TES slur on folk music

Subject: TES slur on folk music degree
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

In the TES (times educational supplement - www.tes.co.uk) last week there was a little snippet about dumbing down of British Universities. One piece of evidence of said dumbing down was that Newcastle Uni were offering a folk music degree.

Indignant letters from those participating in or teaching said course might stop them getting away with these things so lightly.

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:15 PM

" folk music degree"

Seems like a lot of money invested to spend the rest of your life asking people "Paper or plastic?"

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:17 PM

A link to the quoted article might help us evaluate the gravity of the said slur.

Was it a slur by the TES, or were they quoting?

Much more detail is required before we get worked up about this.

Nigel (possibly rising to the bait, but not too far!)

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

Sorry, can't find the article on-line using search facility. I can't quote it to you either, as it was a friend's copy and she took it away with her after she showed it to me (she knew it would annoy me).

Anyway it was just a little snippetty article, with a very brief mention, probably not worth bothering yourselves with.

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

Hard to tell whether that's really a "slur" on folk music or a slur on the way certain programs are conducted. The academic study of folklore & folkmatter (obviously including music) has been pretty well respected for several hundred years, from Percy through Child, etc. So it's doubtful that anyone aiming at credibility would badmouth that. OTOH, if some school's offering Master's Degrees in the Kingston Trio, then Clinton's comment might well be right on the money, though certainly some graduates would also have to master "You want fries with that?"

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

The Newcastle course is an exceptionally good one - high musical standards and solid ethos. Karen Tweed was one of the early 'movers and shakers' and David Oliver is very closely connected. It brings in a lot of high standard lecturers as well. It's fairly new, and I think I remember hearing that this is the first year to produce graduates.

I imagine that anyone could contact David and get a copy of the article. I also imagine that he will be responding if he hasn't done so already. Would that there were more courses like this one.

siân

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

I imagine this comment was made by someone who doesn't know or care about the likes of Child, Sharp, Vaughn-Williams, etc, but was making a joke. Aran sweaters anybody?

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: shepherdlass
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

Yes, Scaramouche probably has hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a fair bit of folkie-bashing in the media at present (anyone seen that ad on British TV which shows folk as the epitome of bad taste?). Anyway, the assumption that academic study of any kind of popular culture is somehow a "Mickey Mouse degree" always makes me laugh - after all, if it wasn't for the pervasiveness of popular culture, the detractors would not have a name on which to hang such a witty (!) and original (!!) put-down.

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:26 PM

Taking the piss out of "folk music" or morris dancing is the usual last resort of the ignorant and lazy breed of journalist, who probably only has a degree in "media studies" (cue raucous laughter) in any case.

Not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with media studies, you understand; but there's the ever-present danger of stone-damage in that particular glass house.

Haven't read the TES in years. Would someone quote the piece for us?

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:27 PM

A year or so ago, Nick Spitzer, host of the folk music/roots music program that NPR offers, "American Routes," was in Seattle (and yes, even though the program is about roots music, Spitzer uses the word "routes" in the program's title—following various "routes" to finding "roots" music). He dropped into KUOW, our local NPR affiliate, where he was interviewed for about an hour by Marcy Silman, one of KUOW's regular newscaster/interviewers.

Now, Marcy Silman is normally a very sharp, intelligent woman, but I have heard her on the air long enough and often enough to be aware that she is not omniscient. Although the breadth of her knowledge is really admirable, there are some definite gaps. And folk music seems to be one of these gaps.

When she introduced Nick Spitzer, reading from his CV, she encountered the fact that he had a degree in folklore. "Folklore!??" she asked incredulously. "You can get a degree in folklore?" As if a degree in folklore was like a degree in tiddly-winks*.   It had never occurred to her that folklore could be a subject of serious study.

Some people just don't have a clue.

Don Firth

*Now, of course, the Olympic Tiddly-Winks Champion is going to get on my case. . . .

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:38 AM

The ' Times ' is now just another tabloid piece of junk, like the ' Sun ' or the ' Star ' how can anyone take it seriously ?

eric

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:31 AM

What?   Less seriously than a degree in folk-music?

Pretty easily I'd think...

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:30 AM

A touch of jealousy creeping in here I think

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:45 AM

Apart from some specialist classes how does Newcastle's degree differ from any other music degree?

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:23 AM

Hmmm ... as you reap then shall you sow.

If the early practitioners hadn't been so damned exclusive - insisting that a popular movement be turned into a middle class pursuit (I can remember turning up at The Grey Cock in Brum in the 70's and being told ...your influences are Ralph McTell, I'm sorry we've got to draw the line somewhere - you can't sing here!) . then you wouldn't have the nonsense of a folkmusic that repels a large part of the population.

Surely a degree in folk music wouldn't raise an eyebrow at a French, Irish, or American University. And far from being a passport to unemployment, if we had a truly living folk culture - it would be widely respected.

best wishes

Big Al

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:01 AM

Much is ignorance. I used to think Morris dancing was dull and silly, but once you actualy look into it, fascinating.

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:50 AM

Much of that ignorance stems from the fact that Radio and TV have sold out to the big record companies to the extent of allowing them to dictate playlists.

If you look at the record of the very few presenters who refused to comply (e.g. the late, and much lamented John Peel), their programs always had a folk element.

It's long past time for us to make our feelings known, especially to organisations like the BBC, supposedly public service broadcasters, but unless we all hit them at the same time with a concerted barrage of complaints about discrimination, they will continue to ignore us.

Don T.

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

I misread, I thought we were going to hit them with concrete - bits of concrete - i thought - that's a good idea!

concerted efforts

conduct away! I will follow!

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:42 PM

Much uninformed comment but nothing concrete about the degree.

Is the institution Newcastle University, International Centre for Music Studies?
A BMus in Folk and Traditional Music is offered. It is a four-year course towards the Batchelor of Music Degree (optional two-year diploma), with strong entry requirements and a course of study including all phases of music and musical history. Musical performance as well as the contexts of folk music, composition, the teaching of music, and music business are required. The fourth year requires a dissertation, a performance or composition portfolio, or a technology project (production of a cd, etc.)
Advanced studies and degrees are offered at this well-known institution.

Certainly not a progression towards short order engineering at MacDonald's but a firm professional foundation for a teacher, a performer, a specialist technician, etc.
BA Music

Subject: RE: TES slur on folk music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:05 PM

Yes, that's the one. The trouble with the TES is that their writer, like most jobbing journalists, probably has very little idea what folk music actually is. I repeat my request that someone post the (apparently short) piece of text.

The Guardian's Education Supplement started out more promisingly, but unfortunately paired the B Mus in folk music with "Applied golf management studies", available at Birmingham. There was no mockery, though.

Graduates blow a mighty wind