BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried

Subject: RE: BS: DRUMCREE MARCH DEAD AND BURIED
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

I, for one, wait with hope to hear of the last rites for the marching "season", entirely. Then, dead and buried it will be.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: DRUMCREE MARCH DEAD AND BURIED
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 03:45 AM

We'll know that Ireland is really at peace, when the Orange march is attended by kids in orange plastic bowlers and sashes with green shamrocks on them, and banging little plastic bodhrans made in China.

One step on the road might be for the Orange order to invite Nationalists to march with them.

Subject: RE: BS: DRUMCREE MARCH DEAD AND BURIED
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:13 AM

.. to help celebrate their own defeat?

Oh come on...

Subject: RE: BS: DRUMCREE MARCH DEAD AND BURIED
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM

It remains a defeat because it's "results" still hold and triumphal gloating dominates. When the celebration is conducted as Paul Burke describes, something that COULD happen with a truly united Ireland, it will be a celebration of a battle by those who ancestors participated, "winners" and "losers" both.

Here in the states we "celebrate" battles and skirmishes of our civil war. Union and Confederate re-enactors. Armed, yet. And the only "dead soldiers" are empty containers of beer.

No gloating. We gather to re-enact and to honor the more than 600,000 who died in that war.

I like your idea Paul Burke.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

Isn't a link meant to support your position on a certain subject? (Tyrone)

No, quite often not. Even in those cases when it is it does not follow that I agree with each detail or argument in the article.
But such a difference may be too subtle for those to whom "quote from" is the same thing as "link to".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: DRUMCREE MARCH DEAD AND BURIED
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:23 AM

The Dept of Public Works in the Republic are planning to make the Boyne site into a visitors centre.
The 1798 Rebellion already is marked with signposted 'walks' throughout Wexford, and although a Protestant-led rebellion, it is not acknowledged by the Unionist Right, at all.
Theobald Wolfe Tone was himself a Protestant

Triumphalism has to disappear, and in that Coyote Breath is correct.

Drumcree, The Lower Ormeau Road, Ardoyne, and all the rest of the '12th' marches are there to specifically 'remind' us that there is division.

The original battle (and one which the Pope helped to fund) has lost its significance over the years

Irish Nationalism has nothing whatsoever to do with religion; many people of the Protestant faith hold high ranking positions in official bodies dedicated to the furtherance of the Irish Language, Music & Culture; Gael Linn, Conradh na Gaeilge, etc.

This 'Protestant State for as Protestant People', that Ian Paisley still spouts at rallies as being the 'only solution', is as far off the mark as one can be, when one looks at the reasoning behind The Glorious Revolution.

We're a bit past the idea of the Divine Right of Kings, at this stage..

The Twelfth of July marches have been variously excused as the celebrating of war dead in both World Wars, the rights of citizens to 'Walk the Queen's Highway', etc., and the original purpose of the battle is long forgotten as a reason to celebrate the date.

It would be a little English people celebrating the 30th January 1649

Because that set it all in motion, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM

No, quite often not

You mislead when you do that Wolf track

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM

Interesting, Tyrone.

As a songwriter, McEvoy is in a league of his own

Do I have to infer that that's your opinion just because you have linked to a site on which that sentence was written? I would have thought that you gave the link for information and not necessarily because everything in there was your opinion as well.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:47 AM

I do happen to think Johnny McEvoy is in a league of his own, advancing Wolf, yes.

Problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

... wish to ask me about the link I gave above, Wolf pack?

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:01 PM

.... not doing too well here, are we, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:18 PM

It would be a little English people celebrating the 30th January 1649

Because that set it all in motion, didn't it?

Quite a few people do celebrate that date, and would like to celebrate a re- enactment of it on the third of that name.

But I think it had being going on for quite a while, names like Feach Mac Hugh spring to mind, then there was the bit before that... but certainly, the need to find (someone else's) land to pay off Civil War troops was a big factor in the NI settlement. I think, though, in any case, simple surplus progeny would have led to a similar class of come- down descendants hanging onto the coat tails of the establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:22 PM

Hanging on to power, Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

You beat me to it, Pete ;-)

"... and would like to celebrate a re- enactment of it on the third of that name"

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

Look, Wolfgang, it's a question of what the contribution is.

For a man that claims to have been in Ireland as much as you have, you could not have failed to notice a few things about the balance of society in the North.

Now, I don't necessarily wish you to go into your observations too much, unless you are prepared to admit that either you are deliberately taking the piss on occasion, when you present your observations about the situation here, or are just trying to wind up the situation, while you sit back with your usual detachment.

Either that, or you have a blockage somewhere, Wolfgang.

You know as well as I do that that Der Spiegel link was riddled with inaccuracies, and all you saw fit to call it was 'Interesting'.
You have discerned more from less in other opinions you have proffered, and you have been more than vocal when the mood has taken you.

I really don't like time-wasters, Wolfgang, and either you are one, your powers of observation are not what you would have them to be, or you are intrinsically anti-Irish.

Because for a man who supposedly understands the wheels of the World, you cast your incisiveness aside, and become just like the rest of the crowd in the Colosseum, as soon as the subject turns to the North of Ireland.

I have not seen a post by you, where you have provided a link favourable to the Nationalists, and if indeed the pattern of one's typed words on a screen can be used to determine the presence of mind of the poster, I would say there is always a certain degree of 'smugness' attached to your lyrics.

If you're anti-Irish, I'll slam you at every turn, Wolfgang.
Of that you may be quite sure, and we'll argue the fine print of link content til the cows come home.
You will always lose the argument, because as Amos said in 'Perception' the further away from direct observation your data comes from, the less likely you are to have the facts.

Don't let yourself believe that your take on any given situation is the correct one, Wolfgang; we're not going 'Man and Superman' on this, so get that notion out of your head without further ado.
You are as fallible as those you think you correct my man, and I think you are getting more bitter with the years.

Perhaps you should buy a television

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:59 PM

What is popularly referred to as the 'Ascendancy', Paul (see the Wolfe Tone link) have settled into the neighbourhood by now; more noticeably in the Republic. You see quite a lot of the 'old' families still inhabiting the Demesne, and you have the Knight of here and Lord So and So of there still knocking around from time to time, when they're not in 'Landen'..., at the 'Clab'.

As far as the working/middle class Protestant is concerned; there's not much difference in status, and discriminition between the religions is non-existant, as far as I can see.

The 6 counties, on the other hand, is polarised... for no good reason, I might add.
Working class Protestants have the same mortgages to pay as the Catholics do, and they have their own unemployment problems, as well; Harland and Wolff, Shorts, etc.

It was Partition that kicked this present (in an 800 year context, I mean) situation off.

Once the 'Ascendancy' were in the ascendant in the North, they denied the Catholics everything outside of that which was required to get them out of bed in the mornings, and in to work in their factories and linen mills.

It was a bit like having your own chain-gang.

This is now the 21st Century, Paul, and like everything else I suppose, the discriminition is starting to be shown up for what it actually always has been.
And that is starting to make a difference.
The World is becoming more politically correct, and bigots and tyrants are being tolerated less (unless they've oil, or something..., but that's another story...).

The Execution of Charles I is not a Public Holiday, I don't think, and the revellers at the re-enactments don't throw petrol bombs at Buckingham Palace after the drunken day out.

The Unionists however, turn places like the Garvaghy Road and Ardoyne into shrines that must be worshipped at, in the name of 'Glorious Protestantism', and all the fun tends to go out of it, all of a sudden.

Maybe the 12th of July should be given a period of quarantine as well.

Maybe In 150 years (because it will take a few generations) this idea of dominance can drift out of the mindset of the Protestant population, same way as it drifted out of the Ascendancy culture in the Republic.

Maybe if we had a United Ireland it would be easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Drumcree March Dead and Buried
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:34 AM

Wolfgang is as dispassionate as a rainy day in Ballymena.

... and always as exciting