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BS: History Quiz

The Fooles Troupe 02 Aug 05 - 08:30 PM
kendall 02 Aug 05 - 07:58 AM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM
Cool Beans 01 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM
ranger1 01 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 12:09 PM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 11:42 AM
Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM
Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 10:34 AM
Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 10:29 AM
Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 10:24 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 09:26 AM
freda underhill 01 Aug 05 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 09:04 AM
freda underhill 01 Aug 05 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 06:20 AM
number 6 31 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM
kendall 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 05 - 11:09 AM
Dave Hanson 31 Jul 05 - 09:31 AM
kendall 31 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM
number 6 30 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,NH Dave - new browser 30 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Mrr 29 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM
katlaughing 29 Jul 05 - 03:22 PM
John Hardly 29 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM
wysiwyg 29 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 12:05 PM
wysiwyg 29 Jul 05 - 11:58 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM
wysiwyg 29 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM
kendall 29 Jul 05 - 11:40 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 10:58 AM
freda underhill 29 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM
Emma B 29 Jul 05 - 10:48 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 10:47 AM
Emma B 29 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM
Paul Burke 29 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM
kendall 29 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM
alanabit 29 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM
freda underhill 29 Jul 05 - 09:41 AM
Emma B 29 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM
Shakey 29 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 Jul 05 - 09:36 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:30 PM

Amos has a point -

at the moment Australian Political life is in the grip of 'extremists' (The elected Government!) moving to prevent compulsory student fees at Universities (side effect - shutting down services used by some, but not all at once, students), making 'bludging' people on unemployment and disability benefits and single mothers go back to work (the side effects are being debated now), the elimination of all working conditions built by unions in the last 100 years (abolition of unions, holiday and long service leave, social - parental etc leave, lowering of pay rates) under the delusion of competing with Chinese workers who get paid $30 a month,

etc, etc, etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: kendall
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:58 AM

...Italians hate Yugoslaves, South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM

R1:

The breakdown in human affinity precedes the search for reasons.

The question needing answering is, how does the presumably natural affinity engendered by seeing members of your own species, breakdown into irritation, resentment, antagonism and hatred? It is not just cultural because some people have the same breakdown about members of their own tribes or bands or herds or flocks.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Cool Beans
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

Somebody must find that Davy Jones and stop him.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: ranger1
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM

Why is it that people spend so much time and energy on looking for reasons to not like one another? If all that energy was channeled into something positive instead of something negative, this world would be a much better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:09 PM

Well, ALL the atrocities of our history have been perpetrated by extremists, obviously -- some Muslim, some Christian, some Hindu, etc.

The issue is not what superficial label they wear -- extremism is ALWAYS on the prowl for rationalization, because if such people had the spine to confront the irrationality of their own thought processes, they would soon stop being active extremists.

ALmost everyone harbors pockets and eddies of hatred here and there. The difference is whether or not you identify and merge yourself wholly with those eddies, thus becoming a full-blown psychotic, or whether you stand int he balance between them and more rational kinds of thought, thus becoming your run-of-the-mill neurotic.

If we could, we should round up all the psychos. But, unfortunately, there is notechnology to detect from the outside who is harboring this sort of psychosis within them. There are a million well-mannered diguises, as artful as anything in the MOMA. Besides, you would be stepping on the toes of many of our most successful citizens!!

The only point of merit in the Stupid Perfessor's post is that extremism is ugly, violent, and anti-social. Age and cultural group have little to do with it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:42 AM

If a debate is the purpose of this thread, then make it specific. Not some half wit cartoon history quiz. The issue regarding radicalized muslims is a serious matter, I'm sure everyone here at the Mudcat has some intelligence to realize that. The matter of how this thread is presented is in itself an insult to everyone here if not to humanity. If the 'ol professer or you want a debate, construct a thread with with the subject explained in a muture meaningful format, with some direction to a solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

I can't tell you what point he's trying to get across, I can tell you what point it makes to me: we have a problem with some radicalised muslims.

The posts that follow it make the point that some people think we're not allowed to talk about it. I have news for them: in the real world the debate has startedand it sin't going away anytime soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM

Then tell us what point he is trying to get across.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:41 AM

Guest 10:34

Try reading the thread before you dive in with your sloppy logic. The originator has never said what you state which makes your pitiful attempt at irony just a tad weak. Nice to know you read books though.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:34 AM

Now that we have the point that the 'ol professer is trying to get across here and that is rounding up all Islamic males between the ages of 17 and 40 I have to bring up some issues here.

1. if we commence rounding them all immediately, (which we must do now) how do we control the Islamic male population that will turn 17 within the year, or the next consecutive years. I'm sure there will be some hatred to the infidels inbred from this next wave of male pipoulation. I also have some concerns of the older male group and even the Islamic female population. Their subsequnet anger will only infuriate them to carry out more violent acts against us. The women and older males are very capable in executing these tasks.

2. How will cover the costs of all these incarcerated people? It will certainly mean a heavy tax increase to the western countries. Don't forget we should not lessen our Homeland Security to offset the costs of sending these Muslims to their designated holding areas. In fact we should increase our Homeland Security even more. We should setup monitoring cameras and tap the phone lines of all the population, for their will certainly be sympathisers the Islamic population.

Solution to point 1. I suggest we round up all Islamic people regardless of age or sex.

Solution to point 2. I suggest we setup industrial centres in the designated holding areas. This will certainly offset any costs. It will also allow us to provide cheap labour to the western world. It will free us from outsourcing our manufacturing industries to the Orient.

In initiating the above it will not only make our world a much safer place to live, but it will certainly make it a Brave New World.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:29 AM

Freda writes:
the average serial killer is a white male from a lower to middle class background

And how do we know this, experience and this information is used by the Police in profiling, on the other hand we could just ignore all the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:24 AM

"Let's have an open invitation to all the white supremist [sic] groups"

Well I'm ready to take on the racists, what are you afraid of?

Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, we have to destroy their credibility. And I'll take you on over free speech in my spare time.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:26 AM

"There is a growing air that certain subjects must be left alone, and are off limits. This way of thinking is dangerous. Debate should always be open."

Good point. Let's have an open invitation to all the white supremist groups. They should be allowed to post their profund thoughts here on the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:12 AM

if you want to make generalisations, GUEST, statistically, the average serial killer is a white male from a lower to middle class background, usually in his twenties or thirties.

Using your logic, we'd kill all white males from those backgrounds in their 20s and 30s.

Because a red headed person with buck teeth kills someone, we do not therefore go and slaughter all red heads with buck teeth.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:04 AM

"Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40"
"The Nazis did not single out a group of jews by their views or age, they wished to murder all jews."

We got your point. Let's round up every Islamic male between the ages of 17 and 40.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:00 AM

I think I demonstrated in my version of the ol professor's "history quiz" that there are terrorists in many cultures.

That first post should be called "propaganda quiz" not history quiz. I agree that this is the same sort of ugly demonising that happened in nazi germany, and still happens all over the world to many people of many different cultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM

If people are unable to discuss an issue, why don't they leave the thread alone, instead of telling us it should be 'thrown out.'

There is a growing air that certain subjects must be left alone, and are off limits. This way of thinking is dangerous. Debate should always be open.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:20 AM

Why ... what point is getting across here.

Well I don't know what the original poster's intent was bit I know what mine is. Islam is not off-limits.

  • Ask Salman Rushdie
  • Ask Theo Van Gogh's family

Why single out muslims

If you read the original post properly you'll find it states:

"Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40"

I fail to see how this is demonising all all muslims.

This type of crap is not unlike Nazi stereotyping of Jews in the 30's

It is most unlike nazism. The Nazis did not single out a group of jews by their views or age, they wished to murder all jews. There is a group that strongly resembles the nazis, it's a bunch of radicalised muslim extremists, who, by the way, would like to murder all gay people and subjugate all women just for good measure.

Study history guest, maybe you will learn something, then maybe you won't

Agreed, maybe you won't

Don't expect anymore replies from me on this pathetic thread.


Good


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: number 6
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Why ... what point is getting across here. Why single out muslims. This is just the type of racist fear hype that is typical in times such as ours. This type of crap is not unlike Nazi stereotyping of Jews in the 30's. Study history guest, maybe you will learn something, then maybe you won't. Don't expect anymore replies from me on this pathetic thread.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM

I've known many people in my life who could never admit being wrong, or, heaven forbid, apologize.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:09 AM

number6 said
Throw out this thread

sIx


Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 09:31 AM

Guest, the ole perfessor simply listed a series of factual historical events,with a common denominator, Freda, your similar list has NO common denominator, so what's your point ?

The truth hurts, get used to it, it's better than political correctness or being shit scared to say anything in case you offend a muslim.

When the British Army fought in the Gulf war to save and defend muslims, they were made to remove Marks and Spencer lables from their clothes in case muslims were offended by this Jewish owned company.

I'm just eggsasperated by it all.

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

"They" are the nut cases who don't really represent Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

Throw out this thread

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST,NH Dave - new browser
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

The initial post was a good argument for profiling on racial appearance or habits, some of which may have happened recently when the British police took out a presumably innocent passerby. My take on that particular incident is more, "Why did he run if he was innocent?", rather than, "Oh the poor man!" Our police frequently must make snap decisions based on their training, experience, and past history; that they might not have made in the cold hard light of reason, well after the point. For every decision by a police person or combat soldier, there are a thousand people moaning that the event was patently unfair, the police/military are all rabid bigots/terrorists - you chose the word - for acting on the spur of the moment in a manner that they might not have chosen were they given more time to make a decision.

    My take on this parallels the quote, "Diplomacy is the art of murmuring, 'Good Doggy', until you can reach a bigger stick!"

    What many people don't know, realize, or wish to admit, is that the School of the Americas is/was a school, originally started in the Panama Canal Zone for members of South and Central American military. Citing it as a main source of Latin American tyrants is like blaming Irish elementary [the first 5-6 years of school] schools as being hotbeds of bigotry and incentives to riot and murder, as a very large of the combatants on BOTH sides were educated there. Having actually SEEN this institution when it was sited in Panama, and served with a USAF Latino who actually taught there; electronics in his case, that the amount of torture or repression actually taught in this school is far overshadowed by the amount of down to earth, soldiering subjects taught there. Its prime function is to insure that various nations in that part of the world are actually playing from the same sheet of music. It serves the same purpose for people in that area as the SAS training course in England serves for the fortunate officers of allied services who are good enough to be selected to attend this outstanding training.

    Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Hey, you forgot that on April 18th, 1983, (pick three silly possibilities or the Extremists) blew up our embassy in Beirut. Then (different extremists) blew up our embassy AGAIN in 1984.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:22 PM

I thought the initial posting was a bit of irony to show how stupidly extreme people've gotten in automatically assuming a Muslim is involved in all evils of the world. I can see how it could be taken, differently.

I agree with Kendall.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

"John Hardly

Din't you mean to say

"But Mum, he hot me back first" ?"


No. "First" instead of "Too" implies that the rationalization is about continuing an on-going conflict rather than "justification by equal guilt". If the crusades were the justification for islamic terrorism, the Vatican, or Christianity, would be the target.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

I didn't say I don't like thread creep...

Worse-- have you ever say in a bar with someone who DID talk about the same thing all night?!?!?!? Sometimes that seems like a fair description of my life in ministry! :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:05 PM

Fair enough, personally I don't see anything wrong with thread creep. Have you ever sat in a bar and talked about the same thing all night.

I happen to like Neil Young.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:58 AM

Shakey, I'm mostly responding to a side issue raised within the thread-- it's that old favorite around here, "thread creep."

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM

It's not about whether or not the hate is justified it's about the justification of the original post.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

I think all humans can hate, and that humans can provoke "justifiable" hatred. The question is, what does one DO when one hates? Does one choose to act toward reconciliation, or toward harm? That's an ageless question I think we all face on a daily basis, in ways large and small.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM

Who are "they" Kendall?


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:40 AM

Justification depends on which side you are on. Just because we have shat on them for years is no reason to hate us.
How can any thinking reasoning person believe that they have no reason to hate us?


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:58 AM

Yes Emma I can understand your definition and I wasn't trying to preach (with a small p :-)).

I believe that part of the problem is that we have become tolerant of intolerance. Hence, we could ignore this thread but if the man (i'm fed up with the he//she bit - let's assume non-pc but who cares) is a bigot who wants to demonise ordinary muslims then let's show him he's wrong and we support them, if, on the other hand he is trying to make a point, that other people have made in a better way, well then we just have to debate it.

Shakey

In, "trying to fight bad boy image" mode


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

Whoever posted that History Quiz, I think we are saying - everyone is tainted. No one is in a position to point the finger - every group - every race, religion and country has its dark corner.

And in every country, there are people who work to promote peace and reconciliation between polarised groups of people.

Which side are we on? do we choose to be constructive or destructive?

freda (midnight musing)


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:48 AM

BTW Shakey ...I'm sorry you regard sexual language as obscene ...this initial post is my definition of obscenity!


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:47 AM

PB I can agree with alot of what you say about us but one thing is unclear, who are "they".


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM

ok ....

Freda referred to the atrocities committed in Ireland and Mainland UK by young Irish men mostly between the ages of 17-40
Do I believe that they maimed and murdered their fellow men in the name of a Protestant or Catholic God? - no I think it was because of years of perceived (and in many instances actual) grievous political and social inequalities and impotence to change the situation. I am unaware of anyone quoting the Bibles teaching of "an eye for an eye" as causation

As many people from abroad identified with these struggles and by their funding and other means of support kept the bombing going it is not too difficult surely to consider that disaffected young men from any culture (including an Islamic one) seeing those with whom they feel an infinity also subjected to dispossion would feel similar anger.

Being from a Western cultural upbringing where, until relatively recently suicide was seen both as a sin and a legal crime, I can understand the puzzlement with which "we" regard suicide bombers (this was reflected during WW2 as well)and regard it as very alien

A more profitable discussion would look at the causes of these actions not merely at their effects however horrendous they may be. It is just too simplistic to quote "9/11" the Palestinian and Iranian interventions preceed this.

It is also interesting to note that another recent poll discovered that over 2/3rds of British people made a direct connection between the recent bombings and our role in the invasion of Iraq!

Now.....will someone please explain to me the Christian fundamentalism that encourages and condones the bombing of doctors nurses and patients in abortion clinics?


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM

They have good reason to hate us. We have good reason to hate them. Someone else has good reason to hate both of us. They do something bad, we do something badder, they do something wicked, we do something worse, they do something truly evil, we nuke them, oops they've got genetically modified smallpox...

How about a slightly different approach? We sort OUR side out, as we can do something about ourselves. Stop gobbling the world's resources, stop one sided trade 'agreements', stop exporting arms to dodgy regimes, stop propping up tyrannies, stop torturing prisoners, stop imprisonment on suspicion, stop invading and exploiting other people's lands....

And let THEM sort THEIR side out- as seemed to be happening in Iran before international posturing made liberals there look like traitors.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM

Why is it that so many 0f us just can't accept the fact that they have good reason to hate us?

You may accept they hate us.
You may accept they have reason to hate us.
I hope you're not saying that this is justification.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

Why is it that so many 0f us just can't accept the fact that they have good reason to hate us?


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM

Thank-you Freda. I had already seen this garbage published elsewhere. I hope I don't see it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM

There are many good reasons for discussing the teachings of Islam, and indeed all the other major World religions

Well discuss them then instead of diving into obscenities. This person only wrote the first post you may write as many as you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:41 AM

I agree with Emma, Guest.

f.u.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM

Thank you Freda for the perspective......

What is the "intent" of the initial post if not to incite religious hatred?

There are many good reasons for discussing the teachings of Islam, and indeed all the other major World religions but this post adds nothing to that process it is as offensive to people of all religions as it will soon be illegal

Now "guest" - if you can't crawl out into the open ....fuck off!


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM

Din't you mean to say

"But Mum, he hot me back first" ?

I doubt it!

Non-partisan point.
Brilliant thread title, who on MC is not going to fall for it? We all did. They know their audience.


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Subject: RE: BS: History Quiz
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:36 AM

John Hardly

Din't you mean to say

"But Mum, he hot me back first" ?


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