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Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme

SharonA 16 Jun 05 - 05:48 PM
Joe Offer 17 Jun 05 - 05:22 AM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 05 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Joe Offer 17 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM
SharonA 17 Jun 05 - 03:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM
SharonA 18 Jun 05 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 20 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 20 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM
beardedbruce 21 Jun 05 - 11:15 PM
Highlandman 22 Jun 05 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 19 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,MikeOfNorthumbria (sans cookie) 20 Aug 15 - 10:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 15 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,henryp 21 Aug 15 - 10:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Aug 15 - 08:18 PM
Mr Red 22 Aug 15 - 04:04 AM
Mr Red 22 Aug 15 - 04:18 AM
Gda Music 22 Aug 15 - 09:33 AM
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Subject: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:48 PM

I attended a song-critique meeting the other day (where people bring in songs they've written, play the songs and invite comments from the meeting's leader and the group). One of the participants (not me!) had a song with an ABBA rhyme in the verse followed by a CDCD rhyme in the pre-chorus (a.k.a. the "lift"). The leader of the group, a songwriter with connections to Nashville TN and some success in having his songs published, commented that he couldn't think of a popular or commercially successful song with that sort of rhyming scheme, and suggested that the writer change her lyrics if she intended to submit it for publication.

That has got me to thinking: there must be some known songs out there that do have an ABBACDCD rhyming scheme... mustn't there? The nearest I came to coming up with one was to think of Don McLean's "And I Love You So" (a day after the meeting, of course!), which has an ABBA CDDC EEEFFE rhyme scheme:


"And I love you so.
The people ask me how,
How I've lived till now;
I tell them I don't know

They say they understand
How lonely life has been
But life began again
The day you took my hand.

CHORUS: And yes, I know how lonely life can be.
         The shadows follow me
         And the night won't set me free.
         But I don't let the evening bring me down
         Now that you're around
         Me."



Can anyone think of any ABBACDCD songs? They don't necessarily have to be popular songs, though I'd be curious to know if there are any (and vindicated in my refutation of the leader's criticism -- I didn't see anything wrong with using that rhyme scheme even if it isn't commonly heard on pap... I mean, pop radio stations!).

Thanks,
Sharon


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:22 AM

Can't think of any, sharon - but I think it's a darn good question that deserves to be refreshed and sent to the top of the list.
Anybody know of a book that lists songs by rhyme scheme?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 06:23 AM

Actually, it sounds like a shortened Italian sonnet structure- ( ABBAABBA CDCDCD)


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST,Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM

...or a Scandanavian pop group: ABBAABBA

Or the thing that the monkeys in the soo say. Abba dabba dabba, Abba dabba dabba

No?
Oh, forget it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:38 PM

ARDY AR AR, Joe.   :^)

Bruce, interesting comment about sonnet structure! Tell me more; I'm not up on my Italian poetry.

Thanks,
Sharon


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM

In its online collection of representative poems, the University of Toronto website gives the rhyme form of the poem.
Example: "Little Willie," by Eugene Field: ababcdcd
Poem Index


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:35 PM

Nice try, Q, but not quite what I'm looking for. I need an ABBA rhyme in the beginning, not ABAB. For example, "Little Willie" would have to look a bit like this to qualify:

1 When Willie was a little boy,
2    No more than five or six,
3 Right constantly he, with his tricks,
4    His mother did annoy.
5 Yet not a picayune cared I
6    For what he did or said,
7 Unless, as happened frequently,
8    The rascal wet the bed.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM

re sonnet structure:

Major forms are Italian, English, and Irregular.

Italian sonnets are based on an octet/sestet structure ( 8/6 lines)

Rhyme schemes for the octet are usually abbaabba, but occasionally ( in English, with less rhymes) abbaacca.

The rhyme scheme for the sestet could be any of several:
cdcdcd
cdecde
cdeedc

with some irregualar forms in English:
cddccd
ccddee
in actual fact, with the English variations of the Italian form, there are probably sonnets with every possible combination of rhymes in the sestet. Some authorities have stated that Italian sonnets should NOT have a concluding couplet, but that is not rigirously supported by all.


The English sonnet was based on a three quatrain and couplet structure.

The quatrains could be abab ( common, or Shakespearian) or abba (envelope) The couplet was always gg :)

The case of abba cddc effe gg gives an English sonnet that looks like an Italian. The actual form is determined by the logic of the poem (Italian [point/counterpoint] or English [example/example/example summary or contradiction] )
Irregular sonnets include 7 couplets, and mixed variations of the two forms. Sinec a sonnet by definition has a rhyme structure, there should never be more than 7 different rhyme sets, and there could be as few as 2.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM

I find the thought that people in the country music business worry much about formal rhyme schemes a bit absurd. It may of course be quite true, but that doesn't stop it being absurd.

I suppose the idea might be that, if the effect was that successive verses seemed to be rhyming in different ways, it could be felt as clumsy, as if the rhymnes were just being thrown in at at random.   But a verse doing it one way and a chorus or a bridge doing it the other way, I can't see how there'd be any problem there.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM

McGrath,

You really need to get used to the idea that you are old, and have nothing of worth to contribute.

Don't suppose that you will...


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:15 PM

SharonA,

some examples of all the forms are in the "In every thread someone has to be last!" thread.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Highlandman
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 10:20 AM

Just an odd thought:
Close rhyme schemes tend to make a song catchier. More complex or distant rhyme schemes tend to give a song a more contemplative, ballad-like character. Commercial country music producers don't want contemplation, they want cash.
A random sampling of the local pop country station over the last few days shows an overwhelming preference for close rhyme schemes, and probably 75% of them are (aa)B(cc)B - where (aa) would be an internal rhyme between two half-lines. (Sorry, don't know the academic way of notating this.)
The US country music industry is eaten up with the herd mentality. Something worked once, so everyone has to copy it to the last detail whether they understand why it worked or not. A writer selling to a particular market has to work to its specifications, even if they are artificial.
Just my cranky 2 cents.
-HM


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM

Sweet Baby James - James Taylor!!!!!!!!!!!

Check it out.

You're welcome.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST,MikeOfNorthumbria (sans cookie)
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 10:36 AM

Hello McGrath of Harlow!

Please ignore the anonymous grouch above, and keep right on contributing.

Meanwhile, on the original subject of this thread (rhyming)- surely beauty is in the ear of the beholder? If it pleases enough people, a song will thrive, whatever its rhyme-scheme.

On the whole, complex rhyming structures appear to work better for comedy (as with W S Gilbert, or Tom Lehrer) while simple ones seem more compatible with the deeper feelings. But in matters of taste, there are no unbreakable rules. Whatever works, works.

Wassail!


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 10:37 AM

Sweet Baby James is actually a bit more complicated than that, but It's a great example of the fact that a great and memorable song doesn't have to be simple.

There is a young cowboy, he lives on the range.(A) His horse and his cattle (B) and are his only companions.(C)
He works in the saddle(B) and he sleeps in the canyons,(C) waiting for summer, his pastures to change.(A)
And as the moon rises he sits by his fire,(D) thinking about women and glasses of beer.(E)
And closing his eyes as the doggies retire(D), he sings out a song which is soft but it's clear(E)
as if maybe someone could hear...(E)

Goodnight you moon light ladies, rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F)
Deep greens and blues (G) are the colors I choose,(G) won't you let me go down in my dreams?(F)
And rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F)


I'm not sure how important the rhyme scheme is to making this song so good, but it certainly doesn't hurt. (I trust this last GUEST isn't the same one from ten years ago up above...)


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 10:38 AM

A great spot by Guest - and a great song too! Analysed a little more simply, it's ABBA CDCDD.

There is a young cowboy, he lives on the range.(A)
His horse and his cattle and are his only companions.(B)
He works in the saddle and he sleeps in the canyons,(B)
Waiting for summer his pastures to change.(A)

And as the moon rises he sits by his fire,(C)
Thinking about women and glasses of beer.(D)
And closing his eyes as the dogies retire,(C)
He sings out a song which is soft but it's clear,(D)
As if maybe someone could hear.(D)

Goodnight you moonlight ladies,(E)
Rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F)
Deep greens and blues(G)
Are the colors I choose,(G)
Won't you let me go down in my dreams?(F)
And rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F)

A dogie, dogy, or dogey is a cowboy's name for a stray or motherless calf. It's derivation is uncertain, but lots of colourful explanations exist.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 08:18 PM

"Doggies" was a mispelling from the text I lifted to show the rhyme scheme, which I failed to amend. It would certainly give a different picture to anyone who took it the wrong way... I wonder if anyone has ever sung it with the canine pronunciation, in that or other songs.

Get along you little doggies understood as an attempt to avert a dogfight...


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 04:04 AM

George Bernard Shaw said (many things but he said this)

The  Golden Rule   is that there are no golden rules.

However if you want to write "Country" (or Western) it won't "feel" Country if it doesn't have a few of the ingredients. Like "She dun left me" eg.

Why was the song written? If it was itching to come out and that was the scratch then it serves its purpose. If it was to earn money then the criteria are defined by the genre. But then if all you want is a meal ticket try the wheeze from "How to be a Successful Songwriter" put forward by 50% of the contributors. Take a song, re-write the lyrics, and then re-write the tune. Neil Sedaka wrote one chapter, and his early songs looked like he did just that.
Of course your skill as a wordsmith has to be paramount, and your tunesmithing needs to match for it to stand out, but don't knock it, it pays.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 04:18 AM

Rhyme is like punctuation, it serves by allowing the listener to predict what is coming, thus giving more time (mindspace) to understand the message. If we get it smack on it looks like doggerel, if it is unusual but a good rhyme we applaud. But being a moving feast we don't have time to analyse it, we just like it or don't.
For a rhyme to work best there has to be some temporal proximity, and a pattern so we don't have to waste mindspace on wondering where the rhyme was.
Hence C&W usually uses simpler rhyme patterns. What I calls "mental wallpaper".

GBS was right though, rules is rules, but you can make your own if you is clever enough.

Now dare we introduce enjambed rhymes? Like Cole Porter eg.


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Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme
From: Gda Music
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 09:33 AM

I`m not sure whether this 2 verse song is what you are looking for?. I wrote it along with a dozen other numbers back in 1952 when serving abroad in the RAF. A couple seemed to me to be OK tunes but this one always stood out as being more a non rhyming poem that could always bring a tear to my eyes!.

THERE`S A SONG
(Graham Johnstone)

There`s a song
That brings back memories to me
Of days gone by
A song of loves that have been broken
And friendships long since past
There`s a song
That helps me reminisce
Recalls to me when I was young
That`s the song I`ve lived for
And when I die it will live on.

There`s a song
That means so very much to me
I can`t forget
A song of loves that have been broken
And friendships long since past
There`s a song
That takes me back some time
Those yesteryears were long ago
That`s the song I`ve lived for
And when I die it will live on.

GJ


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