BS: Flag burning......yes or no?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:22 PM

Flag burning is less hazardous than underwear burning. Accordingly, I am in favour of it. I can't see why people should not burn a flag if they want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:21 PM

If a husband and wife have a fight and one of them brings out the marriage certificate and burns it, it makes a powerful statement about that person's sentiments but the act has not, in and of itself, affected the validity of the marriage- they can always get another copy of the contract. I would say, though, that it does indicate that the marriage has problems that need to be addressed.

So it is with a flag and the nation it represents.

I would add that whether one can legitimately burn or harm someone else's flag, or 'holy' book, it depends on who it is. If I'm on my home turf but want to express my displeasure with Muslim adherents I might be justified in burning the Koran. I had better NOT do it while I'm on their turf. Kind of like making disparaging remarks about one's sibling but fighting to the bloody end when someone else does it.

By and large, the strongest statement is made by someone protesting their own situation. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: MMario
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM

Peace - the flag most certainly does *NOT* represent the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

Countries should pay attention when its citizens attack its symbols. As Dianavan said, regardless of the effectiveness of flag burning, the activity does show that those who do it feel 'separated' from the processes of their country; powerless to do anything else. The flag represents the White House, and maybe that's what's being burnt in the hearts and minds of those with symbols and matches. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

Man, if you could get all the liberals in the US to burn US flags all on the same day I would even find a way to chip in for any expenses you might, as a group incur. I would LOVE it if you all burned flags -- the bigger the spectacle the better!

*making mental note to find flag company to invest in -- the few who might actually have a flag to burn will need to replace 'em and the others will need one to burn!* *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Flag burning is for those who feel that they have no say.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:03 PM

It strikes me that burning the flag as a means of protest is sort of an empty gesture. It makes a lot of people mad, often to the point where they don't hear what you're really protesting about, and miss the point entirely. Also, it sometimes alienates people who otherwise woulde have agreed with you.

If you have something to say, say it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:49 PM

I've never burned a flag but it does make a pretty strong statement.

Seems to me the 4th of July would be a good time to do it. Of course it would only work if half the country did it to protest the loss of freedom under the present administration.

Maybe we could send a shipment of U.S. flags to Iraq. I wonder how long it would take the Iraqis to burn each and every one of them?

I guess you would say, at present, I advocate the burning of the flag but would never do it myself. Hats off to those who have the courage to make the statement. Yes, it is a valid form of political expression, especially when voting irregularities are so blatant.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 11:05 AM

Happy Fourth of July to you, Kendall!

I think we still have enough scrap lumber in the workshop for our afternoon BBQ and lots of newspaper. So there's no real need to even consider lighting up a flag.

I remember how once, back in the Pleistocene, in rural Michigan a good friend was reported to the authorities for flying a suspicious flag on his front lawn. It was the UN flag. Who knows what subversive cause they thought it represented. The sheriff's department was quite polite as they interviewed my old friend.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM

Slight digression- What about burning the cross? Is it more or less of a symbol than the flag?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM

As IO understand it, the status of the Koran for Muslims is much more akin to the status of the Torah Scrolls for Orthodox Jews, rather than it is to the way Christians traditionally have regarded the Bible. There are some significant differences between the sister religions on things like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,jpk
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:46 PM

acording to the more liberated of our country,burning the bible is ok but burning the koran might hurt a poor muslim.hell don't bother with wasting time on a non issue

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:14 PM

Yeah, MofH, I guess that's part of what I meant earlier when I said that I am absolutely for flag burning remaining legal.

As a symbol it is SO bad that those associated with the burning end up looking as manic as book-burners. In the end I believe they do their cause more harm than good.

It's WAY too easy -- even for fairly literate, well-reasoned folks -- to conclude anti-Americanism with flag burning. Once that association is visually burned into the public consciousness (by flag burning) it is MIGHTY hard to try to turn back around and try to explain that you really have the country's best interests at heart -- you're really a patriot. It just won't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 02:06 PM

The analogy between flags and holy books is a bit strained. Flags are not sacred, and nor are nations, and you have to watch out for people with who think they are.

But there is an analogy, in that anyone burning a flag or a holy book as a symbolic gesture should be aware that there are people out there who might feel quite justified in killing them for doing that. Not a good idea. And not a good symbol either.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:44 PM

...which I guess I can answer my own question. Graffiti involves destruction of property. A crime. So you can burn your own flag, but not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

I guess I was thinking more of the prosecutions of things like graffiti as hate crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:21 PM

Guest JH - Yes I can see a logical consistancy between the two. If the difference is between causing harm to an object { a flag or a book } vs causing harm to a person { one of "them" }. One is free speech - the other is violence to a human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:52 AM

That question at least causes one to pause and think: Can one, with logical consistancey, be FOR the right to burn flags and Bibles and Korans and yet also be FOR hate crimes laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 11:17 AM

How about burning a bible or a Koran? Same arguments or different stance?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 11:35 PM

I like the idea of flag burning being legal. As an image it is as damaging to a cause as it is satisfying to the one burning a flag.

It draws/illustrates really good, strong lines in the public debate and I like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 09:54 PM

Just a creepy thought; if (1)a given individual can be charged for wearing a shirt with a flag image, because the authorities surmise that his reasons for wearing it are objectionable, and (2) supposing
that this amendment should pass, with it's undefined reference to "desecration", then...

(3) What is to prevent prosecution of someone who carries an actual flag in a demonstration for what the authorities consider to be an inappropriate, "un-American" cause?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 09:50 PM

Ahhhh, Donuel, you've raised an intersting and major Consititutional question which is best left up the 5-4 Supremes to ponder....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM

Bobert wut about them nascars that gotta little US flag painted onem? When they crash an burn do they go to jail too?

Xcackly wut is desecration? USA flag bikinis on a skinny girl? or fat girl? US flag bath towels? underwear? stepping on a lapel pin?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: jpk
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:46 PM

to hell with the flag bit how about bulldozing my house for a new burger king[i dont want to sell but the supreme court said it was ok to kick me out].

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Col K
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 07:06 PM

Why not burn a flag, you may get some heat from it if you are cold.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: heric
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 07:04 PM

Some guy somewhere on the internet made what seems to be a pretty good point. An almost-flag or flag-like-thing, such as a patch or a towel, is NOT a "Flag" as defined by law (somewhere).

You could sell and make some bucks on faux-flags for burning, e.g., with one star out of place.

It really has to be that way, I would think, or you could never remove your flag bumper sticker?

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM

And, THAT is a real country.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Frankham
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:14 PM

I saw a great comment in the local letters to the editor paper.

"The reason I don't want to burn the flag is because I live in a country where I could if I wanted to."

Now that's real patriotism.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM

Larry Flynt. Ya might not agree with his porn, but ya gotta agree with his priciples. Make a hell of a president.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:27 PM

Larry Flint wore the American Flag best

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 01:09 PM

The proposed Constitutional amendment would give both Congress and the states the authority to prohibit "the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." That would create an enormous area for interpretation by the legislative bodies (Congress and state legislatures), by the enforcement authorities (US Department of Justice, state Attorneys-General, local District Attorneys, state and local police), and by the courts. Flag washing could very well be construed as illegal, at least in some jurisdictions. So could the wearing of flag patches, particularly if on the seat of the pants or on the crotch.

Remember that Abbie Hoffman was once arrested in Washington, DC, for wearing an American flag T-shirt he bought in a department store. Abbie's lawyer, Bill Kunstler, argued that this was a case of selective prosecution because Roy Rogers and Dale Evans had recently worn similar T-shirts in Washington, but were not busted. The judge, however, ruled that the contexts of wearing the American flag T-shirts were different. In other words, Roy and Dale wore theirs as part of a patriotic concert, so it was OK. Abbie wore his while protesting a subpeona to appear before a Congressional committee investigating the antiwar movement, so the very same act was illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 08:56 AM

Pete's idea is an intriguing one, but a little late. At this point I don't think they'd EVER get the stains and filth out.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:50 AM

Pete Seeger suggests that an appropriate form of political protest would be washing the American flag. I can just see our Congress outlawing flag washing.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:32 PM

Hmmm. Yes and no.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:27 PM

In Lancashire, flags are pavements. Not easily burned.

Everybody move to Lancashire - end of the controvery.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

this is a none issue really.when something as minor as this over shadowes something such as the major theft of what little property rights we had left[handed to the crooks on a silver plater by the high court,with a fox gaurding the hen house grin]maybe,we need to pass an amendment to fly the flag upside down[means in distress,trouble,need help]till we throw all the corrupt pol's, lawyers,judges,bankers,[carpet baggers in modern disguise]out on there collective asses

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:15 AM

It must be strange to pledge allegnce (spelling I know) to a bit of cloth, but mind you in certain countries they do strange things like voting for an nutcase to be president or Prime minster.

If you feel angry or whatever that you must burn your country's flag then do so after it is a freedom of expression.

but if you don't want to burn your country's flag then don't.

After all it is just a peice of cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM

Uncle_DaveO 24 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM

You have stated my opinion exactly.

IMO, ANY constitutional amendment should be voted on, left in limbo for, say, 30 years, and then voted on again. Then it should be put aside until anyone who voted for it is dead, and voted on again. If it is still around, PERHAPS it should be implemented. Cautiously.

I have stated this in other threads.


8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 11:11 PM

Seems every time the Repubs think they need top recahrge their loyal NASCASR?Budweiser/CountryMusic crowwd they bring this tired horse outta the barn fir yet one more lap... It is so predictable of them.... Like who cares about flag burnin' other than rednecks... No one is really out there burnin' flags... It's a non-issue that Repubs use to rile up rednecks...

Good on them... Is that what they are about??? Rilin' up a bunch of ignorant rednecks???? Sounds like Germany in the 30's when the Nazis carged up the brownshirts...

And NO.... I'm not going to apologize fir that statement 'cause it's absolutely TRUE.....

But good on you, Hub... Yer one thr correct side of this issue... Maybe different reasons but the correct side.... Notice I didn't say "right" side...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:46 PM

Flag is a symbol, remember?

By Reggie Rivers

DenverPost.com

http://denverpost.com/rivers/ci_2806816

The U.S. flag means a great deal to nearly all Americans. Military
veterans have strong emotional ties to the flag as a symbol of their
service; politicians believe that children will be better citizens if
they pledge allegiance to the flag; most Americans would be outraged
if a flag were desecrated in a public setting; and, after Sept. 11,
the flag was a ubiquitous symbol of our national unity.

However, the flag is not without its problems. It seems that too many
Americans have forgotten that the U.S. flag is merely a symbol of our
ideals - it is not the actual embodiment of them.

Totalitarian leaders have been notorious for treating symbols as if
they were real, arresting people who disrespected them. But in the
United States, we enjoy broad political freedom partly because we
separate symbolic activities from actual threats. If you want to cut
out a picture of George W. Bush in The Denver Post and throw darts at
it, the Secret Service will not arrest you.

However, in the case of the flag, the distinction between the symbol
and reality is murky. Many people would rush forward and punch anyone
who was harming a flag. Many Americans would react as if the flag
were a small child that needed to be rescued, and that's not normal.

I believe many traditions are feeding our confusion about what the
flag means and how much protection it needs.

This week, we observed Flag Day, June 14. It's a little odd to
recognize a symbol in this way, but Flag Day by itself would be
fairly benign. What's more troublesome is that we have a national
anthem that is entirely about the flag; we pledge our allegiance to
the flag itself; and the proposed Flag Desecration Amendment could
turn symbolic acts into crimes.

Destroying your own flag would be like printing a big letter "S" and
burning it. You wouldn't do harm to the alphabet by destroying this
"S" nor would you harm any words that used the letter. You would do
no harm to the English language, yet if you did the same thing with a
flag, people would erupt in violence.

If a man in North Korea were arrested for stomping on a newspaper
photo of Kim Jong Il, we would condemn his arrest as a form of
political repression. However, if a man in Denver were arrested for
stomping on a U.S. flag that he purchased at Wal-Mart, many of us
would not recognize it as political repression. Many would say it's
OK to arrest a man for harming a flag, because we've forgotten that
the flag is a symbol.

The Christian Lord knew that humans were prone to this type of
confusion, so his Second Commandment called for a moratorium on idol
worship. We should heed this commandment.

Instead of amending our Constitution - as House Joint Resolution 10
and Senate Joint Resolution 12 seek to do - we should change our
pledge. It should read: "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of
the United States of America ... ." That way, our kids will pledge
their allegiance to our ideals, not a cloth symbol.

We should also change our national anthem. The song's first verse -
the only one we normally sing - is entirely about the flag. If you
look at the lyrics and replace references to the flag with
descriptions of Britney Spears, it is instantly clear that the song
is about an object, not ideals.

The American flag is a wonderful symbol, and it is important for us
to maintain it in our society. However, it's clear that the flag has
become more important than the ideals that it symbolizes, so in the
name of democracy, we have to shift our focus. We can't allow our
loyalty to the flag to trump our allegiance to the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:38 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/Ammendment.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:27 PM

The science behind flag burning

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:42 PM

when a flag is old and tattered and near death its recommended disposal
is to destroy it by fire.

the Republicans have included a new bill that will allow old flags to be
kept on artificial life support indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:03 PM

"...criminalize stupidity."? Apparently, you'd be the only human left on the planet. Have fun by yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:58 PM

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:26 PM

Stupidity is not and never should be a felony.

Considering the amount of suffering, pain and death it causes, I beg to differ.

First degree criminal stupidity should be a capital crime & I for one would wholeheartedly support Congress in passing legislation that would criminalize stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: jpk
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:35 PM

that means there say so er there ok

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: jpk
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:34 PM

sorry beadie but no i didn't, the people part has gotten lost somewhere along the way[maybe between hell and high water]but the rest of your obsevation can fit in very well.thank you for the insight.btw have a nice day and god bless.[till they say we can't have those without there sufferage]

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: beadie
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:21 PM

I think, jpk, that you meant "government of the people, by the paid-off politicians, for the corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Flag burning......yes or no?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:13 PM

I think that it is simply "feel good" legislation that would serve absolutely no good purpose and could do a great deal of harm.

troll