BS: Who's next? - today's political picture

Subject: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:07 PM

Recently George Bush said to reporters that people are deported by American personelle with the guarantee of being tortured.

Its not Guantanemo where Korans are merely flushed.

This is where the serious torure is done:
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushtortures.jpg

This place gives a whole new meaning to being hard boiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:12 PM

Donuel is just a big whiner here who really has a problem with America and just hates George Bush. The extreme hate of George Bush by some should qualify as a hate crime as much less examples of hate are singled out as such.

More and more it is being proven that individuals such as this are maladjusted and cannot make it in society so instead they rip it to shreds.

Now no one is in favor of "torure" as donuel calls it, but anyone who finds this type of humor funny is really his own biggest problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:20 PM

People in favor of torure:

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/camptorture.jpg




PS
As MG attacks sanity, manhood, patriotism etc. he will soon learn that some people will not be a willing victim of personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:21 PM

For once, I agree with Marvin. This is just not funny, Don. And I'd like to have you clarify your statement: "Recently George Bush said to reporters that people are deported by American personelle (personnel. Eb) with the guarantee of being tortured."

Which part of that sentence is a quote?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:27 PM

Who said torure is funny. My political pictures go beyond cartoons.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:39 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushtorture1.jpg

PS
The quote is accurate and true.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:46 PM

repaired link

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushtorture.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:02 PM

Two things, Don: 1) I realize that this is not a "funny" picture. My opinion is that it goes farther than warranted. The process of resisting evil carries with it the necessity of NOT being as evil. IMO

2) Are you telling us that George W. Bush literally said: "People are deported by American personnel with the guarantee of being tortured"?

I'd like to see a link to that quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:41 PM

Donuel, even one of my greatest critcs is siding with me on this one. YOU say it's funny, that's who.

Attacking you is not attacking sanity, patriotism, or probably even manhood in your case because you are neither.

You are just a moron with a steel hard-on for George Bush and middle of the road America.

That's all you are. Your thread and ideology complety suck.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:54 PM

Marvin, see? That's where you and I part company.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:03 PM

I haven't had a chance yet to part company with Joan Rivers...but I feel that the opportunity is lurking just around the corner, and I can hardly wait. :-) Then there's Paris Hilton.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:06 PM

To some it's too close for comfort. To others it's sharp thought provoking imagery. I liked it Donuel. Keep them coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:18 PM

we know for a fact that Islam Karimov (Uzbekistan president for life) and Americas ally in the war on terror, received 500$ million in aid
after allowing the US to use Uzbek airbases. Ironic that Washington would call Saddam Hussein an evil tyrant, and yet this guy is a friend and ally. When people demonstrated 2 weeks ago against his rule, govt. troops shot and killed around 500 people (many of whom were shot in the head - as soldiers went around finishing them off.)

as far as no one being in favor of 'torture' its also a fact that
Bush's govt pushed aside the geneva convention, and a memo prepared on the order of his White House council now attorney General, suggested limiting the definition of torture to acts that bring on 'organ failure'. And his secretary of defence 'personally authorized' interrogation techniques such as the use of dogs and forced nudity expressly designed to outrage the religious customs of detainees.
Its only a short step to sexual humiliation, fake menstrual blood and desecration of the Koran, all of which have been reported prior to Newsweeks article. And of course no one in any position of authority has been held accountable.

We also know that the Bush Administration has been using other countries to outsource torture, Uzbekistan, Egypt and Syria for example.
It might not be news in the US but a couple years ago a Canadian citizen Maher Arar, was detained when changing planes in the US (even though he was traveling to Canada) and sent to Syria where he was jailed and tortured for two years before being released.
to call the WHite hOuse policy of attacking the media, when reporting such stories 'hypocritical or cynical' is inadequate, more like 'nauseating'.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:24 PM

Hey, you just don't get more anti-bush government than I but fair is fair. Donuel said: "Recently George Bush said to reporters that people are deported by American personelle (personnel. Eb) with the guarantee of being tortured."

and I asked:
"Which part of that sentence is a quote? "

I'm still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:29 PM

None of it is. This guy donuel just makes this stuff up and posts it here to get his rocks off.

All he does is make George bush his scapegoat for his own shortcomings in American society.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:31 PM

Your editorializing gets real old, Marvin.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:44 PM

Too fucking bad.

You can keep your "humble opinions"

I'll just be bluntly honest and say what's on my mind.

If it's too politically incorrect for you, again, too fucking bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:58 PM

Donuel, I generally both like your work and pretty much agree with your positions. However, in this case you put inflammatory words in George's mouth, and you've been called on to substantiate it. You haven't said a mumblin' word. That attacks your credibility even as to other postings. If you made a misstep or a mistake or misquote (intentionally or unintentionally), admit it, and move on.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:58 PM

Martin - How about this for politically incorrect ? Any comment ?

Subject: RE: BS: High Court Rules In Terry Schiavo Case
From: Martin Gibson
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

I hope all of you who do not agree that her parents have no say get to watch your child die before your eyes, also.

Deal with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:39 PM

Donuel has a valid point, I have been waiting to see who would be the first to post on the shame of Americas new' "Saddam".

Apparently This monster Karimov likes to boil his victims alive and the American govt look the other way as they have a massive base in Uzbekestan, and they believe Karimov to be a strong man who can keep down the "Islamists"
Does that seem familiar to anyone?
Does it make anyone think that all the rhetoric about spreading democracy is a sham?....I wonder......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:58 PM

Guest, yes here's my comment:

In case you haven't noticed, I could give a crap about being politically correct here.

If you are offended by bluntly truthful statements, that's your problem.

I stand by what I said. Nice life you have BTW, poking through old threads to find things that people said. Like you were a shithead lawyer doing a despostion.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:03 PM

There has got to be a better way of getting one's rocks off than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:04 PM

And you celibrate Passover ?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Alba
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:23 PM

Martin....what has PC got to do with your comments on the other Thread?

"I stand by what I said"

Do you truly wish that on my Son and myself and the countless other Parents that post here that disagree with your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:43 PM

Interesting how this is now about terry shiavano again.


I don't wish the horror of a parent watching their child die on anyone. that's the point. My heart went out to her parents who clung to life. Breathing, heartbeat, HOPE, etc.

Alba, you should never hopefully be in that position of someone else with possible less than disirous motive making that decision for any of your kids.

I stand by what I said.

And Guest, what does Passover got to do with anything except to just prove another anti-semetic Mudcat attitude that idiots like you have now made this place famous for?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:56 PM

Martin - You're the anti-semetic. You're the one that doesn't take the teachings of your own religion to heart. Read it in your own words as follows :

"I don't wish the horror of a parent watching their child die on anyone"

"I hope all of you who do not agree that her parents have no say get to watch your child die before your eyes, also"

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: jpk
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:12 PM

ya know,sometimes torture works,i'll start gripping, when we start hacking ther damn heads off.till then,o'well

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: robomatic
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:30 PM

Hakman we've already established that you do not abstain from personal attacks your own self. You also have a perceived problem in that you interweave fantasy with reality in your many thread headers in this forum. That's okay, just don't go all self righteous when it gets pointed out.

And it WILL get pointed out. Lots of sharp folk in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 05 - 10:50 PM

Guest, you are truly a douche bag. PM me with your thoughts if you have any balls, which you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:02 PM

Why should I want to talk to someone as anti-semitic as you ? I really don't care for bigots like yourself. And please stop thinking about my balls. You would be better off spending time reading the Torah and trying to live up to the ideals you'll find there. Have you picked it up latly Martin ??

PS - CF Martin and Orville Gibson just called. They want their names back. You've abused them long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:04 AM

here is the clearest accusation I found after a moderate search thru some pages using "Bush torture deported" as my search terms.

There are a LOT of comments out there about sanctioning torture, justifying torture...etc...but obviously, the only direct quote from GW are about officially condemning torture.

Donuel may or may not have overdone the graphic (he certainly did not base it on any clear & unambiguous quote), but there is much to answer for in the current administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:23 AM

The CIA program of outsourcing torture is called rendition and the tortured are called rendered when flown to a foreign country and tortured. For over a year the administration claimed that they did not sanction US torture, valuable information has been obtained from foreign tortured detainees.

A little over 2 weeks ago on radio I first heard George W Bush respond to a question about rendition and then witnessed his response on TV:
"they (the terrorists) will be flown to a foreign country with the guarantee of torture". GWB

Facts are facts but the only thing alarming was the straight up confession by the President of US sponsored torture without the flowery embelishment of the Orwellian code words like rendition.

If you want to hear him say it I suggest you search NPR.com
When this policy of rendition has been reported by the Washington Post there has been no outcry.

Outlines of the actual Uzbekistan torture techniques include boiling people to death.
Last week Uzbekistan had their own Tianamon Square type event where hundreds of demonstrators were killed. Although some were still alive they were buried in mass graves in only 3 hours with is a new speed record.

If you want to compare these atrocities with Darfour they may seem minor with regards to sheer numbers. Still if you support Bush you support a torture President. In for a penny, in for a pound... or you might want to draw a line at abject torture. Simply denying what he does and says is not good enough, nor is calling people who point to what is happening; insane, liars, unmanly, unpatriotic and criminal good enough any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:42 AM

In fact the Bush administration has been very involved in torture, except they have come up with another name fir it. They call it "rendering", where by they "render" someone to another country where tortute is an accepted practice...

And BTW, Amnesty International just released a report that was quite critical of the treatment of the people the Bush administration is holding in Guantanemo Bay and if you'll go to washingtonpost.com you'll find an artickle describing where the Koran was indeed disrespected even though the Bush administration is trying to downplay it... I find it interesting that they all but nuked Newsweek last week for printing a story that contained a paragraph about the Koean being disrespected and here a week later they are sayin' "Well, yeah, we mighta done a little of that but we was jus' funnin'"

I guess they will soon resort to defending their lies with the Clinton defense stategy of "depends what is... is?"

(No, Bobert. They couldn't care less about defending their lies. They just make up bigger and better ones to cover the last batch. Remember WMD's?)

Nevermind....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Alba
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:16 AM

yes Bobert, Amnesty International has some very disturbing information.
I was looking into this Thread last night and found an article dated March 6th 2005: Rendition
I will, due to the gravity of the subject, look into the Archives of NPR today when I have time.
Word of Mouth on this particluar issue isn't enough for me.
I am sure you understand that Donuel.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:26 AM

Donuel. NPR has extensive archives and without a specific date it is difficult to find "a comment".
Can you remember what the Programme was and/or the date it was aired?
Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:26 AM

Words from the mouth of GWB never cease to dismay.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:40 AM

Agreed, but truly in this case it would be prudent to have those words "straight from the Horses Mouth" so to speak!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:01 AM

Or straight from your asshole, Guest if you are the same one from before.

Anti-Semetic? Right. A practicing Jew as myself. You don't know your ass from a crater.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:17 AM

In his usual brilliant manner dubya may well have said something of the sort. The man is incapable of making a clear statement.

In a fairly cursory search, I went from a blog (where anyone can say anything as a matter of opinion) to The Weekly Standard where I found this:

"Question: Mr. President, under the law, how would you justify the practice of renditioning, where U.S. agents . . . [send] terror suspects abroad, taking them to a third country for interrogation? . . .

"Answer: . . . We operate within the law and we send people to countries where they say they're not going to torture the people. But let me say something: The United States government has an obligation to protect the American people. It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us. . . . We still [are] at war.

"SO SPOKE PRESIDENT Bush at a press conference on April 28, 2005. There is, however, a contradiction in the president's stated objective to use torture-free rendition as an effective counterterrorist weapon, to wit: Some of the countries to which prisoners have been rendered do use torture. Morally, operationally, and politically, then, the United States has got itself into a muddle through its embrace of rendition--that is, the transfer of American-held terrorists and terrorist suspects into the hands of foreign security and intelligence services."


The Article

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:38 AM

There's no question that your statements are blunt, Martin. Blunt is what you do best. But truthful? No. They are distorted, spiteful, and full of anger, which is almost the opposite of truth. As for practicing, I think that's a good thing. You need a lot of it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:29 PM

What Amos said.

Martin is the exact opposite of what ever Jewish person I've ever met is like. He doesn't follow any of the ideals that can be found in the Torah - so the only way to accurately describe him is as an anti-semite. You have to do more than read the Torah - you have to live it.

I read some books by John Grisham. That doesn't make me a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Matt_R
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:33 PM

This thread needs a spell check.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST,Alba
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:38 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 08.26 am and 08:40 AM was me actually the Mudcat was down and neglected to put anything in the 'From' box.

I find nothing in my questions directed to Donuel that express Anti- Semitic views?

Judith

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST,Alba
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:44 PM

...and a how to compose a sentence 'check' too Matt it would seem, on part part anyway.. lol
What I meant to say was..
"Date: 27 May 05 - 08.26 am and 08:40 AM was me actually. The Mudcat was down and I neglected to put anything in the 'From' box.

Judith

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Alba
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:10 PM

ROFL and I still can't get it right....ah bugger it..:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: DougR
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:16 PM

Donuel: Ebbie posed a reasonable question. Your reply is less than forthright. What you "heard" Bush say isn't quite the same as directing her to a legitimate source.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:20 PM

Id actually like to know from all the Bush supporters, what would it take to change their minds in their blind support of this administration.

do they deny or disbelieve policies of rendition (sending terror suspects to be tortured in third countries) exist?

do they deny that Gonzales as White HOuse counsel prior to being appointed AG, actually issued a report stating that torture should be defined only when the act brings on 'organ failure?'
and that Geneva Convention should be brushed aside,

do they deny that Rumsfeld personally authorized 'torture lite' interrogation techniques which included the use of dogs, sexual humiliation etc.. (of course the lowest ranking soldiers always take the fall, with no one in any position of authority being charged with anything)

right now in Canada, Maher Arar (who, while changing flights, in the US was shipped to Syria where he was jailed and tortured for 2 years)
there is a public enquiry going on and he is also suing Rumsfeld and Ashcroft, so if it hasnt become news in the US it will.

they either deny it or they feel it is justified.

its hypocritical to talk about the democratic rights of the Iraqi people, all the while ignoring the democratic rights of the Uzbeks, where President for Life Islam Karimov (whose troops shot at demonstrators and killed 500 people two weeks ago) is Americas friend and ally and (beneficiary of 500$ Millions in aid since he provided air bases).

simple straightforward question, lets see if they can answer, without resorting to ad hominem attacks - in which case they are out of their depth and not worthy of further discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:31 PM

Thank you, Donuel, for amplifying somewhat your source for the GWB almost-quote. I've been unable so far, on the web, to find anything to that effect, but that proves nothing of itself.

The statement as you report it is surely a "statement against interest", as the lawyers say, but then GWB, as we all know, doesn't have the greatest intellectual control over his mouth and he just might have slipped and said the truth. I can't believe that he'd have intended to say something so self-damaging.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:38 PM

Guest, I don't have to justify to you jackshit. Torah is open to interpretation. I would say that you know nothing about it. Calling a practicing Jew an anti-semite shows your Nazi heritage. It's expected of your type here.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's next? - today's political picture
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 03:11 PM

I'm a practicing Jew too Martin. That's IF you are Jewish. And a lot of what you've said makes me doubt that you are. Did you get your brown shirt back from the cleaners yet ?