BS: Only Librarians Will Care....

Subject: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM

According to what I'm seen on listservs today, including an announcement to SIRSI customers from Patrick Sommers, SIRSI and Dynix signed a merger agreement yesterday.

You librarians out there (and there are a couple) will know what this means. I sincerely doubt that anyone else will give a poop.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM

I probably will not give a poop, but you know you have perked curiosity, so what does it mean?

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:33 PM

The two largest library automation companies in the world have merged.

Probably means very little to non-librarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM

What for we need automatic libraries? Something wrong with human staff?

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM

You've got to pay them and give them benefits.

Oh, for the old days, when a library Director could make the staff work 12 hour days! Fire them on a whim! Make them grovel and plead for their pitiful pay! Require them to fire the (coal) furnace, and watch them sweat in summer and fire them if they got sick or pregnant! I've said it before and I'll say it again, the public library would be a great place to work if it wasn't for the patrons and the staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:06 PM

Not automated libraries, automated systems, IE the computers they use.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM

To Quote THE Librarian - "Oook!"

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:27 PM

Thank you for the information, but, being a non-librarian, I do not give a poop.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:16 PM

Databases, who needs databases? I don't need no steenking databases. . .

You want to check that book out? Sorry, someone else has it. You want a hold on it, and have it shipped to this here branch? Sure, let me fire up the 'puter. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:50 AM

I don't know much about library automation systems but I do know about libraries? I think they are the institutional system that denotes a highly civilized society.

Where else can you get free books?

Where else can you educate yourself regardless of social class or income?

Where else are we encouraged to become literate citizens.

If we ever lose our library systems, we are doomed.

BTW - Vancouver has a spectacular library. The architecture is amazing! It makes me proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:39 AM

Trouble is... with all this automation of things, the decline in trained staff is inevitable. This means you end up with no-one to fight for the lesser known authors, the new faces, or the old classics. Staff are picked on their ability to work a computer terminal, stack shelves and not have the audacity to fall sick or have a life. My local council got rid of 12 members of regular staff in as many months (and that doesn't include the 'natural falloff' of retirees etc). The libraries here were reduced from 10 to 8, leaving some of the poorer, outlying areas without a facility. Sure, they opened one lovely spanking new library, but it was at the cost of 2 others. And where did they situate it? In the middle of a brand new housing estate full of Yuppies and Dinks (Dual Income, No Kids), the very people least likely to use a library.

I used to love working in my library. It was small, friendly and staffed with the same people every day. We had customers whom we knew, we knew what they liked, we knew what they'd try and we knew what they meant when they said 'I read a book last year, it was blue with a lady in a long dress on the cover, do you still have it?' We had time to talk to people whilst flicking through the tickets, we had time to show people new books and we had time to spare for a chat to those who wouldn't have spoken to another person all day. Because we were there regularly, we knew the books, we knew the clientele and we knew what sort of things we could order for stock.

Then the computers came in. Suddenly, our budget was halved, to pay for the new computer system; we had to be retrained (I'm still waiting for my formal training and I left there 6 years ago!); we had to be faster, more efficient, less accurate..... The library I worked in closed down, was never replaced and now has been demolished. The next library I went to - same happened. The computer system cost so much to set up, we couldn't afford books. That closed, depriving a school of much of its resource material, a community of its meeting place and 3 people of their jobs. I got moved again. Eventually I was the only regular member of staff amongst 5 'sessional' workers who knew all about computers and nothing about literature. One didn't know who wrote 'Great Expectations' and another had read only comics.

The trend now, in our local libraries, is to go for the talking books, the audio-visual material, things that they can charge for. In England, the statute says that only books need to be free in lending libraries.... so why stock something that doesn't generate income?

Oh, and by the way.... the inter-library loan system worked perfectly well without a computer.. we could use it every day and we got the books we needed. It was called 'a letter', often accompanied by 'a phone call'.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 07:55 AM

I'd rather to a stock check with the aid of an automated system than write them all out by hand!

Interview this afternoon demanding knowledge of Heritage and TALIS as well as 'an indepth understanding of Knowledge Desk and the search engines therein'.

I have used the first, learned about the second and never heard of the last. Figers crossed!

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:03 AM

Can anybody out there enlighten this man what library automation means?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:07 AM

The computer systems that handle membership, lending & stock control in libraries, I'd guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:03 AM

As well as printing management, use of public Internet computers, cataloging, purchasing,, invoicing, billing, sending notices by post or by phone, Interlibrary Loan, et-bloody-cetra.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:26 AM

For me, as a school librarian, there's no cutdown in staffing, since I'm it. This year was my first w/ an automated catalog & circulation system. I'm still getting acquainted w/ how it works, but find that it is quicker & more accurate than my previous systems & allows me to easily do things that I tended to avoid before, like inventory & cataloging. The kids also seem to enjoy checking out books more, now that they don't need to fill out cards to get them!

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: JulieF
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:26 AM

Thanks Rapaire.   

As I have have responsibility for our Dynix system ( on the systems side rather than the library) I wonder why there's been no notification out to us British users.   Am starting to look at a major system upgrade next year so any info is useful.

J

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:32 AM

When the two biggest companies in a field merge, a near monopoly is formed. Time for smoke and mirrors, poor support, and political games. Am I correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:39 AM

Well, having worked nearly a quarter of a century with card catalogues and ledgers I can't praise the electronic systems enough. They are fast, and any change in the catalogue is efficient immediately. I started with 52 years learning to drive a computer, and I must say: I've won a lot of lifetime letting this dull slave doing my tedious menial work.
The introduction of library automation, and a reorganization of our university library system brought no cutdown in staffing, but all library work is now done by qualified librarians - a big improvement which is highly appreciated by the customers. A lot of non-librarians is now set free to keep our libraries open for a longer time: 12,5 hours, seven days in a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:58 AM

Exactly, Wilfred.

The card catalog was the most efficient product we had until the computer catalog came along. And the computer catalog, with the ability to deal with misspellings, incomplete queries, instant updating and indexing, and multiple users querying the same thing at the same time is as superior to the card catalog as the card catalog was to the book catalog.

Computers have allowed librarians to go back to being librarians, to helping the users, instead of doing endless, mind-drugging, repetitve tasks. You don't need a graduate degree to file catalog cards, but it sure comes in handy when someone asks you how to go about mummifying a squirrel (as I have been asked) or whether or not a new "artificial blood" can pass through the placental membrane (and I've been asked that, too).

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: ranger1
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM

Yeah, but I miss being able to see who read the book before me!

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:09 AM

Now I want to know how you DO mummify a squirrel...

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:29 AM

Ah, but knowing who read the book before you violates the laws on the confidentiality of patron records and is a violation of privacy. You'd have to get a warrant to find out, and no, I'm not kidding. Actually, we don't even keep that info very long any more -- a few days and then it's gone. (Even on the old hand-filled-out cards we didn't keep it -- when the sign-out card was full we ripped it up and made a new one.)

And Tracey -- first go kill a squirrel in such a way that it's not all messy. A .22 shot to the spine or poison or old age are the preferred ways; roadkill or a shotgun blast are messy and will make too much trouble. Get some natron (an impure calcium carbonate powder) and you'll need severa pounds of it. Lay the carcase out on a board, belly up. Make a small cut in the stomach just to the left of the midline and draw out the innards (all of them, including the lungs and hears); you may have to reach inside to do a good job). Wash out the body cavity several times. Then draw the brains out either through the nose or via the removal of on the upper vertebra at the back of the head. Wash out the skull cavity, too. Pack these cavities natron and bury the whole mess in natron for a few weeks. (Oh, yeah -- put the innards you removed into canopic jars; don't worry about the brain, which came out in little pieces, because brains aren't important). After a few weeks dig the body, which now should be dried, out of the natron (which will have hardened from the body liquids) and pack the cavities with rolls of linen soaked in cedar oil. Carefully mold the features of the squirrel back into shape, and wrap the whole thing in linen bandages (don't forget the amulets and sacred signs on the bandage as you're rolling). Put it into a sarcophagus under a pyramid for a few thousand years.

That's sort of the gist of it. Herodotus has a good description, except don't don't don't use a soaking of natron dissolved in water; Herry got that part wrong. If you soak the squirrel in a natron solution you'll be very, very sorry.

(Warning: squirrel brains have been found to transmit Crutchfield-Jakobs Disease, so be careful. And above all, don't eat the brains on toast.)

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 09:38 AM

We still have one active card catalog going at UTA. I discovered it recently, when one of the librarians had to move from one office to another, and didn't have room for this inside the new office. It's the million or so cards that serve the government documents he manages. His eyes roll back in his head when you suggest converting that to a computer database.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:33 AM

Govdoc librarians are very, very, very, very, very strange people. They speak Sudoc and hardly anyone can undestand them. Usually, they gather in small defensive groups and fling old copies of The Federal Register at onlookers. Whenever they go to meetings, ALA Rules state that they must dress in white from the crown of their head to their toes, ring a small bell, and shout "Unclean! Unclean!" whenever someone approaches. If they fail to do this they are banished forever to the Bibliography Department where they spend eternity comparing the holdings of the library to old bookstore catalogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Kaleea
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:53 AM

Why don't we get an opinion from the First Lady?

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 07:55 AM

Thank you, Rapaire! Next time I feel an insurmountable urge to mummify something, I'll be well prepared...

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

Web based Library system ad below sez. it allows you to automate your library for $1 a day - I wonder how many days a million card index would take!!

Our consultants had a wonderful card index, put together over the years by staff & when it was transferred to a database by scanning & indexing all the cards it took months of intensive work to do so. It was called Indra's cards after the instigator who was continually adding to it.

Then someone worked out a name for it so Indra's cards can still be INDRA's cards (Index of whatever) so that when he eventually retires his hard work will be remembered.

Typing records into the database is not as interesting as writing on 3x5 cards, there's no personality, the cards were a record of past staff, database records are anonymous.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:18 AM

SiS, I've seen catalog cards that were handwritten. Records of things long gone. But the "library hand" was a standardized penmanship taught in library schools until, in some cases, the 1930s.

Why? you ask, when the typewriter had been in use for quite a few years. Well, in the US, the American Library Association didn't "approve" the use of the typewriter for catalog cards until around 1935. ALA wasn't sure of the permanency of the ink from the ribbons, you see....

By 1971, when the Ohio College Library Center (OCLC) began printing vast numbers of catalog cards by computer, ALA had finally realized that while the catalog card had to last a while, they were in no way permanent. Something to do with libraries "weeding" stuff and pulling out the cards -- they made great scrap paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:19 AM

shhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 10:38 AM

The Associate Director of our university library hates to throw out anything, so those old cards from the regular catalog have been her notecards for ages. As long as what she has to say fit on just the back side she's set!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

In the 1970's and again in the 1980's I worked in public libraries. Now when I go to the library, I am dismayed at how disorganized the books are and how hard it is to find books on a topic. Rarely do I undertake a search on the computer without being moved to swear words.

For example, I was looking for a book of knitting patterns. Within six inches on the shelf, I found a book of knitting patterns, a book on the ready-to-wear knit fashion industry, a biography of Calvin Klein and an expose (it claimed) of Ralph Lauren. I'm sure this was the result of using computerized systems to catalog books.

Last week I looked up "sew clothes" and was given 8 books about sewerage systems instead. Maybe they thought they were providing the real poop on fitting techniques.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:28 AM

subject "archeology" found no matches in the library you searched.

See what I mean!? Do you believe that the library system in a city of 1,000,000 people does not have any books on archeology?

This is what comes of putting our libraries in the hands of people who wear baseball caps backwards and spent their childhoods playing Space Invaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:50 PM

Could it be that you have to search under "archaeology"? I found 16 titles under "archeology" at my local library, including the video of The Mummy. I found 257 titles under "archaeology." Oh, and I found 132 titles under "sewing" and only one under "sew clothes." This is in a system of small-town libraries. The county seat has 12,000 people.

It's true that manual card catalogs have some advantages over computerized searches - especially for people who can't spell or can't think of appropriate keywords. It takes a new way of thinking to find things with a computer.

It's also true that computers give managers an excuse for staff reduction - but managers will always find ways to understaff and overload. Good libraries with good philosophies and good management won't suffer staffing shortages because of computers. If your library is understaffed, don't blame it on computers - it's management that's responsible.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:51 PM

Databases that are more forgiving of spelling errors are coming, we encounter them every so often. Google and other search engines will ask "Don't you mean archaeology?" when you type in archeology. I think Amazon is set up that way. But most of them see a misspelling as something to ignore, not an opportunity to triangulate on what you really meant to type in. That's why I have a two-fold system. I have a little speller's dictionary (book) next to the computer, but if I'm in a real hurry I just type the word into the Google bar at the top of the page and see what it suggests. It isn't always right either, so in that case the book casts the overriding vote.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:08 AM

next to my mouse is a pad of flimsies. I don't have used catalogue cards for notes, I have unused flimsies. I recently scrounged the last box as it was heading to the shredder in our cleanup. Zillions of little notes can be made over the next few years/decades/remainder of my life.

SRS - I also have an old Oxford dictionary at work, (1935, r/p 1964) that I use in conjunction with Spellcheck.


sandra

for the uninitiated, flimsies are pads of paper catalogue slips used for writing catalogue entries so the typist - remember them? - could create the catalogue card.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:29 AM

A good compouter system will have a way to cross-check bad spelling. The one we put in in 1989 we programmed with such things as "Dec" and "Desember" crossed to "December" and "Feburary" to "February." There is, however, no way that we could figure all possible spelling variations.

As for searching "sew clothes," did you try "sew" or "sew*"? Were you searching a keyword search or one that required exact matches? Title or Subject index? (And libraries had split their card catalogs into seperate Author, Title, Subject catalogs for a very, very long time.)

It would also help if I knew which automation system was being used -- some are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than others.

Of course, if all else fails, ask a librarian. I promise that we won't call the media about your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 12:42 AM

The Spell-check Poem

I have a spelling checker;
It came with my PC.
It plainly marks four my revue
Mistakes I can knot sea.
I've run this poem threw it;
I'm sore your please too no,
It's letter perfect in its weigh,
My checker tolled me sew.

source

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 04:02 AM

Sorry, but the best computer system in the world cannot get up from the counter and pull the book off the shelf for you. Our system (Dynix, by the way) was so full of glitches that you could never guarantee that the book you were enqiring for had actually been published, let alone purchased and catalogued.

I worked in cataloguing for about a year. My first 3 weeks there were spent correcting the spelling mistakes that the computer had allowed through. The next 3 weeks were correcting spelling mistakes that my colleagues had made.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:07 AM

$hite, Sandra, you use a BOOK ??

You must not be aware that everything, absolutely EVERYTHING worth knowing is available "on-line".

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:24 AM

For anyone at concerned about the future of libraries, I suggest reading
Chris Dodge's Knowledge For Sale: Are American Libraries Losing Their Way? in the July/August 2005 issue of Utne magazine [yeah, hard copy, EGAD!- but should be available on-line at http://www.utne.com shortly.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

Greg, I'm old fashioned, give me a book anyday, computers & the Internet are wonderful, of course (where would I be without Mudcat) but they ain't sources of all knowledge.

I work for a Federal Govt agency & we are always receiving emails & phone calls wanting the URL of info, or complaining they can't find something on our website. Very few folk want pamphlets any more. They are usually surprised to find out that we do not collect all information on all subjects (No, we don't have cameras on street corners, or anywhere for that matter, so did not see your tall, distinctively dressed friend knocked down in a hit & run accident; No. we don't know how many toilet flushes there are daily across Oz; No; we have no idea what dietary advice teenagers get in your local area, nor do we know how closely they follow it) and that we do not keep all our info on our website.

Maybe those of us who work in Libraries/Info areas can share similar inquiries. I have a huge list at work.


sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 12:20 PM

Re your list, what's the URL?

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 03:14 PM

Rapaire notes:

A good compouter system will have a way to cross-check bad spelling.

A common check is the "sounds like" search. When the few indexes with this feature first appeared, they made it sound like they had something really special; but it usually is accomplished simply by deleting all the vowels in the search string the user puts in. You need a crosslinked "unvowelled" list to search, and it's almost mandatory that the system be able to display multiple returns so the user can narrow it down. Unfortunately, users can still enter gypographic erros, and will still blame the librarian when they can't find what they want.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:04 PM

LtS, I can only say, "Garbage in, garbage out." GIGO was true in the past and is just as true now. And there's not a lot you can do if those inputting the garbage don't care (except get rid of them).

I'm very appreciative of the Utne reference and I intend to 1) read it and, 2) share it with my colleagues in the 2020 Vision Library Think Tank. That's a group of folks invited to help plan the course for Idaho libraries (academic, school, public, etc.) for 2020 and beyond.

As for the "sale" of libraries, well -- as you know, knowledge is poison, especially to those in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 09:03 AM

And the BuShites certainly seem to be winning the War On Knowledge, which they are prosecuting much more forcefully & successfully than the one on "terrorism".

Hey, if you can't beat 'em- BUY 'EM! The American Way.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM

URL - wazzat?

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 09:38 AM

I haven't read the Utne link yet (just now got back online after a line was cut and I'm catching up) so apologies if this is redundnat, but I want to add this observation:

There are lots of library jobs out there, good ones, and they're harder and harder to fill. Wanna know why? Because librarians are in demand in other non-library settings. They're in demand in many of the support services and in many companies that want people with computer and librarians skills (since their computer folks didn't get the library skills when THEY went to school for their computer skills). And many of those businesses can pay more substantial salaries.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 09:43 AM

When my manager finished her Library & Information Science degree several years back one of her friends got a job with a cancer research organisation - not in the library.

Subject: RE: BS: Only Librarians Will Care....
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 05:11 PM

More and more library school grads are being snagged by Google and similar orgainzations. Why? -- because private companies have realized that if you want to index knowledge, heck, librarians have been doing it for years and years and years.

Try to hire a Children's Librarian (as I have). Try to find a library school that even suggests children's work as a career to incoming students.

I think it was in 1975 when I won a bet. I bet the CEO of smallish company that I could find out enough information about a business leader of his choice that, were I a terrorist (and no, the concept isn't new), I could "take out" that person. He chose the President of BF Goodrich. Two days later I collected the ten bucks -- I had the man's: business address, HOME address, clubs to which he belonged, boards of corporations and nonprofits of which he was a member, HOME phone number, and more. And similar info on his wife. And I did this using ONLY the resources (and NO computer! check the date) available in a small (35,000 volumes), rural public library.