Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....

Subject: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:41 PM

Came across this on Southern American English......nice to know that while we got kicked out of the US over 200 years ago our regional UK accents still persist. Therefore there must be some culture left in GWB........

SAE.....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:14 PM

Thanks for that interesting article.

As to this point:
"With regartAs After the war, and especially after 1970, migration to Southern cities was as likely to come from the North as the South.."

One thing that the article didn't mention is the significant numbers of African Americans who are moving to the South. Some are moving 'back' to the South {to the states where their ancestors lived}. But some {like me} have no known Southern relatives and are still moving to the South. Atlanta, Ga -in particular- is a favored city for African Americans from the East and Midwest...But my sister, and other family members recently moved to North Carolina and Virginia.

This is also going to have some affect on Southern dialect.

****

And BTW, that article mentioned African American Vernacular English {which for a time was called 'Ebonics'}. Just for the record, I want to note that not all African Americans speak African American Vernacular English.

But some of the time some folks-like me-conciously will mix some contemporary Hip-Hop ways of talking with traditional Ebonics.

That way we can get get our talk off in a bilingual way just to add more flava to the mix, yaknowwhatumsayin?

It ain't about bein jive-it's about being real.
Cause it bes that way some time.



Azizi


Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:27 PM

Well as usual, I messed that up.."Typos here typos there, typos typos everywhere"...And even a double Azizi...well I'll be!

And just for the record, No. I'm not moving South...

Sorry for those mistakes. I hope that y'all got my drift inspite of them.

Peace!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:35 PM

Reckon ah did.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:47 AM

I live where the South, West and Midwest meet (or collide). Believe me, there are many different "Southern accents." A person from Texas doesn't sound like a person from Tennessee, and a person from South Carolina doesn't sound like a person from Tennessee.

Many southerners have beautiful speech, and I like to listen to it.

I bet most non-southerners get their ideas of the South from TV and movies, most of which are made (and acted in) by non-southerners.

The other web site mentioned "Dukes of Hazzard," a show I watched once. I really had to laugh at the sight of the pick-up truck tootling along while the banjo played. Instead of driving through the lush, beautiful landscape of the south, it was barreling down a dusty road in the barren, scrubby desert of southern California. Oh well, it was cheaper to do it that way.

The site mentioned pen/pin. That's why some people have to say "stick pin" vs "ink pin".

Going the other way, I have a Battlefield Band album where Alan Reid sings;

It's oot the barn and o'er the hell (hill)
Through the dark and there's the stell (still)...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:05 AM

Azizi, I read a book on English 'History of English' some time ago. It is in storage in the UK so I cannot give you the author. It was about the historical development of English and was very readable.

In the later chapters it did go into the influence of the changes introduced by people of African origin on US and Caribean English.

There is also some speculation in that book that the Australian accent is one that derives from 18th & 19th century English.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:42 AM

One crazy thing I found out is that about half of folks born & raised in my native Oklahoma are of Irish descent, and my ancestors on both sides of my family have been in the States for well over 200 years.
The oldtimey way of speaking that my Irish grandparents & many folks in Oklahoma have is somewhat like some of the folks more I've known who came over from Ireland in more recent years. Most Okies of my generation have heard their parents use words which are Irish-we just didn't know it. For example, most everyone I grew up with heard their parents tell about the shivaree their friends & family gave them. But then, I've also heard older folks from Tennessee, Virginia & other states talk about a shivaree, too.
   Most all Okies I came up with say "Ah'm fixin' ta git me sumthin' tuh eat!" Some even say ". . .finntuh . . ."   But it does make me nuts to hear some feller say, "Ah'mo tak'n git me sum'mmtuheet."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:27 AM

My Missouri-born grandmother was of full German descent. Her speech was part-Midwest twang and part-Southern drawl (to paraphrase Dorothea Lange), but she occasionally used German words and syntax. Her cooking was equal parts hillbilly and Bavarian as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:49 PM

There is little worse than a phoney southern accent! Tom Hanks is a prime example.

Hillbilly and Bavarian, sounds lethal...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:13 PM

One thing I find rather interesting is my paternal granparents' accents.

My paternal grandmother came to the US from Bermuda as an adult. My paternal grandfather came to the US from Canada (New Brunswick) as an adult. They lived in Massachussettes (Framingham) for two or three decades and then settled in rural Virginia (Troy).

My grandfather and grandmother's native accents had some interesting similarities with the accents that many rural Virginians have. They all pronounce "house", "mouse", "about" and words like that almost exactly the same.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:44 PM

There were a two guys in the Blarney Stone the other week, both genuine born and bred Newfies and under their Canadian accent your could hear a lovely Scottish burr. BTW I am not saying a Canadian accent is bad.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:20 PM

I first came to Canada over 50 years ago. At the time, some Canadians tended towards 'oot' in about and similar words. I can't speak for the Maritimes or Newfoundland, but that pronunciation has disappeared from Toronto west. Quite homogenized now (TV influence?)

As a geologist, I did fieldwork in many parts of Canada and the U. S. It was very interesting, listening to the different accents and word usages. The only place I had trouble understanding what people were saying was in southwestern Indiana, where southern accents (I agree, Leeneia, there are many southern accents) mixed with those of other regions. That was some time ago, and accents there probably have become homogenized as well.
In an old magazine, however, I read an article by an Englishman who had traveled widely in the States. He complained that Americans spoke a common language, with few of the interesting variations found in the British Isles.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:54 PM

Shanghaiceltic, Newfoundland has its own dialect, and many, very different accents within that dialect. But they are all very different from most Canadian accents. There are some similarities with some of the other Atlantic provinces, but anyone from those provinces can easily tell one from the other. In the Newfoundland accents, you can clearly hear similarities to various accents originally from Ireland and England that are now no longer in use in those places.

Q, I know a guy from Edmonton who uses the "aboot" pronounciation. He's in his early forties, I think. That was the one my grandfather and grandmother used, and also my aunt (father's brother's wife) who was born and raised in Virginia. There's a very slight difference... a tiny bit more of a lilt in the Virginia pronounciation... a bit like a cross between "hoose" and "hice", but it's a very small difference.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:45 AM

Well, English had more than 50 (I think) variations, because few travelled outside their own, small area. In America you had people from all over thrown together.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:28 AM

And, then we move around...pick up stuff from where ever we live.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

Many years ago, my wife nagged me into pronouncing pen and pin so that the difference could be heard. After reading the posted article, I was delighted to be able to tell her she's a Yankee cultural imperialist. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM

Re: "In an old magazine, however, I read an article by an Englishman who had traveled widely in the States. He complained that Americans spoke a common language, with few of the interesting variations found in the British Isles."

Let's not forget the distinction between language and dialect. All English speakers speak a common language. They might have to slow down a bit to understand one another, but it's still a common language.

As for the widely-travelled Englishman, unless he stopped and stayed every few hundred miles, unless he visited rich and poor, and unless he participated in many informal gatherings where people "let their hair down", then he hasn't really experienced the dialects of America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM

"In an old magazine, however, I read an article by an Englishman who had traveled widely in the States. He complained that Americans spoke a common language, with few of the interesting variations found in the British Isles."

H.L. Mencken made a similar claim, and Vance Randolph just about took him apart with examples of regional dialect from the Ozark, including an extended passage that would likely have been completely incomprehensible to 'Grumpius Germanicus'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

Interesting article. Cheers, Shang. The only bit at which I pause critically is where it says:

For instance, for most Southerners "I might could leave work early today" is a grammatically acceptable sentence. It translates roughly as "I might be able to leave work early," but might could conveys a greater sense of tentativeness than might be able does. The use of multiple modals provides Southerners with a politeness strategy not available in other regional dialects.

This is only a "politeness strategy" if they routinely use "might be able" alongside "might could" in the relative terms described. Equally, it is only more tentative *if*... Otherwise "MC" is either a dialectal replacement or synonym for "MBA". The article implies the former, but doesn't actually state that it is so, nor give any evidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:01 PM

Here's a very interesting article on African American English .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM

Also see this Dialect Map of American English.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:31 PM

Interesting article, Azizi. I've noticed, too, that a lot of young people who are not African Americans are adopting many aspects of AAE, presumably because of its significant presence in popular culture, in particular, popular music.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:48 PM

CarolC, I agree. Rap and other forms of Af-Am popular music are spreading AAVE, not only to non-African-Americans, but to African-Americans far from the population centers where it is well-known. A few African-Americans here, in western Canada, are trying out a bit of that vernacular, albeit with grins and somewhat self-conciously. Their origins are Caribbean and African, without backgrounds in the United States.

Dialect in America was well-understood by Mencken, and English writers as well, but the statement was true that the dialects were understandable and formed part of a common language. Randolph may have found a few pockets of dialectical extremes, but there is nothing of the problems that would have faced an American, regardless of his regional origin, who was trying to understand Glaswegian. Especially since the WW2 era, dialects in North America have lost their meat, although the 'trimmings' remain. I am sure that since WW2, dialects in Great Britain also are less pronounced, and, as Leeneia suggests, "all English speakers speak a common language ... might have to slow down a bit..." My own experience in parts of the British Isles 50-60 years ago would argue against this having been the case in parts of northern England and parts of Scotland at that time. Speaking of that time, I would agree with Mencken that "English is more emphatically one in America than in its native land"

Azizi, is the type of African-American vernacular in the music and on the street partly based on an attempt to develop communication that is apart from that of white 'standard' culture? You may have answered this before.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:05 PM

That's interesting, Q. Do the (western) Canadians with Caribbean and African origins have a distinctive vernacular already, or do they have the same accents and vernacular as Canadians with other backgrounds?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

Q,

with regards to African Americans developing new words and sayings in "an attempt to develop communication that is apart from that of white 'standard' culture"...hmmm. I don't know. But I do think that we seem have a tendency to tire of slang terms much sooner than White people {think "That's cool"} and we appear to quickly retire those words and substitute new words when our old words are picked up by mainstream culture which is ever alert for these expressions.

Tnis may be words that we created [such as 'bling bling'] or words and phrases that we pronounce differently [like 'Whaaaasup?!] or a new way of saying something using old words or numbers [like "24-7"].

IMO, African Americans create words & sayings for the love of the spoken word. We have been socialized to like word play and to be creative about word usage. This is not something new, but comes from traditional African culture and speaks to the importance of Nommo {Word power}.

African authors such as Chinua Achebe write about the status that traditionally was given to good speakers. In "Mules And Men" and other books, Zora Neil Hurston,the African American anthropologist documented the culture of 'lying' or telling tall tales among 'country' African Americans. And most people are at least somewhat familiar with 'signifyin'", "cappin'", "dissin", "jonin", and other terms that are used for The Dozens, that contest of insults which not only depends on the opponents keeping their 'cool', but also is a means by which two people {usually of the same sex} show off their verbal skills.

I agree that Black languaging is found among non-Black people. But I don't think that this is anything new.

What I do think is new {or at least dating from the beginnning of Hip-Hop culture} is the importance given to the visual representation of language. I see examples of this in the way that more and more [African American] personal names use accent marks, or hypens, capitol letters. Like the male names "DeAndre", "De-Andre", and "DeAndre'"...

With regards to African Americans developing new words and sayings in "an attempt to develop communication that is apart from that of white 'standard' culture"...hmmm. I don't know. But I do think that we seem have a tendency to tire of slang terms much sooner than White people {think "That's cool"} and we appear to quickly retire those words and substitute new words when our old words are picked up by mainstream culture which is ever alert for these expressions.

Tnis may be words that we created [such as 'bling bling'] or words and phrases that we pronounce differently [like 'Whaaaasup?!] or a new way of saying something using old words or numbers [like "24-7"].

So the bottom line is that I think that our use of words and phrases is all about creativity. I think that this is much more important than any attempt to differentiate ourselves from others.



Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:40 PM

Sorry for the poor cut and paste job-

{I really mean it and don't just mean "It bes that way sometimes".

For me, it is many more times than need be.

My bad.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:49 PM

There is only one English language TV channel here in China CCTV9 and over the years I have noticed that the newsreaders are developing a more and more BBC type recieved English accent. Many would not be out of place in an Eton common room.

Whereas in the UK it is regional accents that are more likely to be heard today but not regional words/phrases. I was smiling to myself at the thought of a newscast being delivered in pure Geordie, Brummie, Scouse, Lowland, Highland, West Coast or East Coast Scottish with all the phrases that are common in those languages.

I can usualy tell with who a Chinese has studied English, very quickly you can hear the British English and American English accents and pronunciation. A friend's wife who is from Shanghai has the lovliest Scottish accent and phrasing, a result of 5 years at Strathclyde Uni.

I can now also tell if a person is from Guangzhou area, Beijing or even Shanghai by the accent and pronunciation of their Chinese.

Having worked overseas for many years I find languages and pronunciation very interesting as well as the roots of the language.

Sadly my wife Jade has picked up bad Anglo-Saxon from me and knows how to intone the words for various affects ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:50 PM

Your description of the African American creative attitude about language, Azizi, sounds quite a lot like the attitude Newfoundlanders have. My husband is from Newfoundland (which was a separate country from Canada prior to 1949). I have been trying to learn how to use some of the easier spoken rythms and word pronounciations of some of the Newfoundland vernacular, and I find it extremely challenging. For one thing, because it's a very complex vernacular, but also because it is very different from anything I have ever heard before, and has very different rythms.

My husband does encourage me and he is kind about my slow progress, but he has told me a few times (only partially joking) that just about the time I get it mastered, they'll go and change it, because they're always creating new words and phrases and ways to say things. In fact, he says there is some degree of competition about it among Newfoundlanders.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:31 PM

That's interesting Carol. I agree that rhythm is an important part of 'languaging'. Also I think that ethnic groups {if not races} have sound preferences that IMO are much more 'nuture' and have very little if anything to do with 'nature'.

With African Americans these sound preferences are reflected in the popularity of certain personal names. The 'sha' {or 'cha'} sound {"Shante'"; "Shadaya"; "Shakira" are very 'hot' now for females {and have been for at least 20 years}. For males the "aun" sound is very popular. Some examples are names with the'juan' sound {which is pronounced two ways-"WAHN" or "JEW-wahn"} or "von" {vahn} or "shawn" {"shaun"; "shon"; "sean"} names or suffix {such as Dashon which is pronounced 'day-shawn' and whose nickname is "Day Day"}...

Singers whose voices are gritty or rough is another example of sound preferences among not just African Americans but I believe other persons from the African Diaspora...

I could ramble on but my rambling time is up.

Peace!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

CarolC, I was in a hotel bar in Toronto. The server had a pronounced accent that to my unaccustomed ear sounded northern English, or possible Irish with immersion in one of the northern cities. I asked her about it, and was embarassed to find out that she was new to the mainland, but wasn't from the British Isles, but from Newfoundland.

People from the Caribbean here do have the vernacular of their home islands. They put on a Carib Fest every year. Their children lose island accents quickly. I should NOT have used the term African-American- that was a slip. We seldom use terms like African-Canadian (or African-African?- hadn't thought about that one). We tend to label them with country of origin (after all a Scot remains a Scot) until they become Canadian in attitude. Emigrants from Africa are so varied, and I am ignorant of the languages and political boundaries.

To most of us, it means a variety of cuisines- we have very good Ethiopian, Moroccan, Egyptian, and east African, etc. restaurants in addition to all the Asian ones. (over 20% of our population is composed of visible minorities).

The technician whom I call to solve problems I have with my computer is an East Indian born in Kenya, who has forgotton his family's language, but can still speak Swahili.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Y'all speak jest like us....
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:08 PM

So Q, are you saying that the term "Black Canadians" [or some other generic referent] isn't used for people of African descent in Canada?

Interesting....