Explosions in London

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:39 AM

Or even better why not stop jumping to conclusions or chewing on unsubstantiated statements, and wait a bit

...for the rest of the bodies to be brought up
...for the investigators to sift through the evidence
...for the culrpits to be identified.

Anybody celebrating at the misery of others is no different than anyone who tries to profit from such misery, either financially (certain London hoteliers) or politically. They are all callous pieces of shit.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:58 AM

What about the bomb scare in Brimingham (spelling) England, on the
BBC it was a quick there was a bomb scare in Birimingham, and now here's the weather.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

It proved to be nothing - though police said the information on which they were acting posed a "credible threat". 20,000 people evacuated from the city centre last night, all very orderly and proper, but no bomb as such.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

So that makes it all right then ach it just a city or town in north of London and it doesn't matter if there was a bomb or not, it was still a quick news item and then goodnight, so it was still a threat.

Just typical, London is always the main news and to hang with the rest.

50 plus people died in London and it was on the news thursday/friday/saturday and Sunday. and yet there were 3 thousand people killed in Northern Ireland and so many hundred killed in Iraq, and it's a quick news item and goodnight.

Which to me isn't fair.

You did not give a shit about them.

Look I'm sorry but London got bombed, but they didn't lose 3 thousand men women and children.

Let bygones be bygones and we'll agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

Understand Tam; and I know that you don't mean to imply anything derogatory. But it's a fact of life that news coverage of such events is not proportional to the number of victims; neither should it be. In the case of London the interest is higher because it is the centre for most of the country's financial institutions; and it is also the capital. I don't think there would have been significantly more or less fuss made by the media whether there had been 200 or only 5 victims. So, fair or unfair, it's just a fact of life that London commands more attention than Birmingham or Glasgow.

But grief, and surprise, and anger, and any other feelings generated by such events (both in the UK and in other countries) are not measured by wordage either. There are 'Catters who have not posted anything on this - or on the Iraq threads, or the 9/11 ones. This does not mean that they do not care. The media play their game, here as in every country; but we are not sheep either.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM

Tam - don't you remeber the coverage that Warrington got? It was, quite rightly, all over the news for days, as was Omagh.

It is always the way that the killing of one or two gets little coverage, yet the killing of numbers, whether from bombs, train wrecks or natural disasters commands more attention.

The feeling that I have is that I want to do something to help those who have suffered this time, in the same way as I felt sympathy and a need to help after the tsunami and 9.11. Right now laying blame doesn't come into the equation - people have suffered and, whether it be one or one thousand, I wish that I could do something to help.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:33 PM

Here's one other thought. Al Qaida may have screwed the poor of the world (specifically Africa). Due the protests, high profile protesters, and the publicity the G8 countries were almost ready to put the subject of poverty on the table for discussion (they might not have actually done anything, but that might have talked about it was progress of a sort). With the London bomings they were then freed up , politically speaking, to discuss terrorism (which is the only thing any of them WANTED to talk about anyway).

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: NormanD
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM

Just checking in three days after the bombings. I rarely travel into central London, but did so on Thursday, at that time. On a ThamesLink train passing through KX. A major day of anxiety, fear, answering frantic texts as to my whereabouts and a difficult journey home. But at least I got home.

So I read the Mudcat. We've got the usual American (I assume) fundamentalists attacking Islam and calling all their critics douchebags, etc. We've got the usual fascists quoting Herr Nick Griffin, as opportunist as ever. We've got lengthy quotes from stupid Noel Coward songs, well-meaning but patronising.

People are still unaccounted for, unknown bodies are beginning to rot in the subway tunnels, people are still pretty much in shock. Monday will be an awful day for commuters. People will travel as usual, and resume work, not because they're plucky or defiant or standing up to the terrorists, but because they have little choice in the matter. If you don't go to work, you don't get paid. We're just the foot soldiers in other people's wars.

We don't know who planted the bombs, it could be any one of the various rival Islamic sects, it could be a mad fascist (remember the Soho bombings, BNP apologists?), who knows.

All I will say is: a terrorist is a person who has a bomb, but does not have an airforce.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:52 PM

A bomb scare is not the same as a bomb explosion. Even if, because of the circunstances of the time, it gets treated seriously enough to close down a city centre.

I think it can be pretty safely said that if, God forbid, something like last Thursday happened elsewhere in the UK, it would get the same level of attention from the media.

As El Greko says "news values" do affect how tragedies in distant places are handled, and that can be oddly out of balance, but it's a reflection of what the media believe their readers or viewers are likely to be concerned about, rather than a conspiracy to distort public opinion. And the nature of coverage is also affected by such things as as where the reporters actually are when it happens - for example, in this case, commuting to work on the Underground or bus.

.............
And don't anyone be taken in by talk about people in mosques rejoicing at last week's events by people who would appear to be trying to stir up hate. "It is an evil that cannot be justified and that we utterly condemn and reject," is how Sheikh Dr Zaki Badawi, of the Council of Mosques and Imams put it; and there is clearly a great deal of anger among Muslims in this country at the killers, more especially since the victims included an unknown number of Muslims.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

The article that references people dancing was from the 9/11 attacks in 2002, not from the recent bombings in London.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM

Excuse me... 2001

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:34 AM

I was wondering why I hadn't seen any pictures of dancing Londoners .... I think someone owes me an apology from the 'Face of 9/11' thread.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:09 AM

Sorry, it wasn't the 'Face of 9/11' thread, it was in this one... Guest of 8/7, 6.03pm..... Waiting for your apology.

I shan't be holding my breath.

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM

There is an uncanny resemblance to the Irish-American Clan-na-Gael attacks on tube stations in 1880s.
I lived in Birmingham when bombs were goingoff, I worked in Regent's Park when the bandstand was bombed (but I was in central London that day) and when the Old Bailey bomb went off I could see the smoke from my ofice in New Cross. I've been lucky and I no longer have to travel into the city but like everyone else I still will when I want to. Attacks on "soft" targets like this may be easy for the bombers but don't advance whatever twisted cause they have one iota. G8 goes on, Olympics go on, the allies still try to bring normality back to Iraq (I din't support that war but I do support the reconstruction which the bombers now target).

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM

Bloody hell, Roger you're gettingt on a bit!
Is this the Clan-na-Gael that used to be such lovely dancers?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM

That's rich coming from someone who hits half a century in less than 12 months......

LTS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

Just got an e-mail from my son saying he's alive and well (I'm not sure where, but that's ok).

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

If only

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/Misc/kaboom.wmv

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

Glad to hear that Carol.
That was a bit of a wait for you...
Good to know He is safe
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Donuel -

Is that a real VW ad?

If so, its in extremely poor taste. I mean its O.K. to display something like this on a forum but I hope it isn't on t.v.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:50 PM

I have seen this one before but I'm not sure that it was ever put out on TV.

I think that it would appeal to the British sense of humour though. I reckoned it was pretty good.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

Any stuff like that would never get past the censors (British Board of advertising control). High bandwidth connections have allowed creative advertisers to get to us without interference, and hopefully forward it to people.

And you're right. Very British indeed.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

Bunninabrain is right, here are other internet car commercials.

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert1.wmv

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert2.mpg

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert3.wmv

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert4.mpg

, sorry for the drift.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM

Anyhow, still would like a pointer to some valid way to help injured and stricken victims of the London bombimgs.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

developing story...

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:26 PM

Robomatic, you could try this. They seem to take world pay so I guess can take donations from overseas.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:41 PM

Police have just announced that they are sure all four bombers died in the explosions. The death of one of them led police to raid addresses in W.Yorks. An arrest has been made and articles seized. They believe all four bombers are British born.

The BNP (the party of choice of our resident bigot) have been slammed by all parties for producing an election leaflet, showing photos of the bus bomb.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

New rumor of terrorist London bombers being shot.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10334992

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:52 PM

A reporter actually asked the police at a press conference the afternoon of the bombings, to confirm if police had shot dead a bomber and the police denied any knowledge of that happening.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

Excuse the duplication if someone has already mentioned this here, but there's a survivor's diary on the BBC website that is utterly compelling reading. A very fine and brave young woman. It's at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4670099.stm

(Scroll down to start with the earliest message)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

Yes I remember Warrington and Brighton, however we can go on forever.

Tam

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

The bombers were MUSLIMS! That has now been established with the news tonight.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

Tam - the point is that they were OUTSIDE London and got the same sort of coverage.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

Mr. Interested, do you only care about people getting killed by bombs when the bombers are Muslims? Couldn't give a shit about anybody killed by bombers who aren't Muslims, right? The important thing about the bombers is NOT that they are Muslims. The important thing about the bombers is that they were BOMBERS.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

i have read post after post on here saying that nobody knows if they were muslims, when clearly they were!

I'm simply bringing this section of the debate to close, they WERE muslims.

Does it matter they were muslims? So your saying the police should ingore the avenue of religious fanatacism in their enquiries? They should ignore muslims at finsbury mosque declaring jihad on western peoples calling for murder? They should ignore televised muslims celebrating the attack in London?

You think all this should be ignored for the greater good of 'tolerance'?

As for me only caring about bombers when the bombers is a load of crap, i care about this issue now because we have just seen many many people slaughtered by fantatics. What do you want me to do? As we all discuss the london bombings and the bomb scares now escalating around the UK you want me to discuss a petrol bomb in Yemen?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

I bet you have been and are celebrating the bombings yourself, GUEST,interested, because you see them as the perfect opportunity to help you spread your message of hate.

I bet you yourself danced upon hearing the news and gave thanks for the deaths of innocent people so you could continue to spread your filthy message of hate.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

Guest Interested - Its time to stop blaming Muslims for the acts of a fanatical few. Call them terrorists or Jihadists if you must but don't call them Muslims. Muslims have repeatedly denounced terrorist acts. Most Muslims are not terrorists. Thats like saying all Christians are responsible for the acts of Christians in the KKK and that all Christians are racists.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:43 PM

Carol, Mr Interested answered your questions, why not answer his/hers?

To accuse someone of dancing after the terrorist attacks is to be honest, well sick.

We certainly differ in opinions, but on other threads relating to muslim intolerance, you have always been fair, but to accuse someone of that is simply not right.

I agree, most Muslims are NOT terrorists, but you can't expect the police not to investigate the points interested raised. it would not make sense.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

Suicide bombing is rather unusual, in that you can select your target remarkably accurately. I can understand the motivation of the kamikaze pilot very easily: you are going for the enemy you have selected as heroically as you can. Likewise anyone in Palestine going for the Israeli army checkpoint, or whatever.
We are asked to believe by many posters here that the bombers are acting out of hostility to Blair and the British army going into Iraq. You would think, if this was actually the case, that the bombers would have a go at political or military targets, of which there are are huge selection of readily attackable people, or installations, in England. But these bombs have been directed at extremely ordinary people in tubes and a bus on the way to work. This doesnt seem to me to be someone specifically protesting about the British ploical/military establishment. This sounds< I'm afraid, like some stupid gullible kids seduced into ultimate stupidity by some convincing older man offering adolescents a specious paradise in return for their "heroic deeds". I have worked with a lot of young Muslim kids over the last few years, and I know the kind of rubbish that is told to some of them. All we can hope is that a bit more education will eventually make the young a little more sceptical about what they are told by their elders and betters.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

Celebrating Death by Violence caused by either by so called terrorists or by Military means is repulsive. It would also be equally repulsive, if say, a Political Party used the London Bombings as a tool they hoped would further their Campaign. Hopefully there are no legitimate Political Parties in the UK that would stoop that low!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Using the London bombings, especially in this thread, as a tool for promoting a political agenda is, well, sick, Mr. Hannam. And that is what GUEST,interested is doing. That sort of behavior deserves to be pointed out.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said they had received the news from the police with "anguish, shock and horror".


He said: "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings against innocent people.

"While the police investigation continues we reiterate our absolute commitment and resolve to helping the police bring to justice all involved in this crime of mass murder. Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers."

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:28 PM

greg stephens has made the point. It is not that they 'happened' to be Muslims, but that extremists are USING religion to inflame young people .The fact is, when their religion IS a major component of their drive to do harm to innocent people, it is no longer irrelevant.

I am quite aware that most Muslims would not do this, and that moderate clerics have condemned the violence...but extremist clerics are exacerbating the problem and using impressionable young people to further complex political/religious ends!

One further point...there has been cruelty and violence perpetrated in the name of other religions also, including Christianity, but Islam seems to have this concept, whether these extremists are interpreting it correctly or not, of 'immediate access to Paradise' for dying while fighting for the 'cause'. You get violent folks in many religions, but the idea of using suicide to destroy the enemy is NOT a common factor in all religions.

Now...before you flame me for seeming to just blindly agree with 'interested', READ my points over again, and note why I say what I do.....

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM

Greg - that should be 'elders and SUPPOSED betters'.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:55 PM

People professing certain branches of Christianity have certainly perpetrated what would today be considered heinous acts of infamy. Sometimes these people were Popes and Kings and Queens. No Popes and Kings and Queens of the recent past would dream of thinking or doing these things in the current era.

Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity. Islam has not gone through a Reformation or Enlightenment period.

As people, Muslims are NO DIFFERENT from us or anyone. As an institution, Islam is in a different time zone, psychology, and acting off a different game plan than the rest of the West (and most of the East).

This would come to a head at some time, and in our case it is the twin drives of the need to relate economically with the Muslim world over oil, and the technological changes wrought to the world making it impossible for Muslims to escape being bombarded by media pleasant, unpleasant, and downright obscene. They are being dragged into modernity kicking and screaming, and on one level, who can blame them? On another level, we are seeing a relation of belief to superstition and the use of religion as a power device that we ourselves are not totally free from.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

There is a big difference between discussing (and even condemning) the way extremist Muslims address what they see as injustices, and using the London bombings as an excuse to whip up hatred towards Muslims generally, Bill. I'm sure you can understand the difference. A careful look at all of Guest,interested posts show that they fall into the latter category.

But the reality is that until legitimate grievances that Muslims and Muslim countries have about the way they are being treated by the West are addressed in a constructive way by all sides in question, the problem of terrorism will not go away. Killing more of them just creates more of them.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:12 PM

Islam forbids killing.

A person cannot be a Muslim and a murderer. It's one or the other.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:21 PM

award for the most niave mudcatter post to date goes to Leeneia

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:33 AM

By a weird coincidence I'm currently re-reading the "Cribb" Victorian detective series by Peter Lovesey including Invitation to a Dynamite Party based on the real 1884-6 bombing campaign by the Irish-American Clan-na-Gael. Many of the same stations were targeted then.

RtS

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:46 AM

Leenia: I really dont think you have the right to decide who is and who is not a Muslim, according to some criterion of your own. As a general rule of thumb, if someone tells me they are a Muslim, I reckon they are Muslim. If someone claims to be an atheist, I reckon they are atheist. Of course, they may be lying, but in generaL I think we can define our own religions. You seem to be saying that a sinner cant belong to a religion. That is not a generally held belief, I think you are in a minority there.