Minister say's jamming OK in UK

Subject: Minister say's jamming OK
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM

"If it's just people singing along or jamming then it doesn't require a licence"

The Minister in charge of Licensing said this today on Radio 2.

You can hear it on 'listen again' on the BBC
website.;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/vine/

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:25 PM

Is he going to pay the fines when publicans are prosecuted?

That may be his opinion, but it is certainly NOT what the new law says.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:42 PM

Excellent news, if he's willing to make it stick.

A

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: ET
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:42 AM

It will be for the courts to decide, not him. And it will be the licensee who probably will not take the risk.

By the way only 25% of existing licence holders have bothered to apply for a new licence containing existing rights (or much fewer variations to include music!). THERE IS LESS THAN 2 WEEKS TO GO to get the application in - and it should be a correct application, not one that the local authority reject.

Ask your local publican. Ask if entertainment is included. TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM

Good advice from ET. Don't rely on ministerial statements. Ask YOUR landlord, and if he hasn't applied, persuade him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Torctgyd
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

He's probably thinking of being jam packed in a pub, watching football and singing football songs; which is obviously a lot less a cause of trouble than a couple singing unamplified in a bar!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM

Ask your local publican. Ask if entertainment is included. TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

This is good advice and we should be doing this to ensure that some form of live music can continue. At the same time we should recognise that which premises decide to apply is not finally a matter that we as indiduals - have much control over. It looks as if the majority of premises will NOT have entertainment permissision after November 2005 - so we should perhaps concentrate now on trying to ensure that some form of live music can still take place in these premises. As recorded and broadcast music still will be able to.

The Minister's legal advisors at the DCMS must be confident that such a statement can be the case under the Act (even when it does not seem to be the case under current legislation). However, given the words of the Act and the guidance to it - it is difficult to see things can
be any different.

But he has said this and a letter to your MP asking if your local event would be exempt and exactly what part of the Act the Minister and his legal advisors now consider allows this - may be useful in establishing the true position and give you something to present to your local authority (and licensee) to try and convince them. Such a reply would make interesting reading.

For as pointed out - unless licensees are just as convinced as our Minister and allow such a thing in the first place (without Licensing Permission) - jamming sessions etc in such premises are rather unlikey to happen. In one way the Minister is right. These   'jamming' sessions and singing along will probably not be actively prevented for lack of entertainment permission under the new Act - they just will not be very likely to start anywhere without this permission.

Where and if they did continue to take place - I suspect that a Local Authority's legal advisors would perhaps be giving different advice to ensure that the council did not fall foul of the Act in the courts - where the Minister's comments on a Radio Show - would not hold much sway.

Perhaps if the legislation does not support this statement - The Minister should resign or ensure that the Secretary of State changes the words of the legislation (and statutory guidance) - to ensure that the courts will accept such a position?

If saying it on a radio show is not enough - perhaps he should be forced to deny or stand by and repeat this statement in the Commons?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

Oh goody! Now I can buy a powerful noise transmitter and jam all these awful rackets I hear from passing cars? 100db of pure squeal down their ears?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: PennyBlack
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

and what does the man from the PPL think about it!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:51 PM

Yes I wonder. It was interesting the hear the Minister say that (along with the MU and others) PRS were going around trying to to pursuade premises to apply.....................

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

JEREMY VINE BBC R2 - Tuesday 19 July 2005 - 1.30-2pm approx.
Interview with James Purnell, and feedback from listeners re licensing and live music

VINE: If you are pub or a restaurant, or premises which sell alcohol or provide live music, you only have 18 days left to apply for a new licence which has been created by the government. At least 60% of all licensees are yet to apply. And if they don't meet the deadline of August the 6th they may have to close when the new Licensing Act comes into force in November. The government has come under some criticism for this new legislation. At the moment a single musician or a duo can perform in pubs and clubs without a licence. But, under the new Act all proprietors have to apply for permission to host any live music, whatever the size, so we're told. With so few clubs and pubs yet to apply musicians fear the legislation may lead to the decline of live music and we love live music here on Radio 2, so that's why we're discussing it. James Purnell is minister for licensing and joins us, good afternoon.

PURNELL: Good afternoon.

VINE: So now you're basically giving out a warning here are you, saying 'apply now'?

PURNELL: It's very important that people who sell alcohol or who put on entertainment, or indeed sell food after 11 o'clock, get their licence applications in by the 6th of August. Once they do this is going to be, I believe, a much much better system. It's going to get rid of some of the old arkike.. archaic rules like you know the 11 o'clock closing time for example which means that people end up necking two or three pints of beer then all being chucked out on the streets at the same to fight for cabs, and sometimes even fight with each other. I also think it's going to be much better for live music, actually, and I know there have been worries about this, but er, er I believe that this Act is going to be much better for live music. I'm a huge live music fan myself, and I think that's something which we, you know, will see a real benefit from here...

VINE: Because you've streamlined it, have you, so you, you used to have to bring out er an alcohol licence and then an entertainment licence separately, and now you fill out one form.

PURNELL: That's right. If you're applying for an alcohol licence in effect you only have to tick one extra box and er you can then get a public entertainment licence. And before you had to apply every year and there were lots of areas where people were being charged thousands of pounds for these public entertainment licences. There is this worry about what was called the 'two in the bar rule'. And there used to be an exemption for people, if two people turned up to play then that was OK. But our fear about that was that actually it massively distorted the, kind of, the market for gigs. You could have the White Stripes turning up, you know they've only got two people in their, er in their band they could turn up and play. But someone with three or four people, Coldplay or whoever, couldn't. So actually you had a distortion. We think it's much better to have a regime where music's properly licensed, and erm we think it will increase the number of areas of pubs that actually apply for those music licences.

VINE: But it seems that people are either objecting or they just want to live in ignorance about this because this, this form is trouble. Now how many, how many sheets of paper is this form?

PURNELL: If you're applying to convert your licence you have to fill in seven pages. The form's 21 pages long. But that's to cope with all the different regimes which we're bringing into one. So we're bringing six previous regimes into one and the form is 21 pages long so you can cope with all the, the various um, the various er reasons why people to apply. But you would only have to fill that in if you were a pub that was putting on dancing, cinema, wrestling as well as, um, you know, having er, applying for extra hours. So, actually most people only have to fill in the 7 pages.

VINE: Do you have to supply architect's drawings of your establishment?

PURNELL: You have to provide drawings of your establishments and that's because, for example, if you got, er, er, a nightclub everyone would expect it to be properly licensed for health and safety reasons, for fire reasons, and that's why, that's why that's there...

VINE: But you didn't have to do that before.

PURNELL: You did actually have to provide forms of your er, plans for the.... before, yeah.

VINE: Because it just seems people find this form a bit of a bind and they, and they and they may not be filling it out they may not be getting their licences because it's actually, it's another overhead they just don't need.

PURNELL: Well what we've done is gone from a situation where people were having to run off to the magistrates every time they wanted to put on a special event. So for example if you wanted to show a Lions test in the, early in the morning, or if you wanted to stay open late for Christmas Eve, people would have to go to the magistrates to get a special permission. And I think there were about 16 million of those a year. Instead of that we're gonna have people apply for a licence once, and then they never have to apply again. So that means we're front-loading the application process. So it's perhaps not surprising that people are worried about the burden they're going through now. What I would say is that the light at the end of that tunnel is they will have, they will never have to apply for it again. So it is going to be a much more flexible system, and overall we calculate it's gonna save the industry about two billion pounds over ten years, so there is work to be done now, but there's a real prize for doing that work.

VINE: Susan Mallett has just emailed and she say's 'Can you ask the minister why it's necessary to require a licence for nursery school assistants in a drop-in play group open to the public to sing along with two-year-olds... ' [laughs] er that can't be right.

PURNELL: Doesn't sound right to me. Ahm, the, the principle that we've put in place here is no different from one exists under the current Act, so there's no difference there at all, so essentially..

VINE: So they can sing without filling out a form...

PURNELL: It's not for me to say that, that would be up to their local authority. But the essential principle there is if you're putting on a piece of public entertainment, like a concert where you're advertising it, people were coming along to listen to a performance then that is what would need a licence. If people are jamming for example, or something happening in a play group, it doesn't sound like they would need a licence.

VINE: OK, she says you could put on a tape but if you join in with it you require a licence, that can't be right [laughs]...

PURNELL: Doesn't sound right...

VINE: And she says this, 'Can you ask the minister is he aware that nursing homes are cancelling musicians coming in to entertain the elderly and the sick. They are aware that if relations and visitors are present and they join in with the singing, they need a licence'!

PURNELL: Again that doesn't sound right to me.

VINE: Because you get into this bureaucratic thing don't you where everybody things they need a licence and they may not do.

PURNELL: Yeah. And the point is that there is no real difference between the Act as it exists at the moment, the law as it exists at the moment and what we're bringing in. So the point is if it is a concert and it's public entertainment then it probably will need a licence, and people would expect that. If it's just people singing along then it probably won't.

VINE: Let me just read some more comments that are coming in. Ashley Hunter's just emailed 'I understand that this Act applies to all live music in places like working men's clubs and church halls as well as pubs.' That is correct isn't it?

PURNELL: Well, er, churches are exempted from the Act.

VINE: Well church halls, though, village halls and so on.

PURNELL: Village halls would be included if they were putting on a concert, yeah.

VINE: He says it doesn't apply to live music in churches themselves...

PURNELL: That's right.

VINE: So people singing hymns don't need to get a licence. Adrian Fry emails and says 'I am a professional musician. This new legislation is unnecessary bureaucracy. Sound volume levels should be covered by the environmental health department. And when it comes to safety concerning numbers, each venue should simply have a capacity limit. There's no broader picture. Those are the real issues. Administration of anything else is a waste of public money and another example of New Labour creating a nanny state.' And email here from Paul Dixon in Rochdale who says 'Dear James Purnell, why did your department leave it until the third week of June to publish guidance for licensees on how to complete these application forms?'

PURNELL: Well that's not true actually. We, er, published, er we've been publishing evidence all the way through. We've been trying to make people aware of this, er, for the last two years. And people are often coming to us asking specific questions, and as they come up with specific questions we've been posting specific advice. But we've, we've published a wide range of advice and it's not right to say that we waited until June.

VINE: Judy Warlham in Stratford on Avon says 'we've had to apply for a licence as a school to put on entertainment and serve alcohol and it's actually not as daunting as you might think'. You have a supportive listener there.

PURNELL: Here here!

VINE: Mandy Friend in Croydon says 'I was on a hen night in a pub and we started singing "You've Lost that Loving Feeling", the whole pub joined in and...' er, this, no this can't be right... 'the bouncers then stepped in and were very cross and they said we had to all stop singing because we did not have a licence for live music'. Come on, could that happen?

PURNELL: Well that presumably is under the current regime, under the current law before the new law comes in. But certainly under the new law when it comes in, that we think that would be fine. If it's...

VINE: A hen night on a night out, in a pub that doesn't normally have live music, no problem...

PURNELL: The the principle I think is fairly clear which is if it's an entertainment, where you're advertising it, people are coming along, paying, expecting to see live music that will require a licence as it does now. If it's just people singing along or jamming then it's not, then it doesn't require a licence.

[DISCUSSION OMITTED RE PROBLEMS FOR TRAVELLING CIRCUSES. PURNELL SAYS HE IS CONSULTING CIRCUS REPRESENTATIVES AND LOOKING AT THE 'ISSUES']

PURNELL: ... But the point is this is an Act that covers 190,000 people. As it comes in there will be some anomalies, some issues that we need to look at. We've put in a review process and where there is evidence of real problems you know we are committed to acting on that.

VINE: And it won't hurt live music in pubs and bars in this country?

PURNELL: We think it will be good for live music. As I say it's going to be an easier process people won't be being charged thousands of pounds. We're working with Feargal Sharkey and the Live Music Forum to get people to apply for these public entertainment licences. The Musicians' Union, for example, are visiting all the pubs where people play to get them to apply. The PRS society are doing it, the agents and concert promoters are doing it. So, we, I really really am working to make sure this is good for live music rather than having a system before where if there were two of you or less you could play, but if not it was very very hard.

VINE: OK Thank you very much James Purnell MP, minister for licensing, in charge of all this, thanks for your time.

PURNELL: Thank you.

[MUSIC INTERVAL]

VINE: ... we were talking to James Purnell who's the minister in charge of this Licensing Act. And Roger Heywood from Norfolk is managing a small circus and you're very very concerned indeed...

[CIRCUS DISCUSSION OMITTED HERE. 'TOTALLY HEAVY-HANDED AND COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE SMALL TOURING CIRCUS', SAYS ROGER HEYWOOD. HE MAKES THE IMPORTANT POINT THAT ALTHOUGH NOT LICENSED IN THE PAST, CIRCUSES WERE ALREADY VETTED UNDER HEALTH AND SAFETY LEGISLATION]

VINE: .... The Two Lips, er, have just emailed, well Mark Kelly from the Two Lips which is a duo. Of course at the moment duos can play without a licence. Under this new law they will need to be licensed. And he says: 'We're a musical duo struggling to make a living in the south west. This new licence could spell the end for us. How can two self-employed musicians ending up on the dole be any good for anyone?'. Howard Bragen emails and says: 'I am a working musician as well. I rely on casual engagements in pubs, in restaurants, bars, hotels. From my point of view I shall probably lose a great deal of work because of the two in a bar exemption disappearing. It looks like I am looking at life on the dole from now on.' This is terrible news. This is all to do with this one particular thing, the provision that says the licence must be there for any live music from now on, whereas previously it was only if it was more than two people. Susan Violino from Frome, is that Susan? Hello.

SUSAN VIOLINO [on phone]: Hello Jeremy.

VINE: You Frome in Somerset are you?

SUSAN VIOLINO: Yes that's right.

VINE: It's nice down there isn't it.

SUSAN VIOLINO: It's lovely, yes, a lovely rural spot.

VINE: And you have a restaurant.

SUSAN VIOLINO: We do yes, run by my husband who's a chef, and myself.

VINE: Now is this a restaurant where, where you get a guitarist wandering around playing at tables?

SUSAN VIOLINO: No, not at all. No, our problem is completely different. All we wanted to was extend our licensing hours, our supper licence and the hours where we can, er, provide alcohol by literally a couple of hours a day. But in order to that we had to fill in a, an enormous quantity of forms and make plans etc as I was explaining to the person on the phone. I had to do 204 photocopies.

VINE: No!

SUSAN VIOLINO: Yes! You have to send them to environmental protection, public safety, planning enforcement, protection of children from harm, fire and rescue, trading standards, etc.. you know...

VINE: That sounds a bit like overload.

SUSAN VIOLINO: Yeah, it has been. I mean, you know, it's been difficult to run the business, you know, as we're only a two man team and do all this paperwork as well.

VINE: But at least, the minister's gone now, but he did say it is a one-off thing.

SUSAN VIOLINO: I know, but he, I heard him speaking on I think it was the Today programme on Radio 4, his quote something like 'all you have to do is put a tick in the box'. I mean the forms have been so complicated, so difficult. I'm not an unintelligent person but I really found them hard. Also drawing up to scale plans of your premises. I mean why? You know, we hadn't had to produce any plans until now.

VINE: And what about if somebody suddenly bursts into song while they're eating a meal in your restaurant!

SUSAN VIOLINO: Oh, [laughs] I don't know about that!

VINE: Is that legal?

SUSAN VIOLINO: That remains to be seen.

VINE: Susan, thanks and good luck with it.

SUSAN VIOLINO: OK, all right. Thanks. Bye.

VINE: Chris Finch is in Devon, not the Chris Finch I assume, and says: 'If the whole pub spontaneously bursts into song - that is legal. If you organise the pub to burst into song, you need a licence.' Nick Bird in Clevedon in Somerset says 'I'm a degree educated man. I've just received these reams of info that I need to fill in to get a licence and I've found that it's a minefield. And the worst thing is if you get it wrong you risk not getting your licence in November'. Lots and lots and lots of calls on this. Rosemary... here's one more for you. Rosemary Hilyard in Slinfield says 'Because our village hall has had to apply for a licence the parish council can no longer meet there. Parish councils are not allowed by law to hold meetings in licensed premises. We have taken advice.'

[MUSIC INTERVAL]

VINE:.... [we were talking about] licensing and the, er, what seems to be a new scheme of licences which is not receiving widespread approval [laughs]. Nick Edwards outside Maidstone in Kent says 'No-one's been mentioning the cost of this. We've just had to apply for our licence. Last year it cost £26. This year it's going to be £600. We are a non-profit making sports and social club.' We have very... an emailing from Welwyn Garden City who says 'Why do we have to be different in this country from any other country in Europe when it comes to music licensing? France, Holland, Italy, Germany, Portugal, Austria and Switzerland, they don't have these complicated rules.' And Roy Turner in south Wales says ' I was on holiday recently in Croatia. We were outside a bar having a drink, having a good time and there was a group of Croatian musicians at the next table. Suddenly, spontaneously they started singing and produced some instruments. And they then spent two hours singing to us and enjoying themselves. How can it be that in this over-regulated country that now would not be allowed to happen?' Geoff Winship in Exeter, good afternoon to you.

GEOFF WINSHIP [on phone]: Good afternoon Jeremy.

VINE: Now I understand you run a medieval jousting tournament.

[DISCUSSION OMITTED HERE CONCERNING WHETHER THIS IS COVERED BY THE NEW ACT]

[MUSIC follows to end of show at 2pm]

ENDS

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: ET
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM

I wonder if the Minister really understands his own act. What a mess!

I presume he thinks that "jamming" is musicians playing for their own pleasure and maybe keeping traditional music alive. But its not his interpretation that counts - its the courts - and just as important, not getting chucked out by a confused and frightened landlord or landlady.

I think there will be an explosion of anger over this. If James Purnell likes live music, as a Minister he ought to consider the mess he has inherited from the wretched Kim Howells and consider whether this can be saved by Ministerial statutory instrument - like removing live music from the list!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Unless the pubs get their fingers out sharpish it won't just be singing and music that'll be barred, it'll be drinking. I was talking to someone working for a local council, and they are getting rather worried, because if that happened the councils won't be at all popular...

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: ET
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

My local authority is buried with applications - "no chance of even looking at all of them by 8th august. Problem is if they are incorrect. They could be rejected and have to start again "out of time" as it where.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Government dosn't blame local councils for not processing the mess on time!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:16 PM

The pubs will blame the councils, the councils will blame the Government, the Government will blame the councils, and the punters will blame the publicans. I'd blame them all.

What I suspect will happen is that there will be a last minute amnesty and extension of the deadline announced.

These guys really couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery...

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:33 PM

here we go again

If you can tolerate a Morris man dancing all night, you do not need a licence. The Lord Reedsdale incorporated a "script ammendment" that said for Morris dancing, or similar, any musician may play unamplified and not qualify as entertainment. Not only have I seen the script ammendment, I have a letter from the Lord Reedsdale thanking me for the ceilidh dance (similar see?) named "Lord Reedsdale's Clause" which can be found on my website > ceilidh dance sequences.

So there you have it, Football (on telly) and Morris are not entertainment. It's official.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: freightdawg
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:36 PM

Okay, I'm a yank and really don't have a dog in this fight (quite yet, anyway).

But here's hoping that you all can get this figured out really quickly. Anytime a politician is surprised by actual language in legislation that he/she supposedly supports it is bad news.

204 photocopies? Yikes!

Best of luck to you session players and performers. To borrow a southern expression, sounds like you have a real tiger by the tail.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:44 PM

Your right Mcgrath, they coudn't, 'cos it wouldn't be licensed. Not by August 6th anyway.

Significantly, the one pub that is exempt is the members' bar at the House of Commons.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

"Morris dancing or similar... Now I wonder if this would count? Bawdy Woman Jumpin Jack Doll

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:14 PM

If you can tolerate a Morris man dancing all night, you do not need a licence.

Hooray! Our problems for sessions etc are over.

All you have to do is ask the licensee if they mind having Morris Dancing all night in their pub. Complete with bells, hankies and banging bloody great sticks together.................I am sure they will agree.

And then make sure that they don't stop dancing. For if they should stop dancing - the music - without the dancing - will then be illegal without entertainment permission.

This may make you may laugh - but it is perfectly true. Thank you for all your efforts - Lord Redesdale.

And some people still want to do away with the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:42 PM

So if a bunch of us want to play Old Time music in an unlicenced pub, all we need is an Appalachian dancer doing some flat footing to make the whole thing legal?
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM

well I collected 100's of names for the anti-pel petition last year.

didn't make a ha'peth o' difference to 'nanny' - who also seems to have totally ignored 1000's of people protesting on line.

i'll carry on 'illegally' singing, & other forms of self expression regardless- they can imprison me & all the other folkies!

BUT!

if this SHIT! does really manifest itself in prohibition of our innate right to sing, then perhaps we should approach the problem in a similar way to these examples from the past:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Trespass_of_Kinder_Scout


http://www.simondawson.com/phseiont.htm


Militant Folkies Unite!!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

The law is framed so that any self-important "civil disobedience" you engage in will harm the licensee, not you. Nobody will arrest you; but he or she may lose their livelihood. Do you still not understand that?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:13 PM

malc,

thanx 4 yr support

u mist the point

open yr eyes!!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:16 PM

It's yr privelege to slag me down- that's easy.

But much more difficult to think about doing something yourself about this issue.

Tell me what have YOU done?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

No less than you, I think.

You appear completely to have failed to understand the legislation. If you can find a licensee who is prepared to commit professional suicide, by all means go ahead. You will, I take it, be prepared to put your money where your mouth is, and see them right once you feel you've made your point.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

I've pm'ed you on this issue- but you've ignored it.

I'll ask again-

Do you have any suggestions what to do next?

Or do you just want to score points by put downs?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

PM? Haven't seen it yet. I don't check them often. There are very few things that aren't better discussed in public.

This isn't about point scoring. It's about behaving sensibly and constructively; and that's something you have to decide for yourself. What do you propose to do that will not hurt others?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:51 PM

I've pm'ed you again!

Don't u want to respond? [in private]

I don't want a fight- we should all be standing together on this issue!!

Please say, either via pm, or on here what your strategy is to overcome this threat to our civil liberties & freedom of self expression!

Thanks in advance,

Mr H

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM

nite-nite Malc!

Thanks for SFA!


PS I"ve pm'ed you on Folkinfo[e] also.

Are you a Folkin foe?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:09 PM

malc,

chek yr pm's

but in your words, 'There are very few things that aren't better discussed in public'

well let's do it in public then- do you have any suggestions or proposals?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:24 PM

So's I kno me adversary- are you able [honest, courageous, other +ve adjectives] to add some details here?

I checked the 'locator'. It says you are in Yorkshire UK.

I'm in Chester UK.


http://www.mudcat.org/photos/profile.cfm

http://www.mudcat.org/photos/photo.cfm

Please say by PM or here what you'll do when the new legistlation starts to bite.


I know I'm putting you on the spot - but u started it!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:27 PM

BTW Malc- did you look at the lynx?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:44 PM

The law is enacted. We can't change that. All we can do is try to ensure that licensees get the new license, and help them with that if necessary; meanwhile cataloguing the inadequacies and inconsistencies of the law, and of the ministers who pronounce upon it without understanding what it actually says. Forward precise and detailed dossiers to the MU.

All this has been said many times before; by me among others. Must I repeat it all yet again? Civil disobedience only works if the people who do it are the people who must take the consequences, which is not likely to be the case here. You must surely understand that.

I know it isn't exciting, and will take a long time. Legislation since the Poll Tax has been designed to ensure that martyrdom is usually impossible, and that dissent only harms others. Knock off the personal messages accusing me of being simultaneously "apathetic" and "the enemy" simply because I point out that what you propose will just hurt potential allies and alienate others, will you?

You don't need to tell me who you are. I already know. You can find out about me via the usual search engines if you particularly want to (hint: I use my real name, and I'm not the crocodile farmer, the actor, or the retired fireman).

We are not adversaries. I will, however, have no hesitation in telling you when you are talking crap. That is for the benefit of the cause.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:50 PM

'We are not adversaries. I will, however, have no hesitation in telling you when you are talking crap. That is for the benefit of the cause. '

Do you really think it's 'CRAP' [Your word!] to protest about what's happening?

What planet u on??

AND


You still didn't say what your strategies/suggestions are/may be!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

Just spotted yr website here:


http://www.malcolmdouglas.com/midwinter/index.html


So u r an illustrator- the pel laws won't affect you!

As far's I can detect, there's no prohibition of doing drawing on licensed premises- no wonder you're so blase on this topic!

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:58 PM

above post was me

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:06 PM

I don't just draw pictures, of course. I also do general design and DTP work, and run extensive websites for The South Riding Folk Network and Yorkshire Folk Arts: the former I took over from the original webmaster, the latter I built from scratch. I built this site, come to that (lovingly hand-coded to html 4.01 transitional specs, no less) and I've recently put together a new site for the Folk Music Journal. If you want a clean and simple website that will display consistently across a wide range of browsers, you might do worse than to talk to me about it.
The English Folk Dance and Song Society recently published my revision of the classic Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, re-titled Classic English Folk Songs. I didn't get to design the cover, but they let me choose a couple of the photos.


*************



Beg yo' pardon suh!


You're really a folkie! (as long's they let u design their website & let u choose a couple of the photos!)

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:15 PM

Can't you say where you stand?

***********


Enough's enough on nonsense!

Anyone have any sensible suggestions on how to tackle this prob. of seshes being shut down etc when it arises?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:32 PM

I'm a bit younger than you (only 50), but I've played in pub sessions for a quarter of a century or so. I don't need to offer credentials on that or anything else.

I've already told you what the only workable current strategem is in my own opinion. Read the post, please; feel free to disagree, but don't presume to accuse me of not caring. Protest is vital, but it must be done responsibly if it's to work. Hurting other people in order to make your point is not the way.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 02:22 AM

The law is framed so that any self-important "civil disobedience" you engage in will harm the licensee, not you. Nobody will arrest you; but he or she may lose their livelihood. Do you still not understand that?

The point is well - if a little harshly made among those who are on the same side. But where it was certainly the case that licensees were needed to take the risks in any musical defiance under current legislation - it is less the case under the new Act and shouldn't be used as a cop-out and a reason to do nothing.

For this Act makes (practically) any live music illegal anywhere - without Premises Licence entertainment permission. So I am sure that there are ways that effective protest action can be undertaken - where there is a will to - that will only place those taking part at risk.

An example that springs to mind is a Morris Side (on public land) using one amplified instrument - to bring attention to the fact that this is illegal.

Or live music performances from the back of a moving vehicle.

I am sure that many more can be thought up. Of course any protest action will have to be carefully arranged so that we keeep or improve on the public's sympathy and do not actually harm the cause. But I am sure that with a little thought - many ways of doing this can be devised - where there is a will to do so.

It is not as if the pro music lobby has not tried most of the conventional routes to try and bring this nation's attention to the damage this Act will do to our basic and traditional freedom of musical expression. What really frustrates me is the fact that this action came so very close to throwing this terrible piece of legislation out completly. It was only Lord Redescale and his Lib Dem peers voting with the Government that saved it.   

And he gets a dance created for him. Perhaps it should be called The Traitor's Dance?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 03:19 AM

So if a bunch of us want to play Old Time music in an unlicenced pub, all we need is an Appalachian dancer doing some flat footing to make the whole thing legal?

That it probably correct but you would first have to convince a licensee (without entertainment permission) that the Local Authority also saw it the same way and ensure that the poor souls didn't stop dancing. Convincing the licensee will be the main problem - as from my experience - there will be no shortage of folk prepared to dance to Old Time music...........

But this is almost a complete reverse of the the current situation generally - where there is a partial exemption for (small scale) live music - but where any dancing is illegal without a licence.

If the point of this licensing is to ensure the safety of the public - it hardly makes sense that exactly the same music but without the risky business of dancing - is considered more unsafe and requires entertainment permission.

In all truth Morris Dancing did not need the exemption - for it was never at any real risk - under the old or new legislation. For local Authorities and the powers that be - did know what it was. The real problem of the new Act was presented to the other folk arts - which are less understood by them - like mumming plays and sessions etc.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: ET
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 03:39 AM

This debate is interesting but unfortunate. What Shambles says is accurate. This is legislation and the Government will not change its mind whatever-Hazel Blearse from the Home Office even defendent 24 hour opening against 1 m plus crimes of violence so nothing will change for music.

And it is generally the premise owner that carrys the can, not the musician.

I have copied the radio broadcast of Vine and James Parenell revealing the Minister does not understand his own legislation, to local press and local commercial radio broadcasters, and to my MP but I don't anticipate changes, other than vague ministerial statements that the legislation will be kept under review.

I fear its a case of "go with the flow" or else!   Make sure your local licensee has applied for the entertainment variation.

I have also raise other, non pub issues, like village fetes that have jazz bands to entertain. They will need a licence, and wont bother. They could have fire eaters breathing flames over the crowd without a licence but have a JAzz Quartet and a licence is needed. Things like Art Galleries which have open evenings with a string quartet to entertain need a licence. (can you imagine the trouble that playing a Bach Violin Solo might bring!)

Happy Days

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 04:01 AM

I submitted the licence application for our Sailing Club several weeks ago. In the course of doing so, I spoke on the 'phone to the lady heading up the Licensing Department pointing out that we had held ad hoc and advertised live music sessions in our Clubhouse for some forty years although our original Magistrates licence imposed no conditions in this respect. She agreed that we could "tick the box" under the "grandfather rights" clause. I spoke to her again a couple of weeks after submitting the application, promarily because the police had acknowledged receipt, but the LA hadn't, and she informed me that our forms were on the "approved" pile.

My experience would appear to indicate that the Local Authorities are really more interested in raking in the extortionate fees (GBP190 in year one, GBP180 a year thereafter in our case - cf a Magistrates licence at GBP15 for 5 years!) than in conspiring with the legislators to ban live music! However, if applicants are intimidated by the complexity of the application and the horrendous requirements if a variation from the existing licence is applied for (the restaurateur's complaint above is justified), then the whole new regime is going to be a total cockup.

We thought that we were going to have to complete the whole application until I spoke to the Licensing Dept, and that would have been far more painful and time-consuming. The need for plans was easy for us because we are currently applying for planning permission for a CLubhouse extension, though a local restaurant owner who was in the print shop when we were making copies complained that he had been charged GBP450 to have his drawn up.

As has been said many times before, the Licensing Act 2003 is thoroughly bad, ill-thought-out and unnecessarily complicated legislation, which is going to have repercussions that will, with any luck, give those imbeciles in Westminster a bloody electoral nose at some point.

But I should still have somewhere to play! Perhaps I could invite a few of you along.

Alan

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 04:43 AM

Mr Happy,

Malcolm Douglas is almost completely correct in stating that the licensee will carry the can for ill advised action on your part.

There is, however, one point he has missed. The new law imposes the same penalty on anyone organising, or providing facilities for, unlicensed music.

If you put together a protest by organising illegal sessions, you will be risking your own cash, and your own liberty, while those who merely join you will be safe under the law.

Can you afford to do that? I know I couldn't.

And before you start slagging me off, I've been an active folkie for 45 years, and I've been actively fighting this stupid legislation for the last four, without success.

The only way forward is to work with what we've got.

Get your landlord to apply, then be ready to rub Westminster's nose in it when the final tally of lost venues becomes evident.

They wouldn't listen to us as concerned citizens. What makes you think they will value our opinions more as criminals?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM

My experience would appear to indicate that the Local Authorities are really more interested in raking in the extortionate fees (GBP190 in year one, GBP180 a year thereafter in our case - cf a Magistrates licence at GBP15 for 5 years!) than in conspiring with the legislators to ban live music!

That is probably correct - at least for the early stages - when they they will be very busy indeed just trying to meet demand and make the basics work. Their need for revenue from the old PEL was really much of the cause of many of the problems presented to live music. An indirect affect - rather than any intentional attempt to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. There is also probably little doubt also that the legislators have any real intention of banning live music. However, lack of intent - does not alter the situation or the words of the Act.

We may think that without the direct connection between revenue and live music permission - there really should be no reason for the local authorities to come down hard upon any live music. Or rather upon any that may still try to take place in premises without entertainment permission. But we should not be lulled by this - in the short term.

For our legislators have ensured that there really is very little live music making that will be legal and our Local Authorities (whatever their view of live music) will find themselves in breach of the law - if they are not seen to be taking enforcement action.

We should of course do what we can to ensure that most premises do apply - but not to limit ourselves to this action exclusivly - for (whatever the take-up) this will not be the total answer to legislation that has made the public's free musical expression anywhere - an illegal activity.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: ET
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:47 AM

I hope there will be a recognition at some stage that there will be electroal repercussions. There was not much sign of it at the last election. I am not however advocating a change of Government but recognition by the existing lot that they have made a pigs ear out of this.   Even the extended drinking, seen originally I am sure as a vote winner, is now a vote looser.

It nears the air of bad publicity. The Lawyers/Performing group are working on someting around these lines.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:49 AM

Well the minister's statement makes fascinating readong. It seems fairly clear he says jamming is OK...though there is nothing in the legislation to support his view, as far as I can see. What is vaguer is exactly what he means by jamming. When I was a lad, jamming met playing in an improvisatory style, as opposed to using an arrangement(written or head). And there was a possible implication that the muscians jamming together were not part of a regular group.(Though a formal group could jam as well, so it's rather confusing). But what exactly did the minister mean? It would be useful to try to get a definition out of him. I would guess he means muscians playing together for fun. But what if the pub adverises "acoustic jam session"? I dont believe he is saying that is perfectly legal, because that position is obviously completely illegal under the new law. So what did he mean, exactly?

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:54 AM

Another point that worries me a lot is the legal position of musicians who play fro Morris dancing(or flatfoot, or clog). It is OK when you are playing for the dancers, but what about the intro you play before the dancers start? I understand this is illegal( in unlicensed premises). You could get round this by counting 1234 and then both starting together, I suppose. Unless they classified counting 1234 rhythmically as music....questions like this need answers, you know.

Subject: RE: Minister say's jamming OK in UK
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM

So what did he mean, exactly?

There is only one to find out. That is for us to write to him (via a letter to our MPs) and get him - or rather his legal advisors - to explain the words of the Act that enable his statement to be the case.