BS: Two cultures divided by a common language

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:56 AM

Bill D, those old guys may be just "proud". *G* (My father was a horse trainer and on occasion he acquired a 'proud' gelding.)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:24 AM

well, it still didn't compute, I looked it up!

TAKE THE PISS

[Q] From Stephen Balkam: "Could you throw some light on to the origin of taking the piss? My (English) wife seemed to think it meant actually being made to drink someone else's urine."

[A] Nothing literal about this one, you will be pleased to hear. It's usually said that the phrase derives from an older one, piss-proud, which refers to having an erection when waking up in the morning, which is usually attributed to a full bladder (proud here being an obvious pun on its senses of something raised or projecting and of something in which one may take satisfaction).

It's first recorded, as so many such indecorous expressions are, in Francis Grose's A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue; in the second edition of 1788 he wrote: "Piss-proud, having a false erection. That old fellow thought he had an erection, but his — was only piss-proud; said of any old fellow who marries a young wife".

This developed into a figurative sense of somebody who had an exaggerated idea of his own importance. So to take the piss is to deflate somebody, to disabuse them of their mistaken belief that they are special. It's not recorded before the beginning of the twentieth century."

--------------------------------------------------------------

"taking the piss n. This is the most common term we have in British English to describe making fun of someone, e.g. "Andy fell down the stairs on the way into the pub last night, and everyone spent the entire night taking the piss out of him". Contrary to what one might assume, it doesn't involve a complex system of tubes or a bicycle pump."


So, I see that it is relatively late arriving, as these expressions go, and it seems to me a bit of a strech to make it fit what it is supposed to convey. It is not an expression I would USE, even if I lived where it was common.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:01 AM

Keep in mind that mangling the ENGLISH language ain't our doing. The people who came here to settle the new country were ENGLISH, speaking the ENGLISH language. Eventually THEY - those ENGLISHmen and ENGLISHwomen - decided to use it-and pronounce it- differently.

A few years ago as I was giving a museum tour to a young Swiss couple, the young woman said, I don't want to be rude but why do Americans move so much? In my country, we live on the same land that my great, great grandparents lived on.

I suddenly had an inspiration. I said, Because we are the offspring of you people who didn't stay home.

For the first time, she said, she understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:19 AM

THE THE THE THE

THE word feels good so use it!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:00 AM

Uh-huh, like, fer sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:54 AM

No Bainbo, just trying to annoy our colonial cousins.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:16 AM

Some words seem to be deliberately designed to mislead. 'Presently', according to context, can be used to mean 'now, this very minute' or'not now, but in a little while'. When I was a small child, if I asked my mother to buy me an ice cream she usually said 'presently'. I learnt by bitter experience that it didn't mean 'now' and it didn't mean 'soon'. There was absolutely no hope in 'presently'.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:10 AM

On another thread, I used the word 'touched', as in 'touched in the head'. What side of the pond is this from?

Any others? Like frothy, gone, long gone, cracked, on the pipe...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:56 AM

Ebbie... you have earned an "A". I would have given you an "A+", but, because you have questioned the authority of the professor, points have been deducted for insolence. Don't feel this grading is harsh. I was "F"'d in a Statistical Theory course for pissing off the prof with my humour, ah, er, rather, irreverence. Irreverence sounds much better when you "F" a student. Especially when THE student scores THE highest in THE class on THE final exam. THAT REALLY sucked EH.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:33 AM

Definite article.

Or were you just taking the piss? *grin*
(Being facetious, taking the Mickey, pulling our legs)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:15 AM

The differences are all the fault of we English, it is our fault because it is OUR language and we made a bollocks of teaching it to you Americans, or perhaps you were incapable of understanding.

THE is the definate article, use it as such.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:15 AM

As to the article "the", I've been bemused for a long time about how UKers will refer to "going to hospital" or "to university", without the use of the word "the". I used to find this strange.

NO!NO!NO!
"In hospital" and "In THE hospital" mean two completely different things.

"In Hospital" implies "is a patient", just as "at university" implies "is a student"
"In THE hospital" or "in THE university" merely describes the persons location, NOT his/ her activity.

eg "My mum is in THE hospital visiting my Gran"
or "Uncle Joe is in THE hospital. He has to carry out an emergency operation on a baby"
or Dad is at THE university today, he is re-tiling a roof there.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Splott Man
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:02 AM

In the US "momentarily" means "soon"
In the UK it means "for a brief period"

In this part of Wales, "after" means "later" as in "I'll do it after"
"Now" means "in a minute or two" as in "I'll do it now"
I've even heard "I'll do it now in a minute"

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:42 AM

Scottish catters will know what a western Pennsylvania native means when she says redd up. But you may be a bit confused when we call someone a neb. In this part of the U.S. it's an inquisitive person.
Scots took Fort Duquesne away from the French and were immediately attracted to the region's attrocious weather and sloping terrain.
Jean Redpath told the story of telling a hotel clerk to knock her up the next morning.

Oh, in some parts of the U.S. if you order tea, you'll get it iced, unless you specifically ask for hot. Mother had quite a surprise with her breakfast at a South Carolina hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:00 AM

There's a whole world of fantastic food names that could fill a few volumes. For starters:

One one side of the Altlantic:

bubble and squeak
bangers and mash
spotted dick

And on the other side:

apple brown Betty/apple pan dowdy
blueberry buckle/blueberry grunt
pigs in blankets

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:46 PM

well...that reminds me to finally ask: I usually 'get' most references, even when I don't use them, but I have seen "taking the piss" used here many, many times, but even in context I have never been sure exactly how to translate it. (In the US, we may not use it because it is so close to "taking a piss" ...but maybe we simply have another expression already...

Could someone elucidate? And what mught be the origins of such a non-obvious expression?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:06 PM

In English English we have certain words which never seem to be used in the US, plus the accenting of the particular words can make it polite or impolite e.g. bollocks (testicles for the US catters)

'Bollocks' said mildy to oneself, one has made a slight faux pas
'Bollocks' said heavily to oneself, one has made a slightly larger foxes pass
'Bolllllocks', lengthened delivery to oneself, it has happened again
'Bollocks' short delivery, sir you are in error
'BOLLOCKS' shouted, sir I disagree with you strongly
'Bollocks' muttered under the breath, my dear wife I cannot agree but nor can I say so loudly
'Boll -pause-OCKS!' you are speaking rubbish

We also have lots of other Anglo-Saxon words which never seem to have taken root in the US.

'Taking the piss'
'W****r' Clue, rhymes with 'oil tanker' (seagull rhyming slang)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Alba
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:29 PM

In Scotland I used to write out the 'Cheques' for my monthly bills.
I had a nice 'Check' skirt I wore a lot but I kept my 'Plaid' skirt for special occasions.
Here in the US I write out the 'Checks' to pay my monthly Bills,
and I have a 'plaid' upholstered Sofa that looks remarkably similar to the 'check' skirt I used to wear a lot (that was reason I picked the fabric)
I still however keep my 'Plaid' skirt for special occassions..
Cheques..I never use them here..***BG***
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Bunnahabhain, via back door
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:20 PM

Embarque, and Disenbarque, surely?

Where does the difference between a spoken dialect (as per bev and gerry, and GUEST, padget, above), and a written one become important?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:26 PM

"Rather, English is a sort of umbrella word, covering a great body of related dialects, each of which is "correct" and "grammatical" in its own fashion, in its own milieu. There are dialects within this "English" grouping (and "American" subgrouping) which have academic favor, but they are still dialects, and only a part of the vast mosaic of speech we call "English". Dave O

Ah, I get it, Dave. Kind of like when an instrument is in tune with itself but it can't readily play with anyone else?


Where does it end, gnu? "Next exercise was to (delete 'the' use of (delete 'the') word "that", for example, "I find ( delete 'the' ) sentence written without (delete 'the') use of ( delete 'the' ) word "the" is much more to (delete 'the' ) point."

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:11 PM

What a pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:07 PM

Nowdays you don' embarque or debarque, you onplane and deplane. I have also heard deplaning.

I was once unlucky enough to work in a British company taken over by General Electric. It took me some time to get over all the three and four letter memonics being used. I jokingly asked if there was a GE-English dictionary, sure enough there was.

GE inmates call their logo 'The meatball' a small circle with an old styalised fan blade with the copper plate GE script across it. Our US brethren in the Co. would talk about exchanging meatballs when giving one another a business card.

We pointed out that in the UK a meatball was a faggot; therefore we should be exchanging faggots. A look of horror passed across many a face. In France a meatball is a boulez, 'faire un boulez' in French also means a cock up.

In the end we just refered to it as the cats bum 'cos that was that it really looked like to our wee twisted English minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bainbo
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:39 PM

gnu - part of my job, in the UK, involves text editing. Whenever any of our writers uses the try word, they write "try and do it." So that's the form in common usage.

I always have to amend it to "try to do it" because that's the correct usage. But the other form is so widespread that it can't be long before "try and" becomes correct.

That's the way language evolves, I suppose, although there's usually a loss of nuance on the way, such as "disinterested", which is now used to mean "uninterested". In this case, though, I can't see any such loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:13 PM

We visited a textile museum somewhere in the midlands and Jerry had a conversation with a lady who was demonstrating a loom.

To us, the conversation sounded like this:

Jerry: That's a dobby loom, isn't it?
Woman: No, it's a dobby loom.

We later figured out that, to her, the conversation must have sounded like this:

Jerry: That's a Derby loom, isn't it?
Woman: No, it's a dobby loom.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: jaze
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:46 PM

There's THE Netherlands

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:28 PM

Ron: Did you mean "What gnu??????" or "What, gnu??????"?

Just teasin... I find that the sentence written without the use of the word "the" is much more to the point.

Of course, one cannot delete use of "the" completely. His objective was to make us think about each clause and the whole composition by focusing on the most common word in our language.

Next exercise was to delete the use of the word "that", for example, "I find the sentence written without the use of the word "the" is much more to the point." An engineering professor he was.

BTW, did anyone answer my question about "try and do" or did I just miss the answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sapper82
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:46 PM

I wonder how Guest would feel about eating faggots?
Usually served with Mashed tatties, thick gravy and tunrips.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: robomatic
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:29 PM

Ebbie that was very interesting about 'aluminum'. I guess we Yanks just try to pronounce it whichever way bugs the Brits more. I kinda hoped that's why 'W' says "nuke-you-ler" but I 'spect that's just his style in public.

I remember some ancient variety TV show doing as a skit a Cockney tourist in New York City trying to talk to a Brooklyn cabbie.

There's also a big split between the US use of thousand, million, billion, and trillion. Europeans do some weird kind of split:

US               Euro
million          million
billion          1000 million or 'milliard'
trillion         billion

Doctor Math explains it here.

Apparently it's another case of us Yanks not larnin' 'nuff o that there latin language.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:26 PM

Well goodness, Yorkshire has t'tahn (to the town) and Lancastrians
th'tahn (to the town) no doubt the Lancs will pick me up on this, which is basically dropping the 'the'.

Dialects can get very confusing such as 'tintintin'

which means 'it isn't in the tin' ~ i've probably started something again lol

Ray Padgett (tongue in cheek)!!

try 'werrtagoin' 'am goinoam'

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:10 PM

To a Yank, when someone is "redundant" it's an insult that has nothing to do with being unemployed.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:36 PM

What gnu??????

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:14 PM

As to the article "the", I've been bemused for a long time about how UKers will refer to "going to hospital" or "to university", without the use of the word "the". I used to find this strange.

And then I realized that we United Statesers do the same thing. If I get caught for a crime, I "go to jail (gaol)", not "to the jail". And other examples.

It all comes down to the fact that language is as language does. It's not required to be logical.

I have an excellent book around here (whose name and author, I blush to admit, I can't think of) which says, in essence, that there are no languages; there are only dialects. There is no tight, definable, authoritative body of speech which is English. Rather, English is a sort of umbrella word, covering a great body of related dialects, each of which is "correct" and "grammatical" in its own fashion, in its own milieu. There are dialects within this "English" grouping (and "American" subgrouping) which have academic favor, but they are still dialects, and only a part of the vast mosaic of speech we call "English".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:07 PM

In America, during your week or two off work, when you may or may not take a trip, you are on "vacation" (not on "holiday").

A "holiday" here is a single day when something is celebrated and most people enjoy a day off work; e.g., Christmas, Independence Day, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:44 PM

There are two animals whose names are spelled the same on both sides of the pond but pronounced differently.

Jaguar and hereford.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Cool Beans
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:37 PM

These chemheads can't even spell "standardiZed" and they're telling us how to spell aluminuminum. The noive!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:30 PM

"The official change in the US to the –um spelling happened quite late: the American Chemical Society only adopted it in 1925. The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) officially standardised on aluminium in 1990, though this has done nothing, of course, to change the way people in the US spell it for day to day purposes."


The Official Word

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:21 PM

Oh, you were talking about 'merkin". As in the other case, I'll just stifle myself again for now. Time to fuel the machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:14 PM

I won a bit with an Aussie about how we 'yanks' spell 'aluminum'. Ebbie, they can't change how they spell it officially. 'Ain't' no
'official' with that kind of power.

Europeans drive me crazy with their use of commas where we use points and points where we use commas. F'r'instance, 1,000,000.00 in US is: 1.000.000,00 in Euroland.

And try telling an American to 'keep your pecker up!' You'll get either punched out or a diatribe on how well the viagra works!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:10 PM

"Feminine"

Dave Oesterriech

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:08 PM

Gnu, to put it delicately, it is a wig for the feminent pudenda!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:04 PM

Mmmmmfffff!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:53 PM

gnu, it has a female aspect to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:42 PM

"What is wrong with the word "the". Short and to the point. I'm assuming that the word "the"..."

"What is wrong with "the". Short and concise. I'm assuming "the"..."

See?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:16 PM

I'm not sure if I would ever want to be "gobsmacked".   I'm not even sure of the spelling.

What is wrong with the word "the". Short and to the point. I'm assuming that the word "the" is not used when it refers to a destination, which is why countries, states and cities usually do not receive "the" in front of the name. The exceptions are "The" Bronx and "The" Vatican.

I think we get too hung up on language and being "proper".   Language evolves. Ain't it the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:14 PM

What is a "merkin", sixtieschick? I can't find it in mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:50 PM

If one student asked another to borrow his rubber in the USA they'd get kicked out of class. BTW, the bloke, aka person, who is referring to us as 'merkins ought to look up the meaning of the word, "merkin." Unless that's what you mean to call us, that is. In that case, you might get kicked out of the bar, I mean pub.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:33 PM

At The University of New Brunswick (points deducted for leaving out "The"), one of my engineering professors would not allow use of "the" in our reports or in our presentations. This practise was a bit difficult to get used to. However, continued practice promoted far better prose and speech.

I have a question for you Brits. I am the only person I know, other than my parents, who says, "I will try to do whatever.", instead of the commonly accepted, "I will try and do whatever." Is this bastardization of grammar acceptable where English is English?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:53 PM

Sapper82 said, in part:

'Merkins it seems get "Burglarised"!!

You're mistaken, Sapper82. 'Merkins get burglarized!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: jonm
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:41 PM

Ozzy Osbourne tells the story of going out very late at night in LA and finding the only bar open, full of strangely-dressed male customers, lots of leather and moustaches.

"I need a beer and twenty fags" was probably not the best thing to say.....

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:38 PM

I just read that the spelling in the US was officially changed to aluminium in 1990. I didn't know that.   But did you realize that 'aluminum' is the earlier spelling of the two forms?

Interesting History of Alumin(i)um