BS: Expressions and where they came from

Subject: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

I know we've had lots of threads on colloquialisms, etc., but I'd like to know if anyone knows the origins of the following, please. I've not seen them mentioned before:

"Billy bedamned!" As in, "It was hotter than Billy bedamned!" I know what it means, just wondering who was Billy and why was he "damned?"

Also, used as an expression of shock/awe/digust/surprise: "Well, good night!" OR, what I remember my mom saying, "Well, good night, Nurse!" Anudder Mudder asked her 92 year old mom about this one and she remembered using it, but NOT with "Nurse" at the end. Where did it come from?

One her mom contributed was "My stars and garters!" I love that! LOL!

Oh, and one more comment on how times have changed: saw the old movie palace ad for "Jezebel" starring Bette Davis, on TCM the other day. It was bold, it was dramatic. It showed her being wooed by the men who loved her and all manner of upset. At the end it said something about "She got LOVE, when she should have been WHIPPED!" Whoo-eee, that turned my head a bit!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:56 PM

I've heard all of those,kat. No idea of their origins.

What about 'Heavens to Betsy!' Sounds simple but what??

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: sixtieschick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:24 PM

"Goodnight Nurse!" was a Buster Keaton film.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

Sixtieschic is on to something. Alot of expressions in popular culture come from popular culture-songs, movies, TV, commercials, etc.

Two examples come to mind:

"Where's the beef?"-from some TV commercial {about something???}

"Show me the money"- from a movie starring Cuba Gooding {and ??? movie name ???}

Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with folk music-but this is the BS thread, right? Right!

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

PS:

It just occurred to me that that sign off is from a part of popular culture in that it was popularized by the title of a Reggae song composed by the late, great Bob {Robert Nesta} Marley

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:47 PM

Kat, my mother, too, said "Good-night-nurse!" My answer was, "Good night, nurse." That presentation may not come over in print. Hers was stressing each of the syllables, where mine was a mocking, almost singing version. I guess you had to be there.

It's not took strange that both your family and mine would have that phrase, because as I remember you, too, have roots in or around Rochester, Minnesota.   Or was that only Leland's branch of your family?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:50 PM

Sorry, Sixtieschick, I just noticed that I misspelled your name in my post.

Though I'm sure you're chic!!

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

All such memes originally come from a popular source - in the early usuage days those using them know they are 'referential' - but then they take on a life of their own (that's WHY they are 'memes'!), and people lose track of how they started.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:04 PM

"people lose track of how they started."

Yes, but just as some people are "in to" the origin & meanings of words, and the etymology of most [??] words can be traced, there are people who are also interested in researching the origin & original meanings of expressions. *

There's tons of books and websites on the subject.

Origins of Cliches is one such site.

[disclaimer: I just glanced at it so don't know how accurate it is]

* I'm interested in the origin & meanings of words {especially
personal names and slang}. I also am interested in expressions-
IMO, both of these are fun ways to learn more about history and
cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:32 PM

"My stars and garters" can be found here, which I have found reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: khandu
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:28 PM

My grand-dad often began statements which he wanted to underline with "Aye, gannies". Who knows where that came from!

My grandmother would would express wonderment with "Well, I swannie".

I have no idea of the origins, but I surely miss hearing them say it!

ken

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:35 AM

The site I linked to on my last post also covers 'billy-be-dammed'. Use the search function on the left side. Now...

Can any one tell me where 'Great guns and little fishes' comes from? Google and half a dozen other search engines were no help. The closest to an explanation I found was seeing it in the table of contents of a book on nonsense. I once had a teacher - good one, too - who said that at least once a day.

khandu:

'I swannee' is probably the same thing as 'I'll swan', which is just a way of saying 'I swear'. 'Aye, grannies' is a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 02:06 AM

I don't know about 'Great guns and little fishes';, but 'Ye Gods and little fishes!' was a fairly common exclamation of surprise/disgust etc in the Uk in the late 1940s.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: JennieG
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 03:51 AM

Not quite "Heavens to Betsy" - but we often say "Heavens to Murgatroyd".

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 03:56 AM

'Ye Gods and little fishes!' was already a cliche when Arthur Quiller-Couch wrote his classic 'Troy Town' in 1888.

I suspect that it was simply designed to sound like a classical quotation, allowing the speaker to say 'god' without the accusation of swearing. Many expressions of surprise etc. ultimately prove to be minced oaths or euphemised indecencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:14 AM

JennieG, it was Snagglepuss who used to say "Heavens to Murgatroyd!"

In fact, I remember he used to say "Heavens to Murgatroyd - heavens to Betsy even!" - I've used that a few times myself. Then there was "Exit, stage left!" - also Snagglepuss.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:21 AM

I had a neighbor when I was a boy who used to say, "Jesus Christ on a hardwood ridge."

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

Thanks, folks! mack, great site! My friend will be reading the bit about stars and garters to her mom. It wasn't at all what we'd expected.

Kendall, I used to work with a woman who's say, "Chirst in a crutch!"

Had forgotten about "heavens to murgatroyd!" Thanks for the reminder of it AND Snagglepuss.:-)

Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:44 AM

Sheesh! I just realised Mudcat taught me about that site a long time ago; I even used to get a weekly email column from the guy. He's revamped the look of it, so I didn't recognise it. Thanks for updating my memory, mack! I searched for billy-de-damned, though and turned up empty. Would you mind posting what it says or a direct link to that page, please?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM

Billy-be-dammed is menioned in passing at the end of this article.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

Surely 'show me the money' is from Jerry Mcguire?

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM

I have heard 'most' of those expressions...with "Jesus Christ on a crooked crutch" being the expanded form of one. (But I never heard 'Billy-be-dammed'). I have learned that a lot of the common ones my parents used came (to them) from movies or popular songs in the 20s, 30s and 40s. Once mass media was in, some of the forms got 'set' by being associated with a famous person...who may have gotten it from oral tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

Uncle Dave O, sorry I didn't answer you, earlier. Glad to hear of someone else's mom who added the "nurse"...gues sit must've come from the movie mentioned, though I doubt my mom got it directly as I don't think she was allowed to go to movies much...too many kids in the family for the cost, plus probably not up to her Victorian parents' standards.

My dad's Hudson side went from upstate NYC in 1854 to Michigan according to my ggranddad's obit. I've been unable to trace where in Michigan. As far as I know, nothing in Minnesota, but they do seem to have travelled around! Sorry, I don't recall any "Leland" branch. It's quite possible I have forgotten some of the genealogical stuff I've posted over the years and may have wondered about the Minnesota area when asking about ship-building preparations for the war of 1812 in the Michigan/Great Lakes area. Thanks!

Thanks for the link, mack...I should have read the whole article!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

As a good Amishman, my father never swore- but, much to my mother's disapproval, would sometimes exclaim, "Well, I'll be kicked!"

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM

There were a series of books out some years ago that addressed the origins of common and funny expressions. As I recall, one on simile was called "A Hog on Ice" (as in, as independent as a hog on ice) and another was "Heavens to Betsy." I kept thinking they would be fun, but never ordered them.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:21 PM

..since Hector was a pup.

since Christ was a cowboy.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

Until the cows come home- Why?

It escapes my mind- what is that expression meaning that the evening is still young?

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:58 PM

By the way, I never use the expressions I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:09 PM

"Heavens to Murgatroyd" is also used in place of Betsy, no idea why. Billy-be-damned is, I think, an Aussie or Cockney expression. The evening is young when there is plenty of evening ahead of you, as is anything that is early in its life-cycle!

Ebbie, if you sit in the barn and wait for the cows to come home, you'll wait a while. They have a lot of inertia and can't tell time real well. If you're lucky, they might come home after dark wondering why no-one told them what time it was!! That's why small boys on farms are sent out with switches to round 'em up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:55 AM

These days, instead of saying "the night is young!", we say "the night is just a pup!" - means the same thing. Of course in the circles I move in, it's usually said to someone who thinks of leaving a session at the shockingly early time of, say 1 in the morning :-)

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

Humped up like a hog going to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Helen
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM

refresh - in relation to 'ye gods & little fishes' thread

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

Holey moley!

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 09:09 PM

"rode hard, and put up wet."

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:09 AM

Many of the expressions we use come from the sea.
Kick the bucket
Leeway
Scuttlebutt
Gangway
Anchor to windward

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 09:49 AM

OK, why is "kick the bucket" considered a nautical expression?

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM

Kick the Bucket could be a nautical expression for hanging someone aboard ship? Perhaps the unfortunate chap had to stand on a bucket before it was kicked away. I am only guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 09:45 AM

If that were true, it wouldn't be the dying man, but the executioner who kicked the bucket.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 09:50 AM

FWIW ~ from The Phrase Finder ~~~

Kick the bucket
Meaning To die.
Origin
We all know what a bucket is - and so this phrase appears rather odd. Why should kicking one be associated with dying?
The link between buckets and death was made by at least 1785, when the phrase was defined in Grose's Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue:
    "To kick the bucket, to die."
One theory as to why, albeit with little evidence to support it, is that the phrase originates from the notion that people hanged themselves by standing on a bucket with a noose around their neck and then kicking the bucket away. There are no citations that relate the phrase to suicide and, in any case, why a bucket? Whenever I've needed something to stand on I can't recall ever opting for a bucket. This theory doesn't stand up any better than the supposed buckets did.

The mist begins to clear with the fact that in 16th century England bucket had an additional meaning (and in some parts it still has), i.e. a beam or yoke used to hang or carry items. The term may have been introduced into English from the French trébuchet - meaning a balance, or buque - meaning a yoke. That meaning of bucket was referred to in Peter Levins' Manipulus vocabulorum. A dictionarie of English and Latine wordes, 1570:
    "A Bucket, beame, tollo."
and was used by Shakespeare in Henry IV Part II, 1597:
    "Swifter then he that gibbets on the Brewers Bucket." [to gibbet meant to hang]
The wooden frame that was used to hang animals up by their feet for slaughter was called a bucket. Not unnaturally they were likely to struggle or to spasm after death and hence 'kick the bucket'.

~~ Well, mebbe ~

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 05:29 PM

I thought it had something to do with the buckets of sand that they spread around on the decks to make the blood less slippery. There was plenty of blood spilled in a sea battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 06:44 PM

Gloryosky, Zero, that's quite an explanation, MGM.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 05:50 AM

Thanks, Q ~~ but as I hoped I had made clear, I had simply cut/pasted it from a site called The Phrase Finder, which I found by the simple expedient of googling the phrase in question & then clicking on one or two likely-looking sites. I am in fact often amazed by the extent that people ask questions here, & others go to all sorts of lengths to answer, when a few minutes on google or with a reference book would provide the answer ~~

~~~ just-like-that!!!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:30 PM

Is google making common mortals erudite?
Is it the substitute for the Book of Knowledge? Encyclopaedia Britannica? Or the Yellow Pages?

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: banjoman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:29 AM

One which a good friend of mine always used when someone said something like "If only ....." was If only my auht had balls she,d be my uncle - not sure of its origin

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: kendall
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM

My Father used to say "Shit a goddam"
"Son of a whore" is common in the Northeast.

Subject: RE: BS: Expressions and where they came from
From: Musket
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM

Whale oil beef hooked.