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BS: And the prisons shall be empty...

saulgoldie 02 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM
gnu 02 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM
Bunnahabhain 02 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 02:41 PM
just john 02 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM
frogprince 02 Jun 05 - 02:58 PM
Dave'sWife 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 03:33 PM
mg 02 Jun 05 - 03:50 PM
Dave'sWife 02 Jun 05 - 03:55 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 03:56 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM
freda underhill 02 Jun 05 - 07:07 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 07:13 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM
jaze 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM
frogprince 02 Jun 05 - 08:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 05 - 08:10 PM
akenaton 02 Jun 05 - 08:21 PM
Sorcha 02 Jun 05 - 08:25 PM
akenaton 02 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 08:54 PM
John O'L 02 Jun 05 - 09:19 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 09:26 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 09:59 PM
dianavan 02 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 10:15 PM
Once Famous 02 Jun 05 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 05 - 10:39 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 02 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM
Dave'sWife 03 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 02:29 AM
Barry Finn 03 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM
Bobert 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM
saulgoldie 03 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM
frogprince 03 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM
jacqui.c 03 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 01:22 PM
Dave'sWife 03 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM
Don Firth 03 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 05 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Sleepless Dad 03 Jun 05 - 03:13 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM
Bunnahabhain 03 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 05 - 04:04 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 04:17 PM
akenaton 03 Jun 05 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Sleepless Dad 03 Jun 05 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,sleepless Dad 03 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Sleepless Dad 03 Jun 05 - 05:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Jun 05 - 06:05 PM
jacqui.c 03 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Jun 05 - 07:57 PM
robomatic 03 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM
robomatic 03 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 05 - 10:50 PM
Once Famous 03 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 05 - 11:13 PM
alanabit 04 Jun 05 - 03:49 AM
dianavan 04 Jun 05 - 04:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Jun 05 - 06:25 AM
GUEST 04 Jun 05 - 07:50 AM
Bobert 04 Jun 05 - 08:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Jun 05 - 09:25 AM
Donuel 04 Jun 05 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner) 04 Jun 05 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,Bobert 04 Jun 05 - 08:48 PM
Dave'sWife 04 Jun 05 - 09:16 PM
GUEST 04 Jun 05 - 09:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 05 - 06:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Jun 05 - 07:02 AM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Bobert 05 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM
Bunnahabhain 05 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM
Once Famous 05 Jun 05 - 01:35 PM
dianavan 05 Jun 05 - 02:07 PM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM
dianavan 05 Jun 05 - 02:52 PM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 03:02 PM
dianavan 05 Jun 05 - 03:29 PM
GUEST 05 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 05 - 06:25 PM
Leadfingers 05 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM
Leadfingers 05 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM
Leadfingers 05 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Jun 05 - 01:43 AM
Bobert 06 Jun 05 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 06 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM
saulgoldie 15 Jun 05 - 08:22 AM
saulgoldie 17 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM
Amos 17 Apr 07 - 08:29 PM
saulgoldie 17 Apr 07 - 09:49 PM
Donuel 18 Apr 07 - 01:10 PM
saulgoldie 24 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM
Ebbie 25 Mar 11 - 12:58 AM
Dorothy Parshall 25 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

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Subject: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:40 PM

...when all children are born wanted into a society that truly values life, raised with (genuine!) love, properly fed, medically (and mentally!) cared for, and educated. Then shall we close the prisons and dance and sing in the streets. And no vitriol, no matter HOW personal and irrational shall alter this truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM

There are a few people, who for no apparent reasons in their upbringing or present circumstances, commit real crimes. We will never be able to close every prision, but 99% of them is possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:41 PM

Avarice, jealousy, revenge, will keep enough of them open for many years after we achieve your Utopia. The human condition dictates it not social standing.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: just john
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:47 PM

Then shall we close the prisons and dance and sing in the streets.


Y'know, obstructing traffic is ILLEGAL. Get in the squad car. Mind your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 02:58 PM

Yes, Dave, it would take years before the prisons could be closed down; but the time WOULD COME when the bottom would fall out of our
current rates of crime and imprisonment. I assume that Saul realizes
that his "when" is really a very wishful "if". But the effort to reach as far as we can toward that ideal is immenently worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM

is this a qote from somewhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM

I have done my best to work towards that ideal frogprince :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:10 PM

Mrs I think it is a biblical quote... Deuteronomy? afraid my memory is deserting me..

Yours, Aye. Dave (the other Dave not yours Mrs)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:33 PM

This would be oh so nice if it was true.

Unfortunately human nature will always contain jealousy, hate, want, need, greed, and everything else.

So you can light up another dooby and enjoy the pipe dream because it's not going to happen until humanity evolves into something else.

Read Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End."


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: mg
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:50 PM

I think we could empty a lot more right now with creative technology for non-violent, non-predatory criminals...frequent drug and alcohol tests, a limited time of day they could be out and about, to limited number of places, mandatory education/public work/coaching...could be done...worked for martha stewart.. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:55 PM

I don't think it's from the Bible. I've checked 4 different translations for the words "prison' "Prisons' and 'Jail' and nothing even close.

During Pr-Roman times, prisons as we know them did not exists and it imprisonment was only done whilst awaiting trial. My Bible concordance makes note of this by pointing out the odd places where various old testament figures were held such as a Cistern (Joseph) a well (Jeremiah) and so on. So if it is biblical, it would be more likely to be from the Greek Scriptures.. maybe Acts?

Where IS Joe Offer whn you need him.. I bet he'd know.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:56 PM

Yeah, sure. It could work for other multi-millionaires, also. bid deal.

How about your ghetto heroin pushers? You want them running around also?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

But who else would make our license plates and crush all those rocks and pick up trash on the roads for fifteen cents per hour?


I'm sending a letter to the White House to make sure that doesn't happen. I'm sure they'll listen to little old me! ;-)


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM

Might be the Apocrypha, but I am at a loss to remember it. The Old Testament probably? Sorry, I cannot remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM

I highly recommend a book called The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout. It seems that about one in twenty-five of the population (social and economic status aside) is a sociopath, and from the ranks of these comes a significant part (much higher than their numbers would indicate) of our criminal population. This status is highly correlated with genetic factors, though not one to one.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:54 PM

Well, yeah, this would probably go a long ways toward closin' down the prisons... And getting there are going to involve a different consciousness... The current culture is way to nilhistic and greedy... not to mention ignorant... I can somewhat forgive the ignorant part becuase way too many folks are way too busy to get beyond the propaganda that they are force feed on a daily basis by greedier folks then themselves...

I'd just like to also agree that we could cut the current incarceration in half if we were to look at all the folks who are servin' time for victimless crimes, such as drug addicts... But this is going to take another consciousness...

But lastly, I have mentioned this idea in the past but I'd love to see a public private partnership between business and prisons and have employed inmates who are are part of a business so that when he or she is released will have a job and a leg up on not becoming another recivitist stat....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:07 PM

A few years ago i went to Manus Island, a few degrees from the equator. This island is populated by indigenous people of different tribes who live in the Dranou, Yi ringou, Sohoniliu and Kopou villages, and who speak the Lele and Nali languages.

Manus Island has no jail, the people live in peace and I felt completely safe while i was there.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:13 PM

Agreed, saulgoldie. Although society is never perfect, the most irresponsible and unthinking reason to put up with its many imperfections is just to say, "Well, that's human nature, and it will never change.

Most social problems are driven by:

inequality

injustice

poverty

broken homes

divisive politics and religions

pragmatism (survival of the "fittest")

and worship of money to the exclusion of other much more vital aspects of reality, such as equality, love, and responsibility to one's fellow living beings.

All anyone needs is enough money, but to a ruthless social competitor no amount is ever enough. And from that stem most of the problems. Thus, "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil", as it says in the Bible. (I'd qualify that, and say it is the root of most evil, but not all. Egocentrism is also the root of much evil.)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM

Yes, if we just genetically test everyone and shoot all those that fail, we will have a purer society!

I know we tried it before, but we were working on facial shapes and racial backgrounds, but now we got it right!

Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Seig Heil!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: jaze
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

One can hope, can't they, Martin? And work to help make it happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

Huh? What was that a response to?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM

All Heil Martin!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:08 PM

There will always be those who turn out badly, dangerously, wrong, for reasons no social policies or parenting classes will cure; but if we can ever approach the ideal in Saul's opening post, the change will be so marked that it will damn near be "the end of civilization as we know it".


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:10 PM

Hi Bobert,

I usually can relate to your opinions on most subjects, but this time.............No!

Where do most of your drug addicts get the money to finance their habits?

Victimless crimes, I don't think so, when they are robbing old and disabled, poor and vulnerable people, of the little they possess, because they are least likely to fight back.

Think again my friend, you haven't been paying attention to what is happening every day in a city near you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:21 PM

Big news in UK at the moment is how a group of 11 and 12 year old boys and girls apparently tried to hang a 5yr old .

Amazingly,these children have been charged with attempted murder.

What a sick society we live in, not only in the actions of the children, but how that action and the reaction of authority reflects on us all....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:25 PM

And the sociopaths and psychopaths will always be with us...so will the Stoopid Ones.....


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM

???


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:54 PM

Yo, Don... Think about this... If you decriminalize drug possession then guess what? The price goes way down and folks ain't bustin' into other folks homes to get the dough to maintain thier habits...

Plus, in doing so you also remove druggies from the criminal elements who get them involved with other bad stuff...

(But, Bobert, when you decriminalize drugs then everyone is gonna wanta be a drug addict, won't they?)

No, not really... Plus, if you allow addicted people access to drugs then you stand a much better chance of helping them with drug treatment rather than incarceration...

(But, Bobert, shouldn't the governemnt have to test these drugs before makin' them available to the general public to make sure they are safe?)

Well, no. More people are killed from alcohol and nicotine products than all the other drugs in existence and these are legal... I mean, lets get real here... It's okay to drink 'er smoke yerself to death, and in the case of drinkin' maybe kill some other folks on yer way, but lets lock up some kid fir smokin' crack????

I don't get it???

And out prisons are filled with folks whoes only crime was gettin' into drugs... Maybe after they get paroled they can just go out, buy a six pack fir 3 bucks and plow into a school bus???

Like I said, I don't get it...

And while I'm on the subject of not gettin' it lets keep in mind that a disportunate number of these folks we got locked up are descendants of former slaves who were supposedly set free???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:19 PM

born wanted
a society that truly values life
raised with genuine love
properly fed
medically and mentally cared for
educated

It's a big ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:26 PM

Don T, you beat me to the punch about bobert's reasoning.

If that is his vision of society, I would think that we would be in the ultimate of decadence.

Legalizing drugs is the wrong thing to do. Educating people about the unhealthy perils of drugs would be more productive.

bobert's ignorant colors shine through again.

Illegal drugs produce nothing but victims. Obviously bobert is in a drug induced fog.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM

I agree whole heartedly about educatin' folks about the perils of drug use... Couple that with a lot more drug treatment, decriminalizin', decent jobs for folks and guess what... The drug problem will no longer be the collective drag it is on our country.

But this of course isn't going to go over too well with the prison/industrial complex who have vested interests in keeping things just the way they are...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 09:59 PM

Thanks for somewhat coming to your senses, bobert.

I knew you could clear your head for a moment or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM

Saulgoldie - I totally agree with you.

It is an ideal that we should strive to attain.

It may not be true at present but that should not stop us from trying.

The only thing we know for sure is that all things change in time.

Better to keep your heart full of hope than despair.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:15 PM

Does this mean yer fir decriminalization and drug treatment and creatin' good jobs fir folks???


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:30 PM

decriminalization................absolutely not.
drug treatment.....................if you pay for it.
good jobs............................Yes. But we would have to take over China at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:39 PM

Well, we agree on 1 outta 3... Yep, yer boys have shipped to jobs outta this country...

As fir drug treatment and decriminalization? We are payin' for not not doing those things... and thru the nose... They would be a bargain...

Martin, do you have any idea what criminalization, the crime that results from it and incarceration is costing American???

I mean, billions, upon billions, upon billions of your tax dollars, yer insurance permium dollars & yer society...

Hey, if you feel comfy payin' to incarcerate upwards of 10% of the population then that's fine... I don't....

In the words of the late and great Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

Perhaps saulgoldie could enlighten us with the origin of the quote?
The Torah perhaps?

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM

I've been in a place where ALL medical treatment was free. 100% free. And it was a very good idea, and produced very good results in terms of general health in that society.

In Canada a good deal of it is free, but some of it is very expensive. Accordingly, a good many people do without the treatment they desperately need, and get sick and die prematurely. Too bad. That does not have to happen, but it happens.

As for drugs, I was keenly aware of the down side of those from the earliest age, and I didn't even need public education to alert me to that. Nope. I had the best thing of all to alert me to it...a family that did not abuse substances (not cigarettes, not alcohol, and not other drugs). Kids do tend to follow the example that's put in front of them at an early age (unless it is preached at them aggressively and shoved down their throats!).

Am I surprised that most of the young people I knew abused drugs when their parents were drinking and smoking in front of them all their lives? Naw..... One drug is pretty much like another. To go from a cigarette to a marijuana joint is like going from a blue shirt to a green shirt. Barely any difference, really, except one is arbitrarily illegal and the other isn't. You can get high on tobacco too, although it's a different kind of high. You also get high on coffee and alcohol, 2 more harmful drugs, both legal.

Hypocrisy is rampant, and it goes hand in hand with conventionality. The conventional mind says, "It's okay for me to abuse THIS drug because it's legal." The rebellious kid says, "Show me something ILLEGAL so I can prove to my peeers that I'm a real rebel."

Silliness all the way around. Silly parents. Silly kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM

Prisons are a bit like Baseball fields in cornfields..if you build them, you will fill them.

When I mentioned my Bible Concordance said there were virtually no jails or prisons in Pre-Roman times - nobody blinked and went on to quote statsitics about 1 in 25 people being sociopaths. Why is that, we should ask.

Before 1900, there were not many real prisons in The United States and then for a brief period early in the 20th Century we had prison reforms that did seem to work. What blew it all to hell was prohibition and the rise of orgnaized crime combined with the collapse of manufacturing in American cities which then created Ghettos and Inner-Cities in decay... oh bother...

My point is that if you don't have lots of cells in prisons as an out - you find solutions. The more prisons you have - the easier it is criminalise diseases such as addiction - toss them into jail and throw away the key. Maybe we should toss sociopaths down Cisterns like they did to Joseph in The Old Testament.. works for me.

Joel Norris actually argued quite well in his book on sociopathology that at least in Western societies, we are creating conditions that are condusive to growing more sociopaths and he referred to the rise in the numbers of serial killers as ' a public health crisis.' He made a good argument that the following forumla can be counted upon to create serial killers:

Malnourished male children + physical abuse (especially to the right brain) + sexual abuse + a couple other variables such as genetic predispostion = Serial killer

His contention that violent crime should be approached from a neurological perspective was revolutionary back in its day. Now we know that other things such as low resting heart rate can also predispose male children to violence later in life.

Where am I going with this.. I dunno... Just trying to suggest it isn't so simple as locking them all away. To a degree we get what we make of this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:29 AM

Good heavens, Dave's Wife: "...low resting heart rate can also predispose male children to violence later in life." ??

That's the first I've ever heard that. What correlation does that have? In my family ( a large one) a number of us have/had low heart rates as well as low blood pressure and I cannot imagine a less lawless family.

Can you direct me to some information on that? Thanks.

By the way, I suspect that Saul Goldie came up with that beautiful thought on his own. At least none of my search engines have found it or any portion of it. Take credit, Saul. It's a good thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM

In the prison system I believe the majority of inmates are there on drug or drug related charges. While I agree in part with both Don & Bobert I also think that if rehabilitation where really practiced instead of retribution & punishment & the drug clinics were used
to really help addicts recover instead control them in order to contain crime, society as a whole would benefit & I would think that the need for incarceration would decrease drastically. Just my 2 cents worth.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM

That was the point I was trying to make about partnering up business with prisons, Barry, so that inmates would be emplyed and upon their release have a smoother transition back in the general population...

But that just part of the rehabilitation process but a big part...

The problem is that with every follar we a re spending on new prisons we are taking from programs that help people stay out of prisons...

And our entire view of social spending tends to be punitive, be it schools that are shut down because they are failing (mostly from lack of resources to begine with) or a welfare propgram that punishes two parent families??? It just biggles my mind to think just how umcompassionate America is... at least it's policies...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

I humbly accept all the kudos for the quote. I did, in fact write it myself. I feel honored at some of the speculation as to where it came from.

I didn't mean the quote literally, and I don't for a minute believe that it could or would happen overnight. For one thing, it takes a generation of loved and cared for children to become the adults who will be staying out of prison.

Yes, Bobert, a huge percentage of the crime is related to drugs being illegal and abusers getting prison instead of treatment. It is also related to untreated mental illness, which is big part of the drug problem, which in turn is related to children's being raised with abuse.

And yes, too, there will always be a percetage of the population that is truly mentally ill. Most mental illness is treatable; some of it is no threat to society; and all of it can be much more effectively dealt with. Imagine one small fraction of the military budget being put to research on mental health, which is a national security issue of a different sort than soldiers on the field, but no less of one. And imagine a society that is open to enacting policies that the research suggests!

The thought, which I have harbored for some time, is both sad and hopeful for me. Hopeful, because I truly believe that it is within human capability, if we only had the will. Sad because we don't seem to have the will. We are off in so many cockamamamie directions and silly distractions that I don't know if we can find our way to the path. But if I didn't have at least a shred of hope, I wouldn't even have posted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:00 PM

Not much left to say except "amen".


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

Decriminalization of drug laws will create more drug addicts and put more danger on the streets.

It will still take money to buy them and crimes will still be committed to obtain them.

That, and a decadence that I hope never happens.

Only onewho is in to drugs can campaign for it. As one who was a total pothead years ago, that agenda is almost always self serving.

It will never happen. I thought it might at one time and am now thankfully convinced that it won't.

What old hippies like bobert are out of touch with, is that the generations after us are far more conservative to this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:51 PM

It's not just the will, it's the understanding that is needed as well. Everyone who becomes a parent has to develop parenting skills to enable those children to grow up into the type of human beings Saul is talking about.

Until ALL parents understand that they have been granted a very special priviledge in their children and take the time and the care to nurture them in the right way it ain't never going to happen. It seems to me that their will always be the selfish or careless or ignorant childrearer, no matter how hard the majority try to do the right thing. Human nature, yes, but how do you legislate for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:22 PM

"As one who was a total pothead years ago...' That explains so much. Take your meds.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

Ebbie - I'll PM if you like with a list of papers and books that explore the various genetic aspects of potential predispostion to violence. It would bore the pants of everyone here. And, it's not just the metabolic issues that are being explored.

I co-authored an article that summarised some of the research and while I oversimplified it quite a bit in my statement - the low resting heart-rate...when found in conjunction with certain other physiological factors does seem to be a valid predictor for which males may 'act out' in their teens and/or develop a history of violence. The danger of course in in people over-applying the information innapropriately. It's not something that can be boiled down to a soundbyte.

The cutting edge research in this area is actually not being done in the United States where I live, but in England. One of the doctors involved actually has sxome of the traits he's studying! He makes it clear that there is a difference between sociopathology and this physiological predispostion to violence that's being explored. They differentiate between people who acquire lower resting heart-rates via physical conditiong and people who are born with abnormally low heart rates.

One of the theories is that these kids are less easily aroused emiotionally and therefore less likely to develop normal empathy. they also display a sort of 'slow burn' type of anger that isn't as readily apparent to observers because of their low arousal. Therefore, when they actually have a burst of rage, it appears to be out of proprotion to nromalm rage when in fact, it merely took them a lot longer to get that angry. Therefore, the problem may be more in how we react to these kids than in the kids themselves.

As with anything having to do with raising children, the evidence seems to show that parents can have a postive effect on kids who have a]some of these characteristics but simply encouraging greater engagement with peers, family and their enivirnoment. So while, yes, there are certain genetic characteristics that might predsipose one to certain behvaiors society finds troublesome, there also appears to be plenty of means to mitiagte that predispostion.

I hope that explains things more completely. Let me know if you want to do some reading.

I only brought this up because my statements were headed towards the 'we get the society we deserve' end of the argument and I was merely attempting to qaulify my own words with the 'there will always be physicological factors we can't control' type of argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

It's a truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We've gone through this sort of thing before, and it resulted in a monumental increase in crime and gang warfare--not unlike the current so-called "war on drugs." All I need say is one word:--

Prohibition.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:00 PM

Not at all Martin, give them the drugs free - if that's what they want to do with their lives.

cheaper than all these sodding policemen and prisons.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:42 PM

Who should give them the drugs?

and what idiot high on them is going to do to the people around him that are not?

Crime will go up as reasoning is hampered, morons high on anything will believe they are bulletproof, and you've got quite frankly chaos.

No, sorry it will never happen. Throw the bums in jail. They contribute nothing to society.

Ebbie, been off pot for almost 20 years. Just think if you were drug free.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:01 PM

whenever I took drugs, it always increased my paranoia, rather than making me think I was bulletproof. taking drugs or getting drunk is not an acceptable reason for bad behaviour.

Coleridge , Burroughs, Kerouac, The beatles, Charlie parker, Louis Armstrong....druggy people have made significant contributions to our culture. if thats how they choose to live, lets have the maximum freedom possible for everybody.

also if you decriminalise, you cut out the gangsters and you have factories purifying the dope and making the supplies and you give these countries where they grow it a proper financial base less need for foreign aid.

Just sound economics, supply and demand...you can't buck the market!

You haven't got shares in the corrections industry by any chance?

al


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:13 PM

If we're going to throw all of the drug users in jail can we start with Rush Limbaugh ??


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM

You're right- I am a coffee drinker. sob


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM

Compared to tobacco, most other drugs are less inherantly dangerous, and less addictive, yet the prisons are not full of those commiting crimes to feed their cigarette habit.

The illeagality of drugs is resposible for a large part of the attraction, and the dangers of those drugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:58 PM

Bunny, don't be stupid. cigarettes never made people irrational and out of there head. granted they are addictive. I smoked for years and kicked that habit almost 9 years ago.

You would have more crime and nut cases out there.

what part of MIND ALTERING to you morons not understand?

What part of promoting good health do you you morons not understand.

I still say, you want it decriminalized first because it lowers YOUR OWN risk. It's a dopers campaign only.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:04 PM

Martin Gibson. The Carrie Nation of pot.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:17 PM

Guest, I am sure the Mexican cartel you have been supporting was worth how black your lungs are.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:21 PM

If Martin Gibson has enough guts to come out and admit his failings...We all have them... I dont think we who think ourselves so superior, should start kicking him for it...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:46 PM

Akenaton - If you look around you will see that Martin is a compulsive verbal abuser of women here at the Mudcat. I've guessed correctly that it is to compensate for his lack of power in the real world. We all know that the women of Chicago would smack him upside the head if he ever talked like that to a real woman. Most of us stopped using his dirty little words in the 7th or 8th grade. Martin has something out of whack - even Ray Charles could see that. He claims that he just wants to set the liberals straight - but we know he just likes to talk dirty and can't afford to call those 1-900 numbers he collects.

He lives in a sad little world and he comes here to get his jollies. The truth is that his mama didn't raise him right. He is to be pitied.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,sleepless Dad
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:21 PM

I don't know why I just denied the post I did. I must have blacked out. I am throwing in the towel and admitting I have been way too harsh here about not letting others have their opinions.

I want to apologize to Martin Gibson for stalking him and trying to ridicule him. I hope he accepts my apology because if he doesn't, I will be............................sleepless.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

the fact of the matter Sleepless dad, is Ake is right and you are completely wrong. You do not know me at all. I have been happily married for years and the only women I call cunts are the ones I honestly feel should be. It has nothing to do with mistreating women. I would call you a cunt also, but instead I will call you a prick.

If I use any dirty words it is strictly to annoy a few like you which I successfully do. It is because you are so thin skinned, so plastic, so full of shit, that yep, you guessed it, you seserve it.

I don't need any power trip. but you need a lesson in life, pal. Your world is not your world alone.

Otherwise I would consider accepting your apology as you posted in the thread above.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:28 PM

Now Martin - If you're going to do this please make sure you post in the correct thread. And don't forget - Sleepless is spelled with a capital S. One of the first things you do when your meds start to kick in is you start spell words incorrectly and you forget to capitalize.

Lets stop our personal squabbles. Let the adults talk about issues please. Be a good little boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:05 PM

I don't drink alcohol.
don't smoke anything
don't take drugs.

just pissed off with hearing that police forces need more resources and they are overstretched.

in this case they are doing a job I think is a complete waste of time and public money.

there was a tv programme a few months ago about a boat being stalked off the coast of England with a cargo of marihuana - there were helicopters, SWAT teams and god knows what else.... I mean really who gives a shit.

Schools haven't got enough books, hospitals haven't got enough beds, and they waste money on this!

let these people pay taxes for what they want to do like everybody else, and get on with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM

I think there has been a lot of thread creep here - the original thread was addressing the bringing up of children in an ideal world.

Drugs aren't the only problem here. I am aware of a number of parents who are just unable to see what their behaviour is doing to their children without any legal or illegal drugs being involved. Some of these families are well off, with good living conditions. It's not just the 'drinking classes' who don't have a clue, there is a lot of 'respectable abuse' going on in apparently normal families.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:57 PM

Mudcat Quote of the Day!

From: Martin Gibson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

you need a lesson in life, pal. Your world is not your world alone. Your world is not your world alone.
~~~~~

ROFL

That's called 'projection' Marty!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM

"Visualize World Peace"


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:18 PM

"Visualize Whirled Peas"

Have a good weekend!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:50 PM

Yeah, some very positive posts here today which far outweigh the usual dumbass posts by the usual resident dumbass...

Yeah, Welittle, exactly.... Hey, when folks gotta mix themselves up with gangsters and criminals to get a little smoke, things do not bode well...

And Saul, right on... Mental health spending has been cut year after year ever since Reagan started axin' the Title XX money that we used to have to provide some half way decent services for folks suffering from vatious degrees of mental illness... That was 'round 1980 when the cuts started takin' place and they were down right cruel... I know because I was working in Adult Services as a social worker at the time... I saw adult day care facilties closed. These were places where folks could get some counseling, have a place to hang other than on sidewalks, and have a little hope in their lives. We had a great one in Richmond called the Daily Planet and the folks there were makin' like minimum wage to run the joint but, heym a lot of folks gopt alot of good services from the Daily Planet... Then came the Republicans who think it's all about them... Ans so they cut the Title XX funds...

Also cut were Title XX funds for "companio providers" who would assit the elderly poor folks a few hours a week with shoppin', er housework, 'er whatever they needed... Most of these elderly poor folks got about 6 hours per week which wasn't much fir shut-ins but it was better than nuthin'... Then along came compassionate conservatism where the churchs wouls step in and carry the ball... Problem was and still is that the churches have little interest in the poor or mentally ill...

So, here we are. A country run by a bunch of rich folks who think their only job is to get richer... Now these rich folks wanta cut Social Security???? And Medicaid???? They think that because they got away with cuttin' Title XX money that they can just cut any danged social program they want??? Well, this is gonna backfire on them when Joe Sixpack figguires out that hie well being is in their sights... And that day is comin' like a hell-bound train...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:54 PM

Foolstroupe, projection is you vomiting after you ate shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:13 PM

Like I was sayin', we used to have Title XX funds fir treatin' folks with mental illness...


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:49 AM

I have always been baffled that people who are so mean when spending taxpayer's money on their own people to relieve cripppling poverty, crime, physical and mental illness etc are so generous in spending it on the attempted enforcement of unenforceable laws. With figures approaching one per cent of the population incarcerated (in The Land of the Free) it is surprising how much dedication is invested in punishing people for victimless crime. Furthermore, it is the same people who detest subsidy for their own citizens in any area of their own welfare, who support the generous subsidies which are effectively donated to oil companies and other latter day robber barons when they set off to burgle and exploit in other countries. Mind you, I ain't arguing with all this. You guys have got your principles!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:56 AM

I'm wondering how many of the prison population are in for 'victimless' crimes. Is there a statistic? Think I'll go google.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 06:25 AM

There is a demand for drugs.

let ICI make the drugs.
Boots the Chemist sell them.
If it is your chosen path in life, do a vocational course at the local college - Being a junkie101 - they can teach you about clean needles and stuff like that.

Then your houses wouldn't be burgled by junkies. the gangsters would be out of the frame. the prisons would be emptier.

Then songwriters and film makers would see what a dull as fuck subject this is - no more waiting on the man, cocaine blues, trainspotting, etc, diving down toilets.....
there must be a catch, otherwise they would have done it years ago, but I can't see what it could be.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:50 AM

But then the welfare would have to pay for these people to be unemployable. We would have to pay for their food and housing costs.

They would procreate and be in charge of minors while under the influence of drugs.

They would be driving cars in altered states of mind. They would be a liability to the public around them, as their judgement would be impaired in every aspect, from turning off the gas to crossing the roads.

We would be funding the reason that they can not be a contributing member of society. And then funding them to be able to live. And ultimately funding their funeral. Can we afford that?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:31 AM

Not really, GUEST... You are grossly generalizing what you think a junkie is... Most "junkies" hold jobs and don't fit yout stereotype at all... Most "junkies" battle their addictions and go for periods of time drug free... See, you are lumping everyone into one mold... Ain't that easy...

Okay, sure, there are a few folks who are just trying to medicate themselves literally to death and those folks, if the drugs are made avaialabe, might be required to arrend some counseling sessions in order ro get the drugs... But if you have taken the gangsters out of the senerio, hey, the program is the only game in town... I could also see "junkie communes" where folks could live with other "junkies" and with just minimal funding could be pretty much self supporting communities/programs... Lot cheaper and far more humanistic than ofrcin' folks to rub elbows with gansters, then lockin' 'um up...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:25 AM

From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:13 PM

Like I was sayin', we used to have Title XX funds fir treatin' folks with mental illness...
~~~~~~
Yeah Bobert, nowadays they got nowhere to go but the Mudcat where they got nothing to do but amuse themselves with displaying their misogynist foulmouthing...


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:35 AM

Survival of the species may require that some of the traits of the most evil aberrant (reptillian brained) individuals have an ongoing place in our gene pool. Be that as it may, I believe that nature can sometimes just make a mistake.

saulgoldie has still stated a most important goal for civilization. It seems sad to me that population reduction may be required to achieve it.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:44 AM

Nice quote saulgoldie.. Lets hope we can achieve at least a reduction of inmates. One way or another ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:48 PM

Yo Follestroupe,

Might want check out the post immediately precceding the quote you used (wink, wink...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:16 PM

Just out of curiosity....

How many of the folks who have posted here have ever had someone close to them actually serve time in a jail or prison? Not overnight for a drunken episode or siuch.. but months or years?

I ask because this afternoon I sat down and wrote a long, chatty letter to the son of a friend who is doing time in a State Prison for Fraud. He was a minor when he comitted the crime, but was sentenced as an adult and is doing ten years I think for some computer related fraud. I don't doubt that he was guilty and it doesn't much matter to me one way or another.   He's one of those non-violent offenders who might actually be able to make something of his life when he gets out if he doesn't get shanked or lured into further criminal activity whilst in prison.

I feel bad for his Mum and promised to write to him since he's starved for anything to read. I'll be sending him some magazines, books and photos of my dog and garden. He's young enough to be my own son. Whatever you think of sentencing laws, The War on Drugs and such matters.. one has to at least be aware that prisons are rather horroble places that are not kind to people such as this young man since he has no gang affiliation, no racial group with which to form solidarity, and nothing but his rediscovered faith to give him any hope. I hope getting a letter once in a while is some help.

I agreed to do this because I recall too vividly the recent experience of a friend who had to do six months in county jail over a domestic diispute which became violent. Both he and the woman threw punches and worse.. he's the one who was arrested. Whether that was right or wrong wasn't my concern. What was my concern was seeing a middle class white guy in the arts go into jail totally unprepared to survive. The Aryans hated him because he wasn't a racist, the Hispanic gangs hated him because he was white. A couple of Black prisoners who were Christians took him under their wing and helped him find his way. I learned a great deal through visting him and talking to him on the phone while he was incarcerated. I'd describe more about it, but I don't want to go off on a tangent here.

So.. how many Mudcatters besides me have had loved ones do time?


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:22 PM

To say drugs should be decriminalised and readily available, we have to pinpoint what drugs we are talking about.
It may work for grass, it sure as hell wouldn't be the same scenario with heroin/crack.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:32 AM

Dave's wife - what a picture you paint of the judicial system and its mindless cruelty.

No I don't know anybody in jail, or have I ever been in jail - not even for an hour, much less a night.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 07:02 AM

Yo Bobert!

He could be (wink wink) a druggie too


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:33 AM

Well, I've had good friends do time... One of my best friends did 8 years fir selling and possessing pot. Another did three years for a 2nd possession offense (again pot). Another did 7 years fir murder and sadly, another friend who has a major problem with alcohol was arrested fir murder just 3 weeks ago...

But beyond friends, I worked 3 years as a jail house teacher at the Richmond City Jail on 17th St, which is one big danged jail... I also worked ar a drug rehab halfway house for a couple years where most of the folks were probabted by the courts for treatment... Most of these folks were 1st or 2nd offenders...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

The above GUEST was me...


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM

It may work for grass, it sure as hell wouldn't be the same scenario with heroin/crack.

Crack, yes, induces tends to induce psychosises in a high proportion of its users that are dangerous to both its users and those around them.

Prior to its criminialisation,(under heavy US pressure) the UK had a few thousand herion addicts, a majority of whom were Doctors prescribing it to themselves.
It is not a good thing to be addicted to, but if it cost as much as a pack of cigarettes, people would not not forced to choose between their next dose, food or the rent. And not be risking prision.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM

There is no evidence to support if heroin is prescribed with discipline that it causes problems. But that is not the same as saying it should be as available as a packet of cigs?

It is an opiate (diamorphine) and is totally benign, but only when used with supervision. It's natural addictive qualities would be too much of a temptation for most I think, and they would still be faced with the dilemma of spending too much money on that as opposed to food etc.

I would estimate that the majority of registered heroin addicts in the UK do not work at the moment. They therefore have their rent paid by housing benefit, so the decision re rent/heroin isn't one many face.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM

One time I went for a teaching job at Dorchester Jail. They said,

Well you've seen the place, tell us what you think of it......

And I said, Well I think its the most awful place, i've ever been in my life. Like something out Charles Dickens....you know the press yard, Newgate, The Marshalsea, and all that......er, isn't that the idea?

Apparently it wasn't. I didn't get the job.

Interviews I have mishandled and completely blown.... there should be a thread on that! In fact I could probably write the first 100 or so messages myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 01:35 PM

bobert, just look at the jail bird derelicts you associate with.

No wonder you are a paranoid freak.

Go smoke another one on the way to a gig, bobert. One day theey will get you and put you away like you deserve to be also.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:07 PM

In Vancouver we have had a needle exchange program for quite a long time. Recently, safe injection sites have been introduced. Oddly enough, not many junkies have signed up. Even so, the crime rate has decreased remarkably.

Guest 04 Jun 05 - 07:50 AM

Whether we treat heroin addiction as a criminal offence or as a medical problem, we are still funding it. The hope is that by providing clean needles and safe injection sites, the incidence of HIV and criminal activity will be reduced. Another hope is that, with counselling, an addict will kick the habit.

There has to be an alternative to jail because prison's cost too much and do nothing but provide a temporary solution. Eventually, the prisoner is released and the cycle begins again.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM

I agree that the current jail system does not go far enough into rehabilitation and counselling, it should do more I think. I suspose it's a resources thing again. But if someone has commited an offence they should go to jail. It is what happens once they are in there that needs changing. They should be offered the best counselling and training for a job on their release.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 02:52 PM

The offence that is committed is to their own bodies. Its not as if the general public has to be protected from them. Unless, of course, they have to steal to support their habit. If we provide the heroine, they do not have to steal and they do not have to addict others as a means of supporting their own habit.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:02 PM

If we provide the heroin we are still funding their choice of life style.And giving them no incentive to change it.

Rehabilitation and counselling and job training would give them the means to fund themselves. The heroin user isn't only abusing their own body. Their families and friends are also victims of their addiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:29 PM

Addiction is a medical problem. Once addicted, you have very little choice. Thats the problem. Lifestyle has nothing to do with heroin addiction. There are plenty of people who live the high life who are addicted and we are none the wiser because they can afford to pay for it.

We can provide the heroin at a very low price. Its only when it hits the streets that it becomes expensive. Like I said, we pay for heroin addicts one way or another. By providing it, we stop the need to 'hook' others to pay for the addicts own drugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

Once addicted, you have very little choice.

And that is where we should be channelling the resources, into giving them a choice. When there are a equal number of rehab programmes/counselling sessions and job training schemes available for the number of addicts, they have that choice.

What they choose to do with that choice is then up to them. I can not see the logic in denying them those choices whilst paying for their habit. It is prolonging the problem and doing nothing to stop it.

Their families and friends are the victims too, but not only financially. They pay the emotional price too. If my son was a heroin addict, I would get no comfort in knowing that he had it supplied free by the tax payer, I would rather the money was spent on trying to get him off the stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:25 PM

Its not a case of buying them the heroin. Its a case of not paying the gangster for it. pay the people who grow the stuff, process it, sell it,a decent wage - like everything else.

i bet it would cost hardly anything if it were a product like any other. As it is, its costing us a fortune in trying to enforce unenforceable laws, street crime, prisons, supporting gangsters....and the illegal aspect makes it glamorous to the young and daft.

You couldn't do it in a laissez faire manner, the way Thatcher dismantled the welfare services and called it care in the community - but it could and should be done, because it would be morally the right thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

I havent read all of this thread - I must do so before I put in my pennorth !!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM

But Meanwhile -- 100 !!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 09:41 PM

I have now read through this thread . My first thought is that there is a hell of a lot of crap in here ! The second thought is that a lot of people are concerned about the prison population .
As far as the Drug issue is concerned , Alcohol causes a lot of the problems in the world and is totally legal (with Age as the only control) and tobacco is one of the most addictive drugs we know , and is also totally leagal (again ,in UK with an Age Control).
IF marijuana was legalised and quality controlled , it would earn money for the Government in Tax , would reduce the dangers to users in
the quality would be constant and would remove pot users from the criminals who give free fixes to get poor sods hooked on hard drugs .
The hard drug issue is a bit more complicated especially as so many people still USE hard drugs despite all the warnings in the media about the dangers !


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 01:43 AM

well sorry leadfingers but actually we were all trying engage in some sort of a dialogue about something that affects all our communities. Namely how declaring something like the drugs trade criminal doesn't add much to the gaiety of nations.

Its a subject that doesn't get aired all that much because - i dunno - I used to think the major political parties were getting a rake off from organised crime. Nowadays I think its just mental laziness. You know your daily Mail reader is going to brand you a drug crazed hippy or some such shit for even talking about it. that's about as elevated as the debate ever gets in England.

At least three different people from three different residential areas locally have told me substantially the same story in the last few months though, which is:-

A group of drug pushers have moved into our street. They have cars parked down the street that they don't bother to pay tax on. They steal. they fence stolen goods. We see streams of kids come to their to their door quite openly to score. We tell the police. the police say they are aware of the situation and do nothing about it.

As the media don't travel North of watford the fact never really got circulated that the hard drugs trade took a hold in mining villages of North Notts when Thatch closed down all the mines.

However its a business I feel we could do without, and I think decriminalisation is the best way. get rid of the crooks and face the problem head on.

the sooner we start cleaning up the mess, the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 08:02 AM

As for the governemnt not gettin' kickbacks I just point out that Afganistan is back up to full speed in the gtowing and cultivation of their poppi crop... And under the watchful eye of the US military and CIA...

Right now keeping drugs illegeal is a big money thing for all involved, including the prison/military/industrial complex...

Only problem is is what is slowly happening is that the population, at least in the US is slowly being desensitid to a high per capita incarceration rate... This does not bode well for the future of a society that boasts about its love for lberty and freedom...

Plus it is very costly on many, many levels...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

Thoughts for your consideratioin:

Fifty years ago in North Idaho we had an unofficial free drug program. An addict would come into the county seat (Bonners Ferry, pop. 1700+), get picked up by the police, get a shot from one of the local MD's and the sheriff would take him to the county line, where he could continue to the next town and on around the circuit. It wasn't exactly legal, but there were no facilities for doing anything else. It was kept more or less quiet, but it wouldn't be hard to find out about, especially if you had a vested interest in getting a fix. There was, at that time, no Drug Problem in Idaho.

Marijuana wasn't a problem until well after it became illegal in the 30's.

I understand the drug suppliers are in favor of keeping the stuff illegal; same as the bootleggers lobbied for prohibition.

Alcohol is a hard drug.

Every community has at last one of the respected Main Street crowd making money off illegal drugs. Most likely not dealing, but profiting. Money laundering, perhaps. (This one isn't a survey result; it's a matter of deduction.)

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 08:22 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM

In light of the tragic events at VaTech, I renew my call for mental health care for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:29 PM

That would put a lot of religious organizations out of business, Saul. Mental health makes people less dependent on arbitrary and authoritarian solutions, more able to ask questions and sort out the logical from the illogical. You sure you want that for everyone?

We'd see a catastrophic drop in sales of Bibles, Torahs, and K'orans.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:49 PM

If a catastrophic drop in the sales of religious books is the price of a mentally healthy populace, then so be it. Religious institutions that cannot survive having mentally balanced and healthy members do not deserve to survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:10 PM

weelittledrummer.

Most jobs require a willingness to accept and promote a common lie.

Troublemakers are those who seem to have honesty issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM

I have to refresh this thread. I know I am biased (because I started it). But it is as relevant today as it was when I started it.

A friend commented on it when I sent it around by email. This is what he said, "Also, when all children can have genuine love and care, we can start talking about finding ways to reduce abortion."

I said:

Yes, abortion is definitely part of the equation. Now, feel free to assert that you are not one of the "them" that I am talking about and to clarify your position. But most of the pundits and policy-makers I hear who call themselves "pro-life" are steadfastly (and even violently!) opposed to honest sex education and condom use advocacy that would absolutely mean fewer abortions. Furthermore, I doubt if you could find a single advocate for choice, much less someone who has had an abortion who takes or has taken the decision lightly, as one would a walk in the park or having another beer. I also doubt that you could find any advocate of reproductive choice who thinks that abortions should be thought of as first line contraception. That is why you see among the advocates of the right to choose people also advocating wider access to condoms and education on their use and appropriateness.

Furthermore furthermore, the advocates for abortion decisions by law and not individual choice "choose" to focus on the very low failure rate of condoms as reason to oppose such education and access. Can you show me one public figure who opposes individual choice who does advocate for condom access and honest sex education?

Furthermore furthermore, and furthermore, I can't see why anyone would oppose the use of condoms. If one sees life as "beginning at conception" as these pundits and policy-makers say they do, a condom 99.9% of the time (or pretty close to that) prevents any conception. A quick Google search shows this website:

http://advocatesforyouth.org/publications/416?task=view
And this cut and paste:
Condoms Are Effective in Preventing Unintended or Unwanted Pregnancy.

    * In one year, only two of every 100 couples who use condoms consistently and correctly will experience an unintended pregnancy—two pregnancies arising from an estimated 8,300 acts of sexual intercourse, for a 0.02 percent per-condom pregnancy rate.[3]


The truth is that, despite what those who call themselves "pro-life" might think (or say they think), no one wants abortions. But depriving women from the right to make that painful choice is not only not the answer, but it is an affront to all women. They, not the state, not anyone, no matter how strongly they feel about their religious beliefs that tell them when life begins is entitled to make that choice for them. It is essential for any potential mother to want her eventual child. And that is why I specifically said "born wanted."

Indeed, if a woman is forced to carry a fetus to birth against her will, how can anyone in their right mind expect that that child will be wanted or loved? And if the child is not wanted or loved, how can we reasonably expect that it will grow up to be loving and non-hurtful?

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:58 AM

Wonderful, saulgoldie.


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Subject: RE: BS: And the prisons shall be empty...
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

What Ebbie said!!


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