal Ataturk. Hence the allies will be there as well. Love the Haka. Was it practised by Maori or Kiwi troops in the 19-teens? |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:54 AM Vinyl Junkie, There are no living veterans of this campaign. Many family members of those who were killed attend the annual commemoration. Historically and emotionally, the event has great significance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:03 AM I'm bemused that the NZ Prime Minister banned Johnny Farnham from singing Waltzing Matilda in a live concert there - but a video tape of The Brothers Gibb was played on large screens... |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM I'm not sure if there were Maori troops at Gallipoli, but there were probably were. Those who would at the time have been called 'native troops', the Maori, the Gurkas etc were some of the best regiments in the army, and often ended up in the worst of the fighting. And if the All Blacks perform the haka before a rugby match, battalions of Maori about to go into battle certainly would. Bunnahabhain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Mingulay Date: 25 Apr 05 - 01:59 PM At a ceremony at the Menin Gate in Ieper (Ypres) last year on the last Saturday before Remembrance Day which was attended by a Combined Services party from New Zealand, a piper played a lament (the Dark Isle if I remember correctly), wreaths were laid, a military band played and the whole was topped off with a war party in native dress unexpectedly performing a haka. To hear that echoing round the Gate made one's hair stand on end and was a fitting tribute to the brave and selfless men who fought and died in Flanders. I am minded to think that the Turkish government are suffering from a very bad case of political and/or religious correctness (perhaps there's an election looming) which is most unbecoming in a country that seeks to enter the mainstream of the Western World. Shame on you Turkey for you welcome our money much more easily. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:52 PM "For their tomorrows, we gave our todays". I once met some survivors of Gallipoli. They were members of the Queens Own Dorset Yeomanry who were sent there to be part of the cavalry charge. 20 years ago, they had a dozen members left, every one of them a Gentleman. I don't care if there are no survivors of Gallipoli. I don't care if there are only a dozen or so survivors from the Great War; as long as one person remembers, as long as one wreath is laid, as long as one person stands in silence and remembers what those men and women did for us, all over the world, then their todays and those of all who were killed in action since, weren't given in vain. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: michaelr Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM All the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain The killing, the dying were all done in vain For Willie McBride, it all happened again... (Eric Bogle) Wars to end wars are like laws to end scars: They're insane... (Roy Harper) |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Rapparee Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM And the band played "Waltzing Matilda As they carried us down the gangway, But nobody cheered They just stood there and stared And they turned all their faces away. As a 'Nam era vet, I've identified with that. Still do. Whether the Great War, or any war, was justified or not I leave to the historians. Whether to honor those who fought, those who were wounded or maimed or killed, regardless of which side they were on...I can only leave that to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: mack/misophist Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:19 PM I am ignorant of the haka. Is there an on line video or a detailed description? |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:13 PM Its supposedly a 'welcome ceremony' which is meant to frighten away visitors not of stout and pure heart or something. It is very aggressive and intimidating, performed in a slight crouch or horse stance for those with Martial Arts backgrounds. Lots of stomping, jerky arm movements, and tongue sticking out with chanting. If I was a football player faced with that, I would give a 2 fingered salute and then turn around, bend over and drop my shorts. Give as good as you get, I say - fair's fair! |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,Vinyl & CD Junkie Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM Liz the Squeak, I take your point. Strange that you should mention the Dorset Yeomanry because my Grandfather's brother, Lance Corporal Henry Hatcher, was in the Dorset Yeomanry and was killed by a sniper in Egypt. My mother, his niece, has a scroll on the wall commemerating his death:"He whom this scroll commemerates.....etc, Let his name be not forgot"-and it hasn't. Between the two world wars, there was a minutes silence on Armastice Day throughout the land where everyone, and I mean everyone, would stop and remember the fallen of the Great War. Everyone but my grandfather. When asked why he didn't observe the minutes silence, he said that he didn't need a minutes silence to remember his brother as he thought about him all the time. That is my point. Remembering the dead only has meaning for those who personally knew the dead when alive. Commemerating the dead whom you did not know strikes me as an empty gesture. I can imagine old soldiers getting together to remember their fallen comrades, but I cannot understand why other members of their family would want to do it. If they held a commemeration for the fallen of the Dorset Yeomanry who fell in World War I, I wouldn't go. I never knew Henry Hatcher and neither did my mother. I wouldn't go if only out of respect for my late grandfather, whom I loved. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: AND THE BAND PLAYED WALTZING MATILDA From: 42 Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:45 PM full lyric of the piece quoted previously. One of the most moving and powerful songs I've even played. Until there is no one who remembers war; let alone has survived one - we should keep the mistakes of history close to our hearts and our minds. jen Band Played Waltzing Matilda Eric Bogle When I was a young man I carried me pack And I lived the free life of the rover From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback I waltzed my Matilda all over Then in 1915 my country said: Son, It's time to stop rambling, there's work to be done So they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun And they sent me away to the war And the band played Waltzing Matilda When the ship pulled away from the quay And amid all the tears, flag waving and cheers We sailed off for Gallipoli It well I remember that terrible day When our blood stained the sand and the water And how in that hell they call Suvla Bay We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter Johnny Turk, he was ready, he primed himself well He rained us with bullets, and he showered us with shell And in five minutes flat, we were all blown to hell He nearly blew us back home to Australia And the band played Waltzing Matilda When we stopped to bury our slain Well we buried ours and the Turks buried theirs Then it started all over again Oh those that were living just tried to survive In that mad world of blood, death and fire And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive While around me the corpses piled higher Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head And when I awoke in me hospital bed And saw what it had done, I wished I was dead I never knew there was worse things than dying Oh no more I'll go Waltzing Matilda All around the green bush far and near For to hump tent and pegs, a man needs both legs No more waltzing Matilda for me They collected the wounded, the crippled, the maimed And they shipped us back home to Australia The armless, the legless, the blind and the insane Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla And when the ship pulled into Circular Quay I looked at the place where me legs used to be And thank Christ there was no one there waiting for me To grieve and to mourn and to pity And the Band played Waltzing Matilda When they carried us down the gangway Oh nobody cheered, they just stood there and stared Then they turned all their faces away Now every April I sit on my porch And I watch the parade pass before me I see my old comrades, how proudly they march Renewing their dreams of past glories I see the old men all tired, stiff and worn Those weary old heroes of a forgotten war And the young people ask "What are they marching for?" And I ask myself the same question And the band plays Waltzing Matilda And the old men still answer the call But year after year, their numbers get fewer Someday, no one will march there at all Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me? And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong So who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 26 Apr 05 - 12:43 AM There were Maori soldiers at Gallipoli. I visited a musuem in Rotorua where there was a list of those who took part and more sadly those who never came back. As for memorial services it is not just for those that took part but also for those who have lost anyone in any conflict. Last year I was in Wellington for the ANZAC day service. I attended even though I have no personal loss amongst the ANZAC's but I did recall three friends lost in the Falklands and the waste of young men's lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: John O'L Date: 26 Apr 05 - 01:01 AM Shanghaiceltic - You have correctly identified the true meaning of ANZAC Day and any other war memorial service. It is so that we will not forget the waste that is the foremost outcome of any war. It is also to pay respect to those who were put into a position, through no fault of their own, where they had to kill and die because of the inadequacies of their political leaders. The haka is (or was) a war dance which is used nowdays as a showpiece at welcoming ceremonies and for intimidation at rugby matches. I can see why the Turks might take offense at some of the gestures involved in the haka which seem to disparage the sexual prowess of the enemy/opponant. It would certainly not be appropriate on the official programe, but I think it's a bit churlish of them if they are intending to ban it altogether. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:05 AM THERE ARE IGNORANT DILLS ALL OVER THIS WORLD THE HAKA IS TO N.Z. WHAT WALTZING MATILDA IS TO AUSTRALIANS THE TROUBLE WITH N.Z. IS YOUR PRIME MINISTER DRESSED IN DRAG |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:11 AM The last Australian veteran (of the Great War) died in 2002. The British still had 19 veterans in November 2004, all aged between 104 and 108. That number may have halved by now. At that point in time there was only one German survivor left, a Frenchman by the way, since 1918, for he comes from Alsace. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:34 AM Thankyou Shanghai Celtic. I've been to that mueseum in Rotarua, but I couldn't remember where the Maori had been in action. Too many places, just the same as any army. Bunnahabhain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 26 Apr 05 - 04:38 PM Meaning no disrespect to anyone, but reacting to Liz the Squeek's comment, what exactly did they all do for us? this was a war about nothing, fought by politicians with the bodies of their youths. The outcome might have been better for the world if the Germans had won and Hitler had been content to hang wallpaper and paint watercolors on his Sundays off. Some of the participants were brave, the leaders were guilty of cynical jingoism. Better the brave men had been brave enough to walk home alive. all those lost, what a shame, a crime against humanity to waste a generation like that. Their lives were certainly given in vain. Tell me what else they were given for then? It should be remembered, 'lest we forget', but not as a victory, as a wakening from a nightmare, as something we should all work to prevent from ever happening again. the haka is beautiful and powerful and spiritual, let those who are moved to perform it, and who carry the tradition of it, perform it, and the rest of us who are allowed to observe it, observe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: puck Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:45 PM I am happy with the comments made by Liz the Sqeak. I speak as a person who was brought up by a man who served at Gallipoli, and as a child who reaped the anger and depravity of a soldier who was injured both physically and mentally by his experiences there. He returned on a hospital ship with a shrapnel wound to his neck which would have taken his head clean off if he had been standing two inches to the right,; he also came home with dysentry, malaria and rheumatic fever. He suffered from recurring malaria until the day he died at the age of 94; I had personally seen him lying in his bed with a temperature of 104f with six blankets on his bed and with several overcoats on top of the bed shivering and complaining he was cold, [ Yeah! Billy Connelly got it right and everyone thinks it funny, except my Uncle Bryn didn't] he never married and never spent a penny on himself; he died the richest man in the graveyard because he lost his will and the ability to allow himself to enjoy his life. He felt truely guilty that he had survived where others had given their lives and he could not forgive himself for it. My Uncle was bad to me, but I now understand so much more about him and his war experiences since his passing and can forgive. Don't deny the Moaris their Haka - do not miscontstrue the meaning of their traditions, they are honest and genuine, and honour their fallen ancestors. puck |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:45 PM The Anzacs in WW I were not fighting Hitler as dictator of Germany, he was on the front lines in France as a Corporal, something the Wehrmacht never forgot... The Anzacs were not at Suvla by the way... |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: puck Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:52 PM My Uncle Bryn served in the Leinster Yeomandry and he told me that on the day they declared war in 1939, he openly cried his heart out. Everything that he and his comrades had fought for in the first world war '..The War to End All Wars' ... had been in vain |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: John O'L Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:23 PM Powerful stuff. The story of Puck's uncle, though singularly distressing, is only one of many. Lest we forget - It would seem that too many of us have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:16 AM Bill Kennedy, the Belgian civillians murdered by the invading Germans with the blessing of their high command experienced an indication of what life under a victorious Kaiser would have been like. The war poets were a university educated elite and not at all representative. Ordinary Tommies believed in the need to stop the Kaiser's army. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: rich-joy Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:05 AM Wolfgang, why do you think that the last Australian Great War veteran died in 2002 - I think that maybe three are still left - ??? Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: RobbieWilson Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:37 AM What they did for us was to die for the cause of ending war. A war which has not been won yet but which has moved on since a hundred years ago. Up to that point wars had requently been fought for Glory and gain and the point of commemmorating obscenities like the Galipoli campaign is to remember the futility and horror which is the reality of war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM The Bee Gees tape played to entertain the crowds waiting on the battlefiled memorial area for the service to begin unfortunately included the song "Stayin' Alive". It is most unlikely to be played in future years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Wolfgang Date: 27 Apr 05 - 12:02 PM Rich-Joy, I read it in the Guardian (which to some is not a reason to retell what they have read like if it was a fact) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 28 Apr 05 - 12:21 AM Robbie and LTS both have it. It is remembrance and in unlikely hope that other lives might not be wasted. Politicians start the wars and it is up to the military to finish it. That said it is young men and women who have to do this. It is those people I remember, particularly friends in my naval apprenticeship training who one became close to and then later saw their names on casualty lists. That is a nasty awakening when you are just 27 as I was back then. You know but for the grace of god.... The average age of those who served in the Falklands was about 22, the youngest lad on our boat was just shy of his 18th birthday. Most of our politicians have never served and will never know what it is to loose a good mate. I have changed my views over the years on war because of those untimely deaths of friends but I will always remember that they sacrificed their lives and not because we won. They did not win anything but a watery grave or a plot of soil on the Falklands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Apr 05 - 03:23 AM In WW1 and 2 most politicians had served and most had sons who were serving. Our career politicians of today do not bear comparison. At least our Royal Family still knows it's duty. (Prince Andrew was on active service in the S. Atlantic fighting) |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Little Robyn Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:44 AM I believe the last Gallipoli vet has died but there are still a few left from the rest of WW1. Robyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: rich-joy Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:20 AM Yeah, a quick Google revealed that in Aug 2001 there were 20 WWI veterans left in Oz and by May 2002, only 16 - but I didn't come across a later figure. I thought the ABC-TV news in the last week mentioned only 3 still alive, when the chap from Perth was in the actual Anzac Day parade. I wonder how many New Zealanders are left??? Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM Let us not forget, the dead are not the only casulties. I have a dream- a dreadful dream- A dream that is never done. I watched a man go out of his mind, And he is My Mother's Son. They Pushed him in a Mental Home, And that is like the grave: For they do not let you sleep upstairs, And you aren't allowed to shave. And it was not disease or crime Which got him landed there, But because They laid on My Mother's Son More than a man could bear. What with noise, and fear of death, Waking, and wounds and cold, They filled the cup of My Mother's Son Fuller than it could hold. They broke his body and his mind And yet They made him live, And They asked more of My Mother's Son Than any man could give. For, just because he had not died, Nor been discharged nor sick, They dragged it out with My Mother's Son Longer than he could stick…. And no one knows when he'll get well- So, there he'll have to be: And 'spite of the beard in the looking-glass, I know that man is me! The Mothers Son. Kipling |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Little Robyn Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:59 AM OK, it's all over and no haka was officially part of the programme. However, Chief of Defence Force Air Marshall Bruce Ferguson and three members of the Defence Kapa Haka party went live on a Turkish news television show and explained the haka, the arm actions and the facial expressions. It went down well with the studio audience and the phones started going from viewers as well. The TV presentation could lead to a haka becoming part of future ANZAC services at Gallipoli. Turkish Army officer and liaison officer for the NZ visit, Major Vedat Zamir said the show had a deep impact on the Turkish people. He said the haka was not now seen as objectionable and an earlier suggestion that it was offensive arose out of a misunderstanding. "This is our heartfelt wish that next year it will be held." According to this morning's Dominion Post! Robyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 30 Apr 05 - 04:50 AM A Goverment changing it's mind, just because its initial decision was wrong? And for a good cause. Whatever next, Common sense? Bunnhabhain |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Ironmule Date: 01 May 05 - 01:07 AM A link to the All Black haka videos. Ain't google a wonderful thing? During the TV coverage of the America's Cup races, I used to get severely annoyed at the announcers who talked over the top of every Haka performance. Jeff Smith |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: matai Date: 01 May 05 - 08:14 AM In NZ most schools have a Maori/Polynesian group that all children can join if they wish. So many kids learn to do the Haka, even red-haired white boys like my son. It is like our traditional dance and used in many ceremonies to present an aspect of our culture. It is often offset by women doing poi dances then both groups combining in Waiata (song). Because it is such an innate part of being a New Zealander it seems laughable that a government would consider banning it. Then again the Haka was originally a war dance so I can understand how some might be offended. These days I'd suggest it is as inoffensive as Morris dancing though some Maori might not thank me for making the comparison. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,liberalhater Date: 01 May 05 - 05:54 PM Despite what the ignorant might say, Morris dancing is very good when done properly. It would be more seemly for the 'English' descendents in New Zealand to do Morris dancing than the Haka. I reckon that the Maoris must cringe when they see their war dance been appropriated by their conquerors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 01 May 05 - 09:21 PM I thought most of the British settlers in New Zealand, especially South Island, were Scots, not English, and so Scottish dance would be more common. There are certainly lots of Highland Dancers from N.Z. about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST Date: 01 May 05 - 09:50 PM liberalhater, "I reckon that the Maoris must cringe when they see their war dance been appropriated by their conquerors. " I was not aware that the Maoris were conquered- I thought it was a draw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: Little Robyn Date: 02 May 05 - 04:23 AM "It would be more seemly for the 'English' descendents in New Zealand to do Morris dancing than the Haka." And so we do! On Petone Beach last Saturday! Also on Mount Victoria in Auckland on Mayday! Robyn from 'Heart of the Sun' Morris side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: michaelr Date: 03 May 05 - 01:12 AM The obvious fusion -- Maorris dancing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,jimmy Date: 20 May 05 - 05:04 AM i need to learn how to do the haka in actions. I am English. I know the words to the haka but i just don't know the actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: No Haka at Gallipoli? From: GUEST,Lt.Col.Vedat ZAMÝR,Liaision officer for the Date: 07 Jan 06 - 11:04 AM ÝN MY OPÝNÝON THERE ÝS MÝSUNDERSTANDÝNG ABOUT THE PERFORMACE OF THE HAKA DANCE.ACTUALLY NOBADY HASBEEN OFFENDED ÝN TURKEY FOR THE FIGURES OF THE HAKA BUT IT HAS BEEN FOUND ÝNTERESTING AND UNUSUAL BECEUSEOF THE ÝNTERESTÝNG FÝGURES THATS ALL!THATSWHY I CAN SAY THAT IT LEFT DEEP ÝMPACT ON TURKISH PEOPLE ASWELL! |
