BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:23 PM

Here you go...

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7025

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

From the article in dianavan's link...

"This wealth of information creates a new picture about what is motivating suicide terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think. The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.

TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?

RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign-over 95 percent of all the incidents-has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Well
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

"These are random thoughts so please don't accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist"

dianavan you are a conspiracy theorist and a wrong one at that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

well carolc [cat was away awhile] big stink if we look at a damn koran wrong,the muslim fanatics behead someone,nobody blinks.
its ok for them there claim to fame is fear,the same game our pol's are playing with us to shorten the leash,ours just haven't started killing us outright yet[that we know of]

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

One more bit from the article. jpk, this one's for you...

"TAC: That would seem to run contrary to a view that one heard during the American election campaign, put forth by people who favor Bush's policy. That is, we need to fight the terrorists over there, so we don't have to fight them here.

RP: Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us."

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:01 PM

for the most part there killing each other;it is sick when it is ok to kill a bunch of kids to futher your agenda,plus if they would stop making it headline news,its effectiveness would fade fast.
the media's # 1 rule for reporting,if it bleeds it leads.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

it is sick when it is ok to kill a bunch of kids to futher your agenda

It is indeed. And the US government and its allies have killed many, many more kids than any terrorists have to further their agendas. That's a big part of the reason that there are any "terrorists" in the first place. The "terrorists'" agenda is to get us to leave them alone and stop killing them and their kids. Our agenda is to occupy their land and steal and/or take control of their resources.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 01:33 AM

hear, hear!

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM

The majority here on Mudcat and in the media seem to be of the opinion thatto attempt to rationalise the London bombings is a bad thing.

The current thinking from most of us is that we should continue the "War on Terror", tighten up on civil rights at home and generally never give in to the terrorists, without giving any regard to whether this course of action has worked in the past.

Blair appeared on TV today, saying that to link the London bombings with UK foreign policy was ludicrous, without giving any credible reason for his statement.

In most of the past conflicts involving terrorist action,where military force was used against the terrorists, the terrorist were not defeated, by ended up achieving most of their objectives.
The examples of Northern Ireland, Chetnyia,Vietnam, prove my point.

In Iraq and our policy has produced a culture of terrorism and a threat to ourselves which was not there before the invasion.

The injustice of how the war was sold to the British people has also pruduced a deep sense of resentment among young Muslims, and the blame for this lies with Mr Blair personally, as he was instrumental in pushing the discredited "reasons for war".

The most important point as far as I am concerned, is that suicide bombing does not become commonplace in the UK as it has in Iraq, and sticking to a failed policy and trying to justify past crimes by our politicians certainly won't keep us safe....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 06:09 AM

carolC, the terrorist supporter said:

The "terrorists'" agenda is to get us to leave them alone and stop killing them and their kids. Our agenda is to occupy their land and steal and/or take control of their resources.

Tell that to the family of Theo Van Gogh. "Naive" doesn't even come close.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Shakey, the supporter of state sponsored terrorism said:

Tell that to the family of Theo Van Gogh. "Naive" doesn't even come close.

That's an interesting point. Has that murder been officially designated as "terrorism"? If it has, then I guess we'll have to put the murder of Yitzhak Rabin in the category of terrorism as well. Yes, that certainly does open up a whole other interesting can of worms.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

Now we see---as if we did not know the trouble with screen names. For a long while now I have objected to people not posting their real names---as I do.   Carol C has a point---she cannot believe shat she sees.   Too many people---and some who post here, probably, use various names.   I don't.

I have not met "H Hogan"(only heard about his wrestling career) ---do not know him, but certainly express my thanks for his kind words and courtesy.   The proof of his identity is that he knows of one of my other 2 programs (Sunday Simcha--Jewish oriented and with a tilt toward "folk" in the Jewish tradition). I have never mentioned it here. Nor the 3d program---Tabletalk which chats w/ people in arts and lit---and---Carol---you will love this--one of my guests was the author of a book on the 1967 War in Israel.   Michael Oren. A scholar that I doubt you would debate very well.

In any case I just wanted to clear up the problem some have with identity and the internet. I am--ME. No other person. WOujld that we all kept our true identities.

Now---with the kidnapping of the thread by certain zealots--I hesitate to use Carol's favorite word---Trolls---perhaps we can get back to a serious contemplation of the sad events of recent history in London---which is what this started out to be.

The One--The Only---and you will note on this list there are others of us who are using our real names for the sake of truth in "advertising"

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

Oh, good. That means I don't have to ignore Mr. Hogan (yet).

Hulk, I think you misunderstand the source of my amusement. I'm not laughing because I don't believe Bill H is a DJ. I'm laughing because the term "DJ" is so perfectly apt in this particular case..

Now Ron Olesko, I have some respect for. He is a serious professional who deserves the designation of "radio announcer" rather than DJ. He's not a vain little peacock, or a prima donna. And he's a kind and conscientious human being.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:40 PM

Michael Oren (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:59 PM

Why is the fact that someone is a DJ, however well regarded, seen as somehow relevant in a non-music thread? I mean, maybe it's interesting, but...
................

Pity this thread's been soured up so. It's always a mistake to respond to personal attacks, or rise to intentional provocation by people making posts that oversimplify or distort the facts, but I think the main blame when this happens lies with those who set out to provoke the reaction rather than than the people who react.

It seemed to me that it made sense for a thread more about how people in London and around were reacting to the bombings, alongside the other one which seemed to be shaping up to be more about the whys and wherefores. And I know this one started out as a conspiracy thread, but threads drift, and this seemed to be drifting in a useful way for a while. So I'll try to drift it back.

..........
We went up to London on Friday 15th - we'd been planning to go the previous Friday, but the day after the bombings seemed a bit soon. Still you can't put things off too long, or you'd never do anything.

Can't say people seemed particularly nervous, either on the train, the tube or the riverbus we took down to Kew Gardens, which was our destination. They checked the bags on the boat going out, but for some reason not coming back. (Incidentally the boat going out had a plaque on the wall and a poster explaining how it had been one of those which took part in the Dunkirk evacuation. These boats last a long time)

On the way back we stopped off in Trafalgar Square, where they were showing the First Night of the Proms on a giant screen. Thinnish crowd, but that might have been because it was Michael Tippet's music, rather than because of bombs. Normal mixed up London crowd. We noticed a lady in full head-to toe burkha sitting on a bench listening to the music.

One thing, on the way home, first on a bus and then on a train, a fellow passenger was eager to start a conversation with us, which normally doesn't tend to happen with Londoners. Maybe that might have reflected a reaction to the odd times, and a way of dispelling the tension - if people travelling by Public Transport in London became a bit friendlier instead of ignoring each other that would be an unlooked for and healthy by-product of the bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

Iraq war officially linked to London bombing.......
Todays news.

We knew the threat before the invasion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

Ah, Carol--again you go back to Israel---and, of course found a site that backs your views. I do admit that they probably have better debating points than you can come up with---probably why you selected that site---and made it look like it was Michael Oren's. Oh well, fairness is not in your lexicon.

You do remember London and the original thread. Don't you?

By the way---I agree w/McGrath's comment---Host/DJ--all irrelevent in this thread. I do, however, appreciate the kind thoughts and, surely, expected nothing different from Carol who prides herself as always being some sort of wounded party. What did old Bill Shakespeare say --"...hell hath no fury as a woman---you know the rest".

Carol---your fovrie radio host and interviewer of people of substance.

Shalom and Salaam---but most of all cheerio.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM

"Smiler with a knife"...

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

LOL, McGrath. I'm going to have to remember that one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:08 PM

Carol C is and will always be a Jew hater and enemy of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

Oops. Looks like I posted a link to the second page of the article from The Nation. The article is a review of a few books, one of them, the book by Michael Oren that was previously mentioned in this thread.

Here it is, from the beginning...

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040531&c=1&s=beinin

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

I do find that a lot of people who are apologists for the policies of the government of Israel tend to resort almost exclusively to the use of character assasination against those who do not agree with the policies of the government of Israel. And this is because they are trying to defend the indefensible, so character assasination is the only tool they've got to work with. This thread contains numerous examples of this practice.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

you know it is kinda funny,but if this was a bunch of peaceable people in the first place,no one would of had so easy a time of coming to the fore with a reson/excuse to do anything about it
then to if the britts and there euro neibors had of stayed away from the arab world in the first place the world would be a little different today,all the arab islamist would have probly killed each other off a while back
even if the entire western world was to withdraw and close themselfs within there own borders,it would not stop,those in power in the arab world need us badly,with out the west to be there scape goats,there own subjects/victims really might see the real reason for there prblems,and rebel aginst them[there own leaders followed by there hate and fear blinded rabble]there only real means of control is to foster hate and fear[our own leaders are learning how to play us the same way;just not as well]

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM

CarolC,

Please provide some documentation on your statement "And the US government and its allies have killed many, many more kids than any terrorists have to further their agendas. "

Do you mean the US over its lifetime? Just this administration? All terrorists of any type?


The Turks are presently our allies ( in theory): Do you claim the 21+million Armenians killed as the responsibility of the US? How about the tens of millions killed by Stalin- He was out "ally" during WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

Would someone kindly translate jpk's offering.

Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:23 PM

jpk, if they were going to kill themselves before we ever started interfering with their societies and appropriating their natural resources, why weren't they all dead already before we got there? That's some pretty convoluted rationalizing you're engaging in there.


Please provide some documentation on your statement "And the US government and its allies have killed many, many more kids than any terrorists have to further their agendas."

Interesting request. I think for now, I'll just provide examples. I'm sure you won't have any difficulty finding documentation to support them. But if you do, let me know and I'll round some up for you.

- The indigenous people of the part of North America that is now the US. The government of the US is responsible for killing, in cold blood, many thousands of Indian women and children.

- Any children of African origin/ancestry who were slaves in the United States, and who died because of their captivity, were killed by the policies of the US government and its agendas.

- Any children killed by the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan.

- Any children who were killed by the US military in the wars in Korea, Vietnam, and the US bombing campaigns in Cambodia (more than a half million civilians were killed by US bombs during the bombing campaigns in Cambodia).

- Any children who were killed by any US government sponsored covert operations in South and Central America.

- Any children who were killed by proxy fighters who were fighting on behalf of the US, including any Iranian children who were killed by Saddam Hussien, any children killed by the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, any children killed by US forces in Afghanistan, any children killed by the US led invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some other examples right now, but I can post them as I think of them. I think it would be a bit difficult to find exact numbers for these kinds of things because the US government really couldn't give a poop how many children it kills and would prefer to keep the numbers left unknown. But I think it would be safe to assume that it easily adds up to more than a million in the history of the US.

Do you mean the US over its lifetime?

US over its lifetime.

All terrorists of any type?

I guess that depends on how you define "terrorist". If you're talking about state sponsored terrorism, then my statement that you quoted is rendered useless because of the fact that the US, itself, is a major sponsor of state sponsored terrorism. I also would not include genocide campaigns between ethnic groups like the one in Rwanda or the genocides in the Balkans as terrorism. Those were genocides, and have a very different purpose than terrorism.

The Turks are presently our allies ( in theory): Do you claim the 21+million Armenians killed as the responsibility of the US? How about the tens of millions killed by Stalin- He was out "ally" during WWII.

No, I do not claim that the US is responsible for the children killed by its allies (unless they do it at the behest of the US, as Saddam Hussein did). And the statement by me that you quoted does not even suggest that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:17 PM

Carol I have to admit you're good, you must have a first class honours degree in sophistry. But, in the end, bovine excrement is still just bullshit.

How do you manage to walk anywhere with that enormous chip on your shoulder. The guilt that you carry, simply for being in the west, must be crushing you.

Sure the US has made mistakes but they've also contributed one hell of a lot of good things to this world. You are spouting your nonsense on a US developed machine because they defended your right to do so three times in the last hundred years.

Spout all you want, the UK has just voted Blair to power for the third time with a massive majority - after the invasion of Iraq. The US did a similar job with Bush. You may rant and rave all you want and five people here on this forum will see it, meanwhile, real people will be working 12 hours a day to ensure you can keep on doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM

You make a hell of a lot of assumptions, Shakey. beardedbruce asked me some questions and I answered them. If the best you have to offer of your own point of view is insults and taunts, rather than anything of substance, then you must not have much of anything to offer at all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:59 PM

Oh, did I touch a nerve?

There is life outside of this forum and I prefer to do my talking where it matters, here I simply like to point out, to the passerby, some of the gross nonsense that is written, much of it by you.

I'm not baiting anyone, in fact please don't respond, it doesn't matter. All the posts stay on record for everyone to read, people can make their own mind up.

In the beginning i thought you were just naive but now I think you actually believe the pseudo-intellectual clap-trap that you copy and paste from hither and thither, if you ever get to the stage where you also understand it God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:05 PM

Oh, did I touch a nerve?

More assumptions. But I notice that you still haven't actually said anything, so I know I can safely breeze on past your posts without worrying that I might actually miss anything.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:31 PM

We are easily distrated by assumptions.
We are distracted by the soap opera news reports about who did what - SEE THE BACKPACKS - ITS THEM!

You should not be distracted by the rules of war or how much torture is too much torture. You should only be concerned with War itself. This current war is one in which we have been assured will be a long, on going, and some seem to think, a never ending war.

All war waltzes in on a lie. Every war is promised to end a dispute once and for all or even be the war to end all wars. The Bush wars promise freedom and peace and democracy. Well after about 20 years starting with Desert Storm, where is it? That's right its still coming with no time table to gum up the works.

War promises it will deliver the goods.
But it never does.
The enemy is war itself.

I hear intelligent people rationalizing why we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. "To get the 9-11 perpetrators" they often say.
If that were true we would have invaded Pakistan and follow up with Saudi Arabia.
But we can't do that. Pakistan would retaliate with nuclear weapons in haste and the Saudi oil fields would become jeopardized. India would in turn need to join in and China would of course be concerned that they are downwind of all the fall out.

Even these fatuous speculations are a distraction from the issue of war as a tool of the proletariat against the poor, the powerful against the powerless, the government against its people and the greatest profit scheme of all time.

Every great social advance has come from people's movements such as, democracy over monarchy, women's rights, civil rights. In the opposite column people say that war inspires the greatest technological advancements.
I'd venture to say that war inspires anti war movements. That's why the best planned invasions always begin with propoganda and extortion to neutralize dissent.
If you need a case study, study the Hitler Youth, or just watch the 4 hour special on the History Channel. If you are not too fogged up with propaganda thinking patterns you could even watch the GE owned NBC with a critical eye and see the tawdry tinsel covered sell job for war.

None of this is to say there are not things worth fighting for:
When in the course of human events...I will fight any tyranny over the mind of man...The only thing to fear is fear itself.
Great men have waged war to end war. Losers usually start them : The Confederacy, Germany, Japan, Alexander the Great, GWB.


Today one of our great and honored Republican Congressmen said If we are attacked by any nuclear device we will first nuke every Muslim holy site beginning with Mecca.

Ya gotta love these Republicans.


No one else will.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:20 AM

Blair's "massive majority" was an artifact created by a distorted electoral system, together with a virtually defunct opposition party.He received the lowest share of the actual vote of any party wining a majority in nearly two centuries. 36% of the vote, equivalent to 22% of the electorate.

I see the proponents of the "Forget the ball - go for the man," style of argument are still puffing around the pitch. (Except it tends to be "go for the woman".)

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST,FG
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

We have all learned the ritual. First come the explosions, the grief, the unbelief. How could anyone do such a thing to innocent men and women? Then, as predictably as the sound of emergency sirens follows a terrorist blast, come the calls for Muslim leaders to condemn the bombings.

When will Muslims rise up against terrorism, Westerners ask on both sides of the Atlantic. This will end, we are told, only when Muslim leaders make it clear to their people that suicide bombings constitute an affront to their humanity and their God.

All true, no doubt. But there is a secret about terrorism that nobody dares to mention: Westerners themselves, for all their sound and fury, have not wholeheartedly condemned terrorism. Not really. Not with the unequivocal conviction they now demand of Muslims.

The secret we have all heard with our own ears is that until now, terrorism, in its most frequent guise - against Israelis and Iraqis - is analyzed, explained, and all but forgiven by Europe's mainstream, by more than a few people in North America and by Mudcatters like CarolC and Dianavan. Terrorists are absolved as long as they are seen as weak or desperate, and their enemy is viewed as a cruel Goliath.

How could a young British Muslim growing up in Leeds, England, come to believe that a suicide bombing is an appropriate way to express a grievance? Very simple. He would watch the news. He would listen to the way British thinkers respond to bombings of Israeli civilians by Palestinian terrorists, and to how terrorist attacks in Iraq are described.

In much of Europe, suicide bombings targeting Israeli civilians do not receive anything remotely resembling the blanket condemnation demanded of Muslims after July 7.

This is not to argue that Israeli tactics must be embraced, or that the objectives of Palestinians must be rejected. But if the British want to tell the world - especially people living within their borders - that terrorism is wrong, they have to declare without nuance and equivocation that attacks designed and executed for the deliberate purpose of murdering civilians for political goals are morally wrong and completely unacceptable - always - no matter the victims, the perpetrators or the political views of either side. That is plainly not what has happened until now.

When the wave of suicide bombings slaughtering Israelis reached its most gruesome depths in 2002, with almost weekly bombings shattering lives and leaving human body parts strewn in cafes, buses and restaurants throughout Israel, the British took to the streets, and CarolC posted endlessly on Mudcat, to condemn Israel and express their sympathy for Palestinians. The terrorist bombings, by all appearances, were a huge success.

One year later, Mohammed Sadiq Khan travelled from London to Tel Aviv and helped organize a nightclub bombing that killed three Israelis. Then he returned to London and blew himself up in the July 7 attacks.
After the London bombings, British Home Secretary Charles Clarke told an emergency meeting of European ministers that the right not to be bombed to bits outweighs any other civil liberty.

That's now. But in April 2002, when Israelis were going out of their minds with grief and fear, the European public reacted with massive street demonstrations condemning Israel's admittedly draconian efforts to stop the bloodshed, and demanding that Israelis give in to Palestinian demands. Condemnation of anti-Israel terrorism was not high on the agenda.

What message would a young impressionable Muslim glean from such an event? If you feel strongly about a cause, blow yourself up. People will pay attention. They will agree with you, and your cause will benefit.

Paul Berman has a theory about the demonization of Israel in the face of the terrorist slaughter. For those who believe a rational logic governs the world, he argues, the only way to make sense of such acts is to portray Israel as deserving the punishment. And so, terrorism is explained and forgiven. Just look at the thousands of posts by CarolC on the topic over the past several years on Mudcat.

The British, and much of Europe, have grown so tolerant of terrorism that they refuse to call it by its real name. The policy of the BBC, and the London-based news agency Reuters, is not to use the word "terrorist" unless quoting someone else's words.

Even if you don't label it, bombing a train full of commuters is terrorism. And if you want to tell the world terrorism is wrong, you have to say exactly that. Otherwise, you'll find yourself wondering, how could it happen here?

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:57 AM

Oh my God statistics. We have the system that we have, is it perfect? No. Is it the same for everyone? Yes.

Now you start talking about a sport. Sorry but this isn't a game, peoples lives are at stake. I will continue to have a go at any apologist for terror that I come across. I'm not saying you are, but they exist on this forum and I'll have a go at their arguments and their motives in equal measure.

I have always thought that Blair is a decent bloke but as far as this subject is concerned he swung it totally with his speach to the US senate in 2003. Unlike carol I can't be bothered to copy and paste all day long if you want to read it then read it if you don't, don't.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:58 AM

Paul Berman has a theory about the demonization of Israel in the face of the terrorist slaughter. For those who believe a rational logic governs the world, he argues, the only way to make sense of such acts is to portray Israel as deserving the punishment. And so, terrorism is explained and forgiven. Just look at the thousands of posts by CarolC on the topic over the past several years on Mudcat.

Israel doesn't deserve punishment. Nobody does. But Israel is directly responsible for the situation it finds itself in (as is the US), and it needs to acknowlege and correct this if it ever wants to see an end to the problem of terrorism. Demonizing me isn't going to solve the problem. It just provides you and others like you with a handy scapegoat so you won't have to deal with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM

Was this a thread about the recent bombing in London? Are you so determined to prove a point about Israel that you are not addressing the issues of this thread? Are you getting stuck into anyone who has a different view? Do you consider yourself right, and everyones else to be ignorant?

Are You a "Right-Fighter"?

Do you find yourself needing to "win" arguments? Do people ask you why you always have to be right? Does conflict you engage in typically end with you having the last word, but no one feels good about the argument? If you have said yes to any of these questions, you are likely a right-fighter!

A right-fighter is someone who needs to win arguments. To be seen as right, you also NEED to make someone else seem wrong. A right-fighter gets overly emotional or angry when people do not agree with them and their opinions or beliefs. A right-fighter is someone who insists on having the last word in an argument or refuses to back down no matter what.

People who are right-fighters, (or those who are driven by the need to be right), have their value or worth literally attached to the outcome of being right. The "right-fighter" desperately believes (unconsciously) that others must agree with her to feel ok about him/herself.
   
Right-Fighting is an acceptable form of violence or aggression. Because the right-fighting pattern usually ends up one sided and includes a winner and a loser, the effects are similar to those of physical abuse. Learned submission on the part of the children and often the other parent/spouse is inevitable. "Right-Fighting" is in fact a form of emotional abuse.

If you have found that you may have some qualities of a right- fighter, don't start beating yourself up, begin working on it! You are a wonderful and lovable person with far more positive qualities than negative... this is certain! This habit does NOT have to define you. You are capable of releasing this habit at any time (please seek help if you need it, a partner in change is always a wonderful gift to yourself and your family!). Acknowledging your habit of right-fighting and becoming aware when you are engaging in this habit is the first, most important step in leading a more successful and happy life.

"Right-fighters": Begin to gently remind yourself of your unchanging value and worth during arguments and disagreements, whether or not you fully believe it. "Fake it till you make it"! Begin to imagine what conflict would be like if the outcome was not important. Begin to allow others to hold one opinion and you another without having ill or hurt feelings. What would life be like to be loved, cared for and respected rather than being "right"? Try validating others' opinions as equally valuable. This doesn't mean you must agree, only to say "yes" you and your view are as valuable as mine". I promise you, peace will begin to flow into your life....

Meanwhile, back in London..

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:23 AM

Sorry guest but the "you and your view are as valuable as mine" attitude is what is getting the west into the trouble that it's in. Political correctness gone crazy, tolerating the intolerable. The furthest I can go is "your right to hold your view is as valuable as my right to hold mine". It's childish nonsense to even suggest that all views are equal.

At the risk of becoming pythonesque and stating the bleedin' obvious will you accept the view that it's fair to torture children because you think they are posessed by devils: is this a "valuable view"?

You spell well for a Guardian reader.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:32 AM

Not at all, Guest,19 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM. How about you? If people don't want to talk about Israel in this thread, all they have to do is not bring it up. I know I haven't.

But I have addressed the subject of this thread, which is not just the bombings in London, but is actually about whether or not the governments of the US and Britain are responsible for 9/11 and the recent bombings in London. I don't think I necessarily agree with Peter's original premise, but I do think it's worth looking at how the behavior of these two governments contributes to the problem. And that IS the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

So if the US and UK governments go away, so will the Israel problems, I dont think so.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM

Carol wrote:

" But I have addressed the subject of this thread, which is not just the bombings in London, but is actually about whether or not the governments of the US and Britain are responsible for 9/11 and the recent bombings in London. I don't think I necessarily agree with Peter's original premise, but I do think it's worth looking at how the behavior of these two governments contributes to the problem. And that IS the subject of this thread."

Well I've read it and re-read it but bugger me I can't find anything wrong with it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:09 AM

So if the US and UK governments go away, so will the Israel problems, I dont think so.

I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. I don't think anybody has suggested that any governments should go away. But I do think it would be constructive to for these governments make some changes in the way they do things.

However, if you are saying that if Israel corrects the way it does things, the problem of terrorism against it will not go away, I disagree with you on that point. I'm not saying that no terrorist act will ever be committed aginast Israel ever again, if it corrects its behavior. But I am saying that if Israel ends the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (and ends the appropriation of the water resources of these areas), terrorism against Israel will, at the very least, become an extremely rare occurance.

But if you would rather not talk about Israel, that would suit me just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM

I agree with carol in as much that Isreal has to give land back but I'm not convinced that this would make Isreal a safe place. As with Cuba there's not much chance that the US would ever settle while a lunatic was in power but now he's gone they really should do more.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

Guest FG - You said, "by Mudcatters like CarolC and Dianavan. Terrorists are absolved as long as they are seen as weak or desperate, and their enemy is viewed as a cruel Goliath."

At no time have I absolved terrorists from their criminal acts. To find a solution, the problem must be understood. Yes, I do try to find what motivates them and try not to get sidetracked by blanket statements issued by our lying and corrupt politicians. In this 'war against terrorism', nobody is right. Just because I criticize Bush and Blair, doesn't mean I'm defending terrorism.

You seem to think everything is black and white. I happen to think that there are many shades of grey.

I'd appreciate it if you could stick to the discussion and quit making this personal. Take your mask off make your argument without taking pot shots and distorting the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

let me guess a little bit here carolc,i bet that you just adored jfk,you thought that johnson was ok because of his civil rights stance,that you abhoared nam,and nixon because of nam,you blessed watergate for doing away with that warmongering nixon.hay a nice d'y ay'w'y.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: jpk
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM

ps carolc;i wonder how you would excuse the kraut's and jap's behavior during[aswell as prior to] ww2,and that it was all the us's fault.
oh please don't call them japs and krauts,you might hurt there self essteam,and feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:08 AM

More often than not, when people talk about the importance of being "100 per cent against terrorism", they then go on to indicate some exception for some variety of terrorism they happen to see as justifiable, such as that carried out by governments.

Trying to understand why something is happening is not the same as accepting and condoning it. That applies as much to acts of terror carried out by dissidents as it does to acts of terror carried out by governments.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM

Oh, these guilty pleasures and smiles when scanning this thread:

Seeing Carol and Dianavan quoting approvingly from The American Conservative

Seeing them praising the extreme conservative expert Robert Pape of Bombing to win fame. Before the Iraq war (Novemeber 2001) he was quoted: University of Chicago political scientist Robert Pape, author of the book Bombing to Win, thinks the air war might take as long as a year — which may be a lot longer than the American people would support. . Give me Bobert for a change.

Seeing Dianavan describing her thoughts as 'random thoughts'. Well, I know what that expression means; but imagine the pleasure of reading 'random' in a verbatim sense as for instance 'lacking coherence'. I wouldn't have dared to say that.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

Something to consider is the effect the bombings must have had on the people of London. The people who live there are the ones who deserve the time and space to work out how to deal with it all, without being ripped apart by a cacophany people with bones to pick.

it's like what brucie says about people who crowd around ambulance scenes like vultures.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

Wrong on all counts, jpk.

I have no position on JFK other than that he was a politician and I have no doubt that he committed some horrible crimes. I know LBJ committed some horrible crimes. I have mixed feelings about Nixon.

I would not excuse the behavior of the Germans or the Japanese during WWII, which by the way, the behavior of the US, with it's invasion of a sovereign country that didn't pose an imminent threat, most closely resembles. I do not "exuse" the behavior of terrorists. I only try to show how we are helping to create the problem of terrorism with our behavior, rather than to help eliminate it.

Enjoy your smugness now, Wolfgang... you'll have reason to feel differently soon enough, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: 'The Face of 911' in London?
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:16 AM

"I would not excuse the behavior of the Germans or the Japanese during WWII, which by the way, the behavior of the US, with it's invasion of a sovereign country that didn't pose an imminent threat, most closely resembles."

I feel a macism coming on...

You cannot be serious