BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:06 PM

Thank you, Rum.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,rumanci
Date: 22 May 05 - 07:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 21 May 05 - 08:28 PM

I seem to remember Bobby Sands getting 14 years with no bail hearing for the same offence as Shoukri (Possession of a weapon). It will be interesting to see how much time he serves. My guess is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:16 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:29 AM

Regarding the Loyalists, wielding those weapons, the following information will give you an insight into Brit collusion with these murderers.

A senior UDA boss facing a murder charge was released on bail at Belfast Crown Court yesterday, [20-5-05].

William "Mo" Courtney is accused of murdering Alan McCullough a former UDA member and associate of Johnny Adair.
Courtney is the latest in a long line of Loyalist leaders to be granted bail while facing serious criminal charges.

In March 32 year-old Laurence Kincaid, a senior north Belfast loyalist, was granted bail despite facing charges of possessing class A drugs with intent to supply.

UDA leader Andre Shoukri was granted bail while facing charges of possessing a gun with intent to endanger life.
Shoukri had been caught with the gun during a loyalist feud in 2003. The trial judge ruled the self-confessed UDA leader was "not a danger to the public".

In December Ihab Shoukri, a brother of Andre and also a leading UDA figure, was granted bail while facing charges of murdering Alan McCullough.

In July 2003, Jim Fulton, a leading loyasist had his bail conditions changed so that he could take part in the July 12 marches.

Nationalist politicians and community leaders have expressed concern at the leniency courts have shown towards leadind loyalists.
Some have suggested that loyalists are being shown leniency because of Special Branch and British army intelligence links to loyalist paramilitaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:11 AM

"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.") -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD).

Also the origin of the term "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:36 PM

Murder and revenge are the long standing problems. Indoctrinating successive generations to hate each other only procreates violence and destruction. Weapons are not really the problem, it is the will not to use them first that is lacking. Courage in surrendering weapons shows good faith and willingness to try peacefull coexistance.
Without that show of commitment only the extremists rule. So far we see some IRA willingness to do this, but a one sided show will not satisfy anyone. Weapons can be replaced, so can the will to use them Loyalists must disarm too to show commitment to this peace initiative or it will surely fail....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:50 PM

It's difficult to keep yer hands clean when you get blood all over them, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: The Curator
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:06 PM

A point to remember is it was loyalists that shot dead the first RUC officer in the conflict. And it was loyalists that killed the last one with a pipe bomb. These are the same people Paisley, Robinson and McCrea stand shoulder to shoulder with.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:04 PM

And they say Irish Americans don't know what they are talking about. Go back to sleep, Ted.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:59 PM

Flamenco Te - you do not know what you are talking about.

Others that have a much longer history of lying therough their teeth include
- The British Government
- The Northern Ireland Government
- The British Army
- The Police Services of Northern Ireland - formerly known as the   Royal Ulster Constabulary

Almost every loyalist politician that ever servced as Prime Minister (with the ecxception of Terence O'Neill)

The I.R.A. are still the ones who have adhered to teh cease-fire. If you want to give your 5 cents worth please get a little informed. There have been loyalists murders, kidnappings, drug dealing and violence almost on a daily basis and not one word prineted in many of the inetrnational newspapers. Just last week a murder was committed by loyalists outside the Chimney Corner Club, due to a drug deal gone bad - where is the outcry.

If this had been tagged on rebublicas it would hav ebeen all over the T.V, Newspapers, Radio for weeks on end.

There are many way to fight, some use a gun, some use a pen and at present the loyalists have the greatest number of pens !!!!!

I think in all honesty it is the rebublicans who have more reason to hold on to their weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:56 PM

Ignore Ted he can't help himself chipping in on these conversations. He wasn't very visible on the thread asking for reasons for the Brits to stay in NI. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 May 05 - 03:49 PM

Flamenco Te - yoou do not know what you are talking about.

Others that have a much longer history of lying therough teir teeth include
- The British Government

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:19 PM

Computer still working. Thanks for the 'refresh'.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 20 May 05 - 10:43 AM

flamenco ted maybe you'd care to elaborate. What would you say to all the innocent catholic families that have had loved ones butchered by loyalists? I'm sure your words would be comforting.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 20 May 05 - 04:50 AM

If I had a gun and was also a loyalist, I would hang onto it like grim death becacuse the IRA/Sinn Fein have a long long history of lying through their teeth!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:54 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 19 May 05 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Rumanci and everyone who has written a letter. Thanks Dave for spearheading that. US catters can help too. US special envoy Mitchell Reiss needs to be educated too. This from the Belfast Telegraph:

Earlier yesterday in Belfast, Mr Bush's envoy set out the US administration's assessment of the situation, putting fresh pressure on the IRA to declare its total rejection of violence and backing for democracy, saying progress hinged on them making the right response.

Mr Reiss said he wanted a quick reply to the pre-election call by Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams for the IRA to abandon violence and it was vital that response is "very positive and unambiguous.

"Everybody is waiting to see Gerry Adams' call to the IRA. And I think that once we get that response, we will be in a better position to evaluate whether we can reach a deal or not."

He admitted there were concerns the situation could worsen if there was no early response from the IRA and things were allowed to drift through the summer. "Everyone I have spoken with so far recognises the need for the IRA to respond positively and everyone has said sooner is better than later. You are either going forward or you are not."

No such call apparently was made to the loyalists to give up their weapons or abandon violence. The UDA (Ulster Defense Association) remains the largest sectarian paramilitary organization in Northern Ireland. Yet there seems to be little or no pressure placed upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: rumanci
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:26 PM

Mail has been sent to my MP and a supremely non-informative reply received ......I will try another nudge in his direction ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 05 - 09:39 AM

Thank you, Robbie.

Seems the main server is down but this proxy may NOT be taken down. However, who knows? Thank you all for keeping this thread 'up there'.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 05 - 11:21 AM

I'll try to remember. Trouble is I have a memory like a. errr.. ummm... thingy.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 18 May 05 - 09:34 AM

Hi all. It looks like our computer network will be down for about two days. Would someone be kind enough to help me fulfill my promise to Tiocfaidh? If you can and will, thank you very much. I think this is an important thread.

Bruce Murdoch

(Hey, maybe it ain't gonna help, but it ain't gonna hurt, either.)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:35 PM

Guest 12.42,

Yes, I never mentioned used the words Loyalist and terrorist together. I also never used the words Republician and terrorist together. But they are terrorists, on both sides.

"The Loyalists are far less active than the Republicans on the mainland" I did mean to make that past tense, ie, "the Loyalist were far less...."; and specifying everything, " The Loyalists were less active than the IRA on the mainland of Britian, until the IRA declared a ceasefire", makes it three times as long, and appauling to read.

My last sentance was simply to point out that, just maybe, the similarities between the people are more important than the diffrences.

I am not trying to cause trouble, or delibratly mis-interpret what anyone says. If I was going to do that, I wouldn't put my name on it.

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 17 May 05 - 09:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:00 AM

Samuel Johnson. But I think we need to bear in mind he said it in the 1770's. He probably didn't mean it in the context that people should be above defending their country against invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:58 AM

Samuel Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 May 05 - 05:03 AM

Loyalist/unionist/terrorist, all the same thing.

Who was it who said that ' patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel '?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:49 AM

What's wrong with saying 'Unionist Terrorist'?

Isn't that what they are, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 12:42 AM

I really do not see the problem Bunnahabhain has with this motion... that Loyalist terror groups should be pressurised into handing THEIR weapons in.

From his 'better idea' of "ALL TERRORIST weapons off the street NOW" to... they're only "heavily armed criminals" anyway so "none of that matters now". In fact he never mentioned 'Loyalist' and 'terrorist' in the same paragraph, even.

I find that quite singular.
It's like 'Loyalist Terrorist' is a taboo word, or something

As for the reason that we all know of, ... why the the calls for disarmament have mainly been directed at the Republican side: "It is far easier to deal with the (relativly) united Republicans..."

Are you serious, Bunnahabhain?
Or have you lost your marbles?

Taking your logic one stage further though, I would wonder would you then advocate totally ignoring those that are not easy to deal with?

How would you know however, that they are hard to deal with, if you never dealt with them in the first place?

Or are you saying that you don't care one way or the other if all weapons stay exactly where they are?

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 16 May 05 - 07:36 PM

If we only called them 'heavily armed criminals' Bunnahabhain, I would imagine the priority in getting weapons off them would be less again. There are 'heavily armed criminals' in every major city in England.

No, the reason the calls for disarmament have been directed at the IRA, is because they were the only ones who agreed to it as part of the Good Friday Agreement. The Loyalist Paramilitaries were never pressured to do so, since the extreme right-wing of Unionism (DUP and beyond) denounced the Agreement from Day 1, and thereby exempt from the bindings of it. Paisley's oft-spoken ambition in fact, is to bring down the GFA (See above link in previous post).
And far from being fragmented, they are united especially as regards not sharing power with the Nationalists.
'Ulster says NO!', remember?

I think you exaggerate when you say that the IRA are active in Britain; they have been on ceasefire since before the Good Friday Agreement. The Loyalists of course, wreaked havoc on our mainland for all those years, quite notably in Dublin and Monaghan, 31 years ago today.

It does matter Bunnahabhain.
It matters to the Peace Process that Loyalist guns are removed from the equation.

Thank you Gervase, for taking the time to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:15 PM

You're right Bunnahabhain the Loyalists have been killing catholics for years and the Government did nothing about it but we all know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:08 PM

Shall we call them what they are, on both sides? Not terrorists/paramillitaries/freedom fighters etc, but heavily armed criminals?

And yes, the calls for disarmament have mainly been directed at the Republican side, but we all know why.

1. It is far easier to deal with the (relativly) united Republicans, than the fragmented Loyalists.

2. The Loyalists are far less active than the Republicans on the mainland. Kill each other in Northern Ireland, and it's a problem the Goverment really should do something about. Kill people in London/Birmingham/Brighton, and now it's a real, urgent problem.

Of course, none of that matters now, as the Islamic terrorists are out to get us all...

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Gervase
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:18 AM

Done! Letter sent.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 03:29 PM

Was just gonna do that, GUEST. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 14 May 05 - 12:39 PM

I think the point is being made eric, that the call for decommissioning of weapons has been too one-sided so far. I think everyone accepts that all weapons should go; Sinn Féin call for ALL sides to de-militarise constantly.

Yet still, focus is always shifted back towards the IRA, as if it were the only protagonist in the situation.

This particular thread seem to have originated from a post I made in another one: HERE, as part of a discussion surrounding David Trimble's legacy now that his role in six county politics is, to all intents and purposes, over.

To date the IRA have verifiably destroyed a fair number of major arms dumps.
The only Loyalist group to hand in anything, was Billy Wright's/Johnny Adair's LVF; mostly a home-made assortment, and more dangerous, in cases to the person that's actually firing them, than the person they're actually being aimed at.
And there was only 9 of them in any case, with about 300 rounds of ammunition.

What Tiocfaidh has called for, and quite a lot of people accept... judging by the discussions on other relevant threads, is that Loyalist weapons must be called for to be de-commissioned, as well, and makes the point that platitudes are not enough any longer, if everybody agrees that all weapons must go.

How Dave the Gnome has formulated his mail, and I thank him sincerely for his 'leadership' on this one, is that while recognising that all weapons must disappear from politics..., a bit more pressure could be put on the other, Loyalist, factions to to so. Let them share the spotlight, as it were.

Thank you very much incidentally, all who have taken the trouble to mail your MP on this issue.

A levelling of the playing field is needed in 'N.I.' politics, and it should not mean a come down in anyone's stand on the matter, to lobby your local MP to call for more even-handedness while addressing the subject of de-commissioning.

To date, only the IRA and the British Army have pulled back. The Loyalists are still fully armed.
Hence my original call in the earlier thread for more pressure to be put on them.

It is strange however, that when people speak of handing in weapons, the terminology always used is either 'Sinn Féin/IRA' or 'ALL'
The term 'Security Forces/Loyalist Paramilitaries' never gets a look in..., unless those of us who live on the ground here, bring it up.
It should though, given that the term has been proven to be a correct description of the state of affairs in the courts, many times.

It is the main recruiting base for Ian Paisley's Third Force; the 'Police Service of Northern Ireland', if he had his way.
That can never be allowed to happen.

So, Loyalist Paramilitaries have to be called into the equation here.
To not do so is to ignore a very large part of the problem, and prolongs the inevitable socio-ecomomic amalgamation of both North and South of our island.
God almighty, there's only 5 million of us North and South.
Half the population of London, for heaven sakes.
It's not such an earth-shattering concept

It will happen, eventually.

So please...

Mail early.
Mail often.

We want the Loyalist weapons off the streets, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 14 May 05 - 10:44 AM

Gotta agree with that, eric.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 May 05 - 05:25 AM

Bunnahabhain is right, ALL weapons shoud be decommissioned, and seen to be decommissioned, not in secrecy.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 05:11 AM

sorcha no harm in writing to him, just make sure you use small words.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:31 PM

I don't have an MP.....just an idiot President

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Den
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:24 PM

Heric, there have been many oversights where the loyalists are concerned. You will find that the media refers to their various armed groups as paramilitaries whereas the Nationalist armed groups are referred to as terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:14 PM

Tioc

Mail has been sent, as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 13 May 05 - 09:33 PM

I am a monarchist I support your thread, there is no future in Irishmen killing Irishmen for the sake of Ireland. Catholic or Protestant we all bleed and die the same way... 500 years, it is time to say no more violence. Give peace a chance now, the alternative is much too horrible to contemplate.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:41 PM

The saddest thing about that Brucie is that it may need refreshing daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:12 PM

I will refresh it daily.