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BS: Rigging the Election

Amos 31 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM
DougR 31 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM
Amos 31 Jul 05 - 04:39 PM
Don Firth 31 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,clogger 31 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,TIA 01 Aug 05 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,TIA 01 Aug 05 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,G 01 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,G 01 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM
Shakey 01 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM
CarolC 01 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM
DougR 01 Aug 05 - 01:05 PM
CarolC 01 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 01:43 PM
Ebbie 01 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM
Peace 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM
Don Firth 01 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM
DougR 01 Aug 05 - 07:22 PM
Ebbie 01 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM
Kaleea 01 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM
Don Firth 01 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM
Don Firth 01 Aug 05 - 08:40 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 08:44 PM
Amos 01 Aug 05 - 08:47 PM
Bobert 01 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM
Uncle_DaveO 01 Aug 05 - 09:56 PM
Peace 01 Aug 05 - 10:00 PM
Don Firth 01 Aug 05 - 10:22 PM
Peace 01 Aug 05 - 10:26 PM
Bobert 01 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM
CarolC 01 Aug 05 - 11:53 PM
Peace 01 Aug 05 - 11:59 PM
number 6 02 Aug 05 - 12:14 AM
CarolC 02 Aug 05 - 11:35 AM
Amos 02 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM
Peace 02 Aug 05 - 12:12 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 01:23 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Aug 05 - 02:01 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 02:18 PM
number 6 02 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM
DougR 02 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM
DougR 02 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM
Amos 02 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM
GUEST 02 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM
number 6 02 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 03:37 PM
number 6 02 Aug 05 - 04:10 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 04:33 PM
pdq 02 Aug 05 - 05:05 PM
Amos 02 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM
number 6 02 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 07:37 PM
DougR 02 Aug 05 - 07:48 PM
pdq 02 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM
pdq 02 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,Jon 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM
Peace 02 Aug 05 - 08:12 PM
Ebbie 02 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM
Amos 02 Aug 05 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,TIA 02 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM
Peace 02 Aug 05 - 10:20 PM
Amos 02 Aug 05 - 11:15 PM
Bobert 02 Aug 05 - 11:31 PM
Don Firth 02 Aug 05 - 11:37 PM
Bobert 02 Aug 05 - 11:58 PM
CarolC 03 Aug 05 - 12:13 AM
Amos 03 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM
CarolC 03 Aug 05 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Depressed 03 Aug 05 - 12:55 PM
Peace 03 Aug 05 - 03:54 PM
TIA 03 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM
GUEST 04 Aug 05 - 11:38 AM
DougR 04 Aug 05 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 04 Aug 05 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,G 04 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,G 04 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM
Amos 04 Aug 05 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,G 04 Aug 05 - 02:48 PM
Don Firth 04 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM
Amos 04 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Jon 04 Aug 05 - 03:31 PM
CarolC 04 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM
TIA 05 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM
Peace 05 Aug 05 - 09:25 PM

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Subject: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

At this site (http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm) there is a video of testimony by aprogrammer who asserts that he wrote a program to throw the elections in the state of Florida.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM

Still fighting the battle of the 2000 election, huh, Amos. I listened to the tape. A lot of opinion, speculation, etc. No proof, however, that such a program, if it was developed, was used. If there was proof there would be headlines in every newspaper around the world. I've seen no such headlines, have you?

It is the stuff from which conspiracy theories are hatched.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:39 PM

Testimony under oath, Doug. The guy swore he developed it at the instructions of a superior, for the purpose of winning the election in Florida. Or didn't you listen all the way through.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM

Doug, you leave me speechless!

But not quite! If it were the Democrats doing this sort of thing, you'd be leading the charge. But when there is the possibility that this kind of electronic election rigging results in your party getting in, it's just fine and dandy with you! You just blow it off. Man, where is your sense of ethics? Do you think cheating on elections—just as long as your party gets in—is the American Way?   

Political advisors and campaign managers with the ethical sense of those such as Karl Rove count on the fact that the Jeffersonian ideal of an informed electorate is shaky at best these days. Misinformation promulgated by the corporate owned news media and general voter apathy is what they count on. But the ability to switch a few bits and bytes here and there just makes sure that there will be no "mistakes." Just the possibility of this kind of election rigging should be enough to have people—Democrats and Republicans alike—rioting in the streets. And you right along with them.

No, this is not just fighting the 2000 election all over again. This is deep concern about the future of democracy in this country.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Call me a misguided cynic but......YES
Diddn't Bush (snr) delay the release of the hostages untill he was President? Lowinski's mother keped "the" dress in a deep freeze (just in case)to discredit Clinton! George W had a dodgy ballot form set up in at least one state! What makes you think it is fixed. Looks like the good ol' USA from here!!!!
I always wondered where they got the characters for "Deadwood" from ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:56 AM

When the allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib first surfaced, DougR's one-word response was "horsepucky".

He never explained whether this meant that 1) it didn't happen, or 2) if it did, he didn't care.

Above, Amos got the verbose version of horsepucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:58 AM

By the way - here's the real conspiracy clue...that guy looks just like Larry Bird!!!! Coincidence????


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM

Puhleeze! The ballots in Florida ended up going through many MANUAL recounts by both both officials and CBS, NY Times, CNN, etc.

Manual - that means looking where the 'hole' was punched. maybe even dimpled. "Testimony under oath" has lost its' importance. Remember WJC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:50 AM

You are missing the point, Dildo-breath. This is an egregious, explicit and overt attempt to throw the mechanism of democraticprocess into the trash. This is the Republican party playing Boss Tweed, Tammany Hall, miring the basic structure of our life in their self-serving webs of self-interest.

The point is not the elections. The point is intentional criminal erosion of our best processes and undermining our global structure in the interests of petty local identities. This is criminal abuse of power.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM

Smooth intro, Amos. I admire people of intellect and good grooming
so this IS NOT a compliment to you.

"The point is not the elections". Obviously I misread the thread title.
Another prime example of desparate people searching unverified Blogs
in order to continue their excerise in futility.

Software? Most card readers are programmed with a hardboard panel and patch cords. Although a throw back to the 60's, it was probably the safest method of voting if a person would want their vote to be counted as cast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

Amos, what did the police say when you reported it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM

Feeney, who had run in 1994 as Jeb Bush's running-mate in his initial unsuccessful bid for Florida Governor, was serving as both corporate counsel and registered lobbyist for YEI during the period that Curtis worked at the company.

Feeney was also concurrently serving as a Florida state congressman while performing those services for YEI. Feeney would eventually become Speaker of the Florida House before being elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2002. He is now a member of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee.


Surely there's at least some sort of illegal conflict of interest there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:05 PM

Surely there MUST be.

My comment to you, Don Firth, is when was this stupendous story reported on CNN? Perhaps while I was on vacation?

Do you and Amos (and any others) truly believe that a story of that magnitude would not have been reported by the networks and liberal press if, in fact, it proved that the election was rigged? If you do, I have some ocean-front property etc. etc.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM

I don't think anything has been proven yet, DougR, but the man did testify under oath. That, combined with Mr. Feeney's conflicts of interest, certainly warrant an independent investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:43 PM

Unverified blogs? Excuse me, but that was not an unverified blog, it was a video of a state Senate investigation. Or do you think in your fantastic rationalization that a bunch of whacko liberals put on court garb and set that whole thing up?

Maybe you feel the democratic process SHOULD be sold out to the slickest operator, pal, but I do not. It seems to me you fail to appreciate the historical reasons it was such an unusual and valuable idea in the first place. Or perhaps the history of the species is irrelevant to you, as you are still trying to figure out which one is yours.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM

Doug's reaction reminds me of a similar reaction by my sister to a very different situation occurring in professional sports.

A couple of us were talking about football (USA) Coach Woody Hays during a game punching out a player of the opposing side. It was an unseemly, unprecedented violation of professionalism. My sister- profoundly non-interested or experienced in sports - sniffed. It doesn't surprise me, she said. They do that kind of thing all the time.

My brothers and I looked at her in disbelief. There is no arguing that kind of stupidity.

Nothing personal, of course, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM

The August cover story of Harper's Magazine is about "What Went Wrong
in Ohio". They also have an audio file from a forum on the topic:

http://www.harpers.org/WhatWentWrongInOhio.html

Regards,

C

>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>

> Subject: Re: [IP] Video Testimony
>
>
> The panel holding the 12/13/2004 hearing consisted of Democratic
> members of the House Judiciary Committee. They were conducting an
> investigation into 2004 election irregularities. The unscheduled,
> surprise witness testified about the 2000 election in Florida. His
> testimony was requested to show that something similar could have
> happened in Ohio in 2004. The video has been available online since
> December.
>
> LT


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM

From the person who sent the link out :

Wow, I got lot's of hate mail regarding the video. Proof positive
that sending it to you was the right thing to do. When there is such
a negative response to something like this, it means more people need
to see it.

Thanks for posting it.

JB




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM

"It's not who votes that count, it's who counts the votes."

That quotation (or something like it) is attributed to Stalin--althought there is no proof he ever said that. But, there is truth in it anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Another comment on this video testimony, providing a bit more context:

"The Clint Curtis sworn testimony was given during the hearings organized
by John Conyers in December 2004. Rep. Conyers brought the hearings to
Columbus, Ohio to focus attention on the machinations of Secretary of
State Blackwell, who refused to testify at these hearings. Plenty of
other people did testify, including the bombshell of Clint Curtis'
surprise appearance. Conyers' book "What Went Wrong in Ohio" was the
title and reference for the Harper's article and documents the facts and
testimony from these hearings.

The press has largely ignored the issue and these hearings. I have not
heard whether any credible reporter has even thought to ask Rep. Tom
Feeney whether these allegations were true. Since these hearings, Feeney
has been caught up in the Delay lobbyist payola scandals. Feeney was on
the DeLay-Jack Abramoff golf junket to Scotland, and has been one of the
biggest takers of DeLay cash. Why would we not believe the programmer?
Perhaps only if the context of the video could not be validated.:"

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM

Doug—and others—I am not talking specifically about the 2000 or the 2004 elections. Although there is plenty of indication that there was hanky-panky in Florida in 2000 and similar questionable procedures in Ohio in 2004, I don't know whether the vote was cobbled or not—and neither do you!   It is a fact that in Florida in 2000, some 57,000, people were denied the vote on the basis that they were convicted felons, and that it was later proven that the information against them was false. Most of these supposed "felons" were black, and according to electoral history, it was fairly safely assumed that about 90% of their vote would have gone to Gore. So what really happened is still up in the air and merits a thorough investigation, which, under the Bush administration, will never happen.

What I am talking about is the information revealed on the film clip that Amos posted to. If you actually watched it, and listened, and paid attention to what was being said, then it should be clear to you that the mechanism for fixing elections is now in place—and was in place back then. The fact that now elections can be fixed this easily should have you very apprehensive about the future of democracy in this country. That is, if you really care about democracy and not just having your preferences in power.

Just remember:   this kind of thing is a two-edged sword. It can cut both ways!

You can't just "horse pucky" this one away, Doug, and consider yourself to be a good American. I don't think you are a stupid person, but I sometimes wonder what it will take to rouse you out of your smug complacency.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:22 PM

Don: I don't doubt that elections can be rigged. I doubt, however, that they were (the ones in question).

Neither you, or Amos, are addressing the question of why the mainstream press hasn't been on this story like flies on you-know-what. It can't be because they are in the pockets of the hated Republican Party, surely you don't believe that.

Ebbie: I do not take it personally. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You live in a neat little town by the way.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM

I agree with you on that, Doug. smiles


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

"My brother promised me Florida. I believed him. I won."
                G.W.Bush to reporters right after 1st election


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM

I am currently reading First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea by Paul Woodruff, Professor of Ethics and American Society at the University of Texas in Austin (got that? At the University of Texas.).

This is a fascinating study of the history of democracy, with an incisive analysis of how democracy was conceive in ancient Greece, how it was put into practice in Athens, how it worked, and how it didn't work—warts and all. Woodruff doesn't make the mistake of positing a "golden age" of democracy in Athens; he points out that the Athenians kept slaves and that women were not allowed to participate in government (there were many men at the time who maintained that this was not right). When the democratic principles the Athenians attempted to live by didn't work, the reasons were pretty clear. But for the most part, many of the ideas they put into practice worked very well indeed, and we could learn much by examining the way they did things. The concept that not only should all citizens be allowed to participate, but that they should be required to participate was something they took very seriously.

For example, there were political factions, of course, but there were no political parties, certainly not in the way we have them now. And not just certain people selected by the wealthy elite were presented as candidates for public office. All citizens of Athens were potential candidates. In fact, all citizens were candidates. Education was a primary concern in Athens, so the literacy rate was high. It was expected of the citizens of Athens that they keep themselves fully aware of current events. To be well-informed. Because they might very well be called upon to be involved in making the necessary decisions. You see, public officials were not voted into office;   they were chosen from the citizenry at large by lottery. Like juries are selected today in the United States. Any registered voter can be called to jury duty at any time (and has to have a pretty darned good reason if they want to get out of it). And in ancient Athens, any citizen could suddenly find himself in public office. And it was his obligation as a citizen of Athens to serve if called upon. [Incidentally, public official's were paid reasonably well (not the $5.00 a day or whatever token stipend modern jurors get), so they didn't lose by it, although they certainly didn't get rich.]

I could go on and on, but I would strongly recommend that anyone who assumes that he or she knows how democracy works and what it is really all about—and how and why it sometimes doesn't work—should hie themselves to their local library and check this out. Or better still, buy a copy, read it carefully, and keep it handy for reference.

Among other things, Woodruff details and explains the seven requirements of democracy. And he ends the book with a chapter entitled, "Are Americans Ready for Democracy?"

Get it. Read it. Learn.

You might be surprised. You'll certainly look at the way this country operates in a new way—as if you've just wiped the fog off your glasses.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:40 PM

Doug, why this has not been reported in the press is a very good question indeed. You did watch the video, didn't you?

I really don't think that was put together by Michael Moore. But then, you seem to think so. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:44 PM

Doug:

There is no way to predict what the mainstream press will or will not cover; for the most part they are owned by the same interests who support big-business, and the ideals of the Fourth Estate are badly crimped and mangled by the large corporate ownership and the bedding of business and politics carried to new extremes since your bumbling hatemonger took office.

If you doubt what I am saying, explain why a reporter who declined to divulge sources for a story she did not write is doing in prison this afternoon. And be sure to 'fess up if you aren't sure what I am talking about; surely the duty of all good party members is to be able to defend party decisions, don't you think?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:47 PM

Don:

Thanks for the stirring report. I am going on line to find the book now.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM

When Greg Palist brought up the fact to the mainstream press that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris had rigged the 2000 election in Florida, the mainstream press ignored them... Some 5 motnhs later the Washington Post did runa short article on page A-17 about the evidence that Palist had tried to get the mainstream so-called liberal press to pay attention to....

If Dougie would reasd Palast's bok,"the Best Democracy Money Can Buy" then he'd know just waht went down... And he might even have a little understanding just why he doesn't know what is going down??? Fox ain't new's, Dougie. It's 24/7 brainwashing... It has nuthin' more to do with news than American Idol...

I loves ya, Dougie, but you are one *ignorant* guy...

Did you watch the entire tape that Amos put up here???

I doubt very seriously that you did...

Why? Becuase you are very comfy in yer ignorance... Hey, I don't mean that in any way to be disrespectful because lots of folks just really don't want to be bothered with stuff they don't like... Hey, that's purdy much human nature and it'as okay... I still likes ya and loves ya but you sho nuff ain't got no openess to yer mind... No judegment.... Jus' observation...

Now come on over here an' get a big hug, Big Guy...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:56 PM

DougR said, in part:

Neither you, or Amos, are addressing the question of why the mainstream press hasn't been on this story like flies on you-know-what. It can't be because they are in the pockets of the hated Republican Party, surely you don't believe that.

One of the great classical fallacies in logic is "The appeal to authority." The idea is that "If the president" --or Senator X, or whoever is highly placed "said X, then we should assume it's so."

DougR's quote above is in effect that fallacy, turned inside out, in effect, "If the authorities don't say thus-and-so, then it must be horse pucky!" And that, in this sort of case, is even more fallacious!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:00 PM

The press has become a sorry remnant of what it used to be. Once it was an important institution--generally respected and trusted. There are very few papers I'd trust anymore. Counting on the press to tell the truth or unveil corruption--hell, ya might as well let Washington write the friggin' news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:22 PM

For the most part, Peace, Washington does.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:26 PM

Of course, I wonder what the elected representatives of the American people are doing about corruption--other than being involved in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM

Well, lets not overlook the very real fact that 99% of big media is in favor if droppin' the FCC ownership regs, includin' what Dougie would consider the liberal media... These media fat cats have been all over Bush and the former FCC chairman, Michel Powell (yeah, son of Colin...) showerin' them with dough tryin' to get these regs dropped... Bush has also bent over backwards in tryin' to get them dropped... This would mean even greater media consolidation which would not only kill off local medai but also bring about a situation where Americans wopuld be hearin just one voice???

One voice ain't exactly what Tom Jefferson had in mind in warning that if democrcay was to survive it would do so based on an "informed electorate"... With one voice, that of Boss Hog's bought-n-paid-for governemnt, there ain't no reason to go wavin' no flags about what a wonderful thing democracy is...

Be nice to have democracy, tho.... Problem is is that is is DOA in the USA...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:53 PM

One hears and reads quite a few stories these days about respected journalists quitting their jobs at supposedly respectable news outlets because of pressure from people higher up in those organizations to not report things that would cause discomfort for certain people. Happens more and more often as time goes by.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:59 PM

Where are the Woodwards today? Where are the folks who will stand up and put it on the line? I had always thought these people were in government, in the news business, in the pulpits, in law offices, in courts, in police departmments, in the FBI. I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:14 AM

Rigging Elections .... this has been going on since the inception of the democratic voting process .... human fallacy ... were there is greed for power, greed will find it's way.

Didn't Joe Kennedy fix the electorial vote in the state of Illinois ... well, if he didn't directly 'fix it' he urged some shady organization to do the actual dirty work, to ensure John would win.

Rigging Elections ... it's all part of American politics.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:35 AM

Rigging Elections ... it's all part of American politics.

It doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't. We can decide that we want open, honest, fair, and verifiable elections. And we can make it happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

WHile impropriety of elecion processes have always been around, slx, so have the voices demanding improvement and correction and refusing to settle for criminal manipulation. You can choose apathy, or going into agreement with the criminality, or you can choose to raise your voice against it.

They say in Harlan county, there are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man, or a thug for J.H. Blair.
Which side are you on?
Say, which side are you on?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:12 PM

It is great to be reminded of that wonderful, powerful song. Thank you, Amos. More on it here.

That was a 'hymn' during the 1950s and 1960s. Probably a good time for another revival.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 01:23 PM

From First Democracy by Paul Woodruff:
"Democracy depends upon listening to opposing views, but in time of crisis, people forget this. If you speak out against a popular measure, you may be branded as an enemy of the people. But that is not democracy at work; it is the majority of the moment acting the part of a tyrant, having its way by the use of fear and intimidation."
The more I think about appointment of leaders from the citizenry at large by lottery, the better I like it.

Also worth noting is that Athenians held their leaders accountable. Upon a public official's leaving office, there was a formal examination of how well he did. This was not committee of cronies, but a jury of citizens. And juries often numbered as many as 500. Too many to bribe. Interesting idea!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:01 PM

Don Firth said:

Also worth noting is that Athenians held their leaders accountable. Upon a public official's leaving office, there was a formal examination of how well he did. This was not committee of cronies, but a jury of citizens. And juries often numbered as many as 500. Too many to bribe. Interesting idea!

Maybe 500 is too many to bribe, but not too many to be stampeded. In fact, I think 500 is more likely to succumb to a lynch-law craze than 12.

Remember, it was one of those huge juries that condemned Socrates to death.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:18 PM

Uncle Dave, the juries were also selected by lottery, and were kept large to make sure there was a substantial cross-section of citizens' viewpoints, so the idea of their being stampeded is pretty unlikely. The trial of Socrates was a whole different thing. And it is also one of the examples of where Athenian democracy failed.

Woodruff is not maintaining that Athenian democracy was flawless. But they tried a helluva lot more diligently than we've been doing lately.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

I'm certainly not saying I condone the 'rigging of election'.I dislike it immensly. It is foul, it stinks. Greed for power and election rigging are parallel. If there is a way to eliminate the human element for greed and power then a more democratic, humane society will evolve. The question is, how do we eliminate that element, this element that has been escalating rapidly in the last few years. I do feel we are entering an era of complete domince by the untrustworty, the greedy, the power barons whose actions are beyond our control. It is obvious the democratic side is voicing it's concerns (and I am one who has and does voacalize). These concerns are heard, but the 'dark' side is oblivious to it.... the dark side will not relent in it's frenzy.

As I mentioned in a previous thread ..... helpless, helpless.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM

Yes, one and all, I DID listen and watch the whole tape Amos posted. I do not doubt that the hearing took place, and I don't question the veracity of the witness. That hearing, however, does not prove that the election was rigged. It lent evidence that one COULD be rigged I suppose. IF the eletion was rigged, I repeat, every news organization would have reported it. It's too big of a story to ignore. In regard to Palist, perhaps the news media did investigate his charges but did not believe the source! He didn't have an axe to grind did he Bobert? Palist certainly would be considered unbiased, right?

And Carol C:, the only journalist that I have any memory of being fired was the one on the New York Times that was fired for manufacturing stories. If you have specific examples of reporters being fired because their bosses did not agree with their political philosophy, I'd be interested in hearing more about it. If it is as prevelant as you claim, it should not be a problem to direct us to some sources.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

OH, and some folks have made much of the programmer being under oath. I think O. J. was too, wasn't he? I was involved in a law-suit one time and the person I was opposing lied through her teeth several times while under oath. If one has a strong enough motive, one might lie under oath. Despite her lying, however, I won my case.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

Doug,

While the deponant did not say the election was rigged he did testify that he delivered a documented program to the manager and was told it had to be covert, hidden, for the specific purpose of ensuring the/an election was won.

This does not prove that it WAS modified to be covert, but it does prove that the Republican participants in an honorable democaratic process were strongly interested in corrupting that process for their own ends. It also proves that they had bought the capability to corrupt the process.

Of course that doesn't prove they DID corrupt the process -- just that they were willing to pay for the ability to do so.

However, I would suggest that if a public servant is willing to spend public money in order to corrupt a public democratic process that that public servant is dishonest and corrupt.

I think that is the real point; your support of dishonest, corrupt individuals.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM

It is quite evident that lying is becoming an accepted norm in our society.

Not stating that I agree with it, not stating 'if you can get away with it, go for it" .... I'm just making a statement.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM

BTW ... that statement above was from me ... 6 at work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:37 PM

Between smug complacency, cynicism, and general apathy, I despair for the future of the country.

Disgusting.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:10 PM

I can't help but agree with your Don.

It is the complacency, and apathy that has allowed society to lose hold of it's democratic and moral values.

yes .... it is disgusting. It leaves a feeling of helplessness and despair, no matter how hard you persevere.


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:33 PM

But if for no other reason than to preserve one's self-respect, one must keep trying.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:05 PM

Actually, the preponderance of voter fraud in the USA occurs in our big cities, under the auspices of the Democrat party. The 100,000 Republican ballots found floating in the river in Chicago,1960, was the tip of the iceberg. Nothing new, either. One San Francisco election in the 1880's was swung by 'voters' who resided in a grave yard in California's 'gold country', Placerville if I recall. Yep, everyone of the 240 cemetary residents preferred the Democrat.

Here is a partial list of cities where 'machine' politics rutinely thwarts the will of the people:

New York NY
Los Angeles CA
Chicago IL
Houston TX
Philadelphia PA
San Diego CA
Detroit MI
Dallas TX
Phoenix AZ
San Antonio TX
San Jose CA
Baltimore MD
Indianapolis IN
San Francisco CA
Jacksonville FL
Columbus OH
Milwaukee WI
Memphis TN
Washington DC
Boston MA
Seattle WA
El Paso TX
Cleveland OH
New Orleans LA
Nashville TN
Denver CO
Austin TX
Fort Worth TX
Oklahoma City OK
Portland OR
Kansas City MO
Long Beach CA
Tucson AZ
St. Louis MO
Charlotte NC
Atlanta GA
Virginia Beach VA
Albuquerque NM
Oakland CA
Pittsburgh PA
Sacramento CA
Minneapolis MN
Tulsa OK
Honolulu HI
Cincinnati OH
Miami FL
Fresno CA
Omaha NE
Toledo OH
Buffalo NY
Wichita KS
Santa Ana CA
Mesa city, AZ
Colorado Springs CO
Tampa FL
Newark NJ
St. Paul MN
Louisville KY
Anaheim CA
Birmingham AL
Arlington TX
Norfolk VA
Las Vegas NV
Corpus Christi TX
St. Petersburg FL
Rochester NY
Jersey City NJ
Riverside CA
Anchorage AK
Lexington KY
Akron OH
Aurora CO
Baton Rouge LA
Stockton CA
Raleigh NC
Richmond VA
Shreveport LA
Jackson MS
Mobile AL
Des Moines IA
Lincoln NE
Madison WI
Grand Rapids MI
Yonkers NY
Hialeah FL
Montgomery AL
Lubbock TX
Greensboro NC
Dayton OH
Huntington Beach CA
Garland TX
Glendale CA
Columbus GA
Spokane WA
Tacoma WA
Little Rock AR
Bakersfield CA
Fremont CA
Fort Wayne IN
Arlington VA


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Interesting noise, PDQ -- from what source?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

"But if for no other reason than to preserve one's self-respect, one must keep trying."

So correct Don, I'm with you. The atmosphere maybe helpless, but you must preserve your self respect, hang on to your moral and humane convictions.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:37 PM

Weak, pdq. Anyone with minimal computer skills can cut and paste a list of cities. Where is your documentation. Got a link?

Also--I don't doubt that Democrats have tried hanky-panky in elections, but does that justify the Republicans establishing a method of cooking the books to favor themselves?

How about genuine election reform instead indulging in wholesale sneakiness?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:48 PM

pdq: I didn't see Alice, Texas, the town that figured prominently in electing Lyndon Johnson to the Congress on your list. Of course I guess some folks would find it acceptable to list dead people on the voting roles. Provided they were Democrats.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

You miss the humor, Don Firth. Those are just the top 100 cities in the US in exact order, largest to smallest.

Point is that all cities have a Democrat 'political machine', most rural areas do not. I moved from #11 on that list to a remote part of the Nevada desert. What an improvement! People are polite, the voting machines are 'state of the art' with a paper record, hiways are almost always empty, and there are more species of birds than just Starling and English Sparrow!

If you really want to examine voter fraud, why do you and others always talk about Florida 2000? Seems to me that the 300% trunout in one district of St. Louis that same year should be a good case to study.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM

Yep, DougR. When someone asked a Democrat precint worker why the late returns from Alice were running over 99% for Lyndon Johnson, the man replied "I guess they really like him out there in Alice".


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

Doug R, you astound me. Surely the issue is that your elections are so open to fraud. If, as you suggested, the story was not reported on CNN (or presumably other major media outlet), surely you should be asking questions of the media, not using it to justify what to me reads/views as very serious allegations.

As a UKer, and therefore an outsider in all this, to me you are turning pride in American democracy into a joke. It's quite pathetic to see such an issue be more or less dismissed on lines including "it's just sour grapes because you lost" or "well you've done it too".

There seems to me to be a short circuit in your thought process. You will leap from something like this straight into your type of defence without a moments pause to consider any consequence or implication in the middle. Are you really that brainwashed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:12 PM

"If you really want to examine voter fraud, why do you and others always talk about Florida 2000? Seems to me that the 300% trunout in one district of St. Louis that same year should be a good case to study."

Absolutely right about that, However, the 2000 election is the most recent that has come to light. It doesn't matter which party is doing it; what does matter is that it can be done. It means that the democracy (I know it's a republic) you love can be hijacked. And it is being hijacked. And that should make everyone--republican and democrat and independent--cringe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM

Jon, you are astute. McGrath of Harlow has often made the same point. Those who leap into the thread in blithe - and mindless- defense of what is currently going on in the USA are routinely missing that same point: We should not condone and certainly not allow this kind of thing to happen. When we do, it is not the kind of country that we envision and strive to achieve.

DougR, may I quote Joseph Welch? "Have you no shame? Have you at last no shame?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:03 PM

Ebbie:

You may, and echo it in the face of all those who contributed to this defamation of a once great social idea.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM

As night falls in eastern US, and initial results are reported, the Democratic candidate leads. What are the odds that when we awaken, in a surprise late-night turnaround, the vote tallies will reverse to favor the Republican candidate? Deja vu? In Ohio...again.

But that was speculation. This is not. Today, Rush Limbaugh called Congressional candidate and Iraq war veteran Major Paul Hackett of the USMC a "staff puke". This is called Supporting the Troops.

Al Franken has been n USO tours to Iraq three times, with a fourth imminent. Sean Hannity said he was going to Iraq, but when he was told that it could be dangerous, he went to Aruba instead. Hannity, of course, is the one who "Supports the Troops".

Today, the total of young Americans killed in Iraq topped 1800, and Bush left on a one-month vacation to his ranch in Texas, all the while Supporting the Troops.

During the 2002 congressional campaign, the Republicans ran an ad that morphed the face of Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam, with that of Osama bin Laden. Ann Coulter said he lost these limbs by "fragging himself". Wonderful Support for the Troops.

Someone in the Whitehouse outed a CIA operative. Though not in uniform (due in no small part to the fact that she was covert…yes covert and the CIA itself is the judge of that aren't they?), how does outing her (and her cover company, and all her contacts over the years) Support the Troops?

When tens of thousands of pounds of explosives went missing from a warehouse in Iraq, Rudy Giuliani said that it wasn't the Bush administrations fault - it was because the troops on the ground didn't do their job. Not making ANY of this up. This is how we Support the Troops.

Who is being tried for the abuses at Abu Ghraib? Any leaders. Nope – only the troops. This is a particularly clever form of Support.

Oh, and we have reduced VA benefits for regular service vets, and denied benefits to reservists (who are shouldering an historically disproportionate share of the load). More welcome Support.

These bastards have taken the phrase "Support the Troops" (which I DO), and turned it into thinly disguised code for "Support Bush and the Party Line". They've done it so thoroughly, and in the latest case of Mr. Limbaugh, so disgustingly, so partisanly, so flipping-ahole-traitorous-bastardly that I can no longer sport a Support the Troops ribbon. But I will come up with a phrase that these manipulative, unprincipled, hypocritical, self-serving power-mongers have not yet poisoned, and I will be wearing a new ribbon by tomorrow night.

And I hope that the early lead holds, and grows large enough to overcome the clever wee-hours vote swapping that will surely be atempted, and tomorrow morning the people of southwestern Ohio are represented by a staff puke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:20 PM

GUEST, TIA: I would give you a standing ovation had you said that where you could see me stand. BRAVO. Piss on it. I just gave you one. BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:15 PM

Well done, well said, TIA.


Thanks!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:31 PM

There's amounatin of evidence that Greg Palist collected on the 2000 election fraud in Florida...

He has copies of documents... He goes thru the entire deal...

Had Jeb Bush, the presidenty's brother, and Katherine Harris had not done the crimes then Bush would not be president...

Read "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palist... It's all there... It's irrefutable... It's documented... The copies of the memo's are there...

Read it fir yerselves if you think I'm makin' it up..

Evwen the Washington Post wrote about it some 3 months late and burined in the A section...

Bush and his thugs pulled off the hiest of all time: the White House...

This ain't about generic voter irregulariteis... This is about a governor of a swing state riggin' the crap out of an election and it's about when this brother almost blew it that a bunch of Supreme Court folks who were appointed by Bush's father and Ronnie Reagan stopped a recount!!!

The 2000 Election was the biggest fraud ever perpitrated on America... Even beats out 1876 Hayes/Tilden election which up until 2000 still stunk up the joint....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:37 PM

Hold it, pdq! If you'll check back in this thread, I think you'll see that the possibility of voter fraud in Florida was brought up by Doug (2nd post, right after Amos). The main topic is the contents of the video that Amos linked to--the writing of a program for Republican clients that would allow them to change the results of an election.

Let's try to stick to the point rather than tossing in red herrings all the time.

(What am I saying!??? "Change the subject" is the name if the game when someone criticizes anything the Republicans do!)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:58 PM

Normal, Don...

That's all these crooks know how to do... Yeah, get their brownshirts out in force to keep blaming others fir their failures....

Why is it that you don't hear the Bushites talkin' about "personal responsibility" any more??? It's becuase they are no longer in denial about being crooks... They just don't care if they are crooks... Hey, better to be in the winner's circle, evenm if you stole it, than to not be there...

Hypocrits...

Autocrats...

Brownshirts...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:13 AM

Go back and read my post again, DougR. The word "fired" does not appear in it even once. I said they have been quitting. The reason they have been giving for doing so is that they are not free to report the news. They are saying that their editors are suppressing important stories that conflict with the agendas of the special interests to whom they answer. The journalists are saying that they are quitting because this state of affairs makes it impossible to have or maintain any kind of journalistic integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

Carol:

I'd be interested if you wanted to gather a list of such reporters and the stories about them. I don't doubt they are out there, I just haven't seen 'em.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:36 AM

Unfortunately, Amos, I have mostly heard about it while listening to programs discussing this sort of thing on the radio, rather than from anything I've read online. But if I get a chance, I'll see if I can find anything online to show you. I know there are at least a handful of people who quit their jobs with major news organizations and went on to write in small independent online publications for the reasons I mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Depressed
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:55 PM

FYI - "Staff Puke" is a term used by enlisted men for officers who are in a non-combat role. Hackett basically ran as a Repub. His primary commercial as seen on Cable news started with a comment/video of Bush doing a positve blurb on the war followed by Hackett agreeing with him. I wonder what might have happend if Hackett would had run on his beliefs; 'Bush is the worst thing to happen to the US, the war is wrong'. Will we ever win anything by coping the opposition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 03:54 PM

Also a polite term for REMFs (rear-echelon mother fkrs).


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: TIA
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

1) Limbaugh is not, and never was, an enlisted man (does anyone remember why not? hint: his ass). He has not earned the right to use the term staff puke.

2) Hackett was IN Fallujah during the battle. Besides, ask anyone who has been there - where exactly are the non-combat areas in Iraq?

3) Now, go do a bit of reading. Hackett ran directly and openly against Bush and the Bush agenda.

4) The late night tally-switch happened didn't it? Does my ability to predict exactly this worry anyone?   DougR???


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:38 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:09 PM

Uh, what Amos suggested, Carol C, is kind of what I wondered. Again, if it is as prevelent as you suggest, it shouldn't be too difficult to cite examples.

Guest Jon: I think perhaps you are too quick to rush to judgement. Perhaps it is because you are living so far removed from American elections. I'm certain that there is some voter fraud in this country. However, as a whole, I believe our election process is fair and with only a minimum amount of it.

I think the problem most of these folks have who scream foul after an election is their candidates don't win elections. Therefore, SOMETHING must be wrong with the voting system. It doesn't even occur to such people that they may be backing the wrong horse.

If a person can't connect a simple arrow with a felt pen (with a space between the feather and the tip to be fille in with the pen) perhaps one should not be voting anway. The same with punching a hole. You have a tool and you punch a hole. Such folks probably would have difficulty finding the polling place anyway.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:16 PM

As soon as I figure out what search parameters to use, I'll see what I can find.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM

I just returned from a shortened fishing trip and find that...

To the point;

Tia;
1. I don't give a rats bottom what Limbaugh did or didn't do, freedom of speech is an entitlement. And Hackett held a position that garnerd him the title of 'staff puke.'

2. Nothing was said about non-combat areas, he was in a non-combat capacity.


3. I have a friend in Ohio, actually in that district who is a moderate Dem. He said that Hackett talked antiwar to the National press, but was a hawk locally. Did you not see Hacketts' main TV campaign ad where he had Bush commenting on "we are correct in being in Iraq" followed immediately by Hackett agreeing to the comment. Now you go do some reading. Make it from BOTH sides of the issue.

4. Please provide some sort of evidence as to your prediction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM

I agree with "Depressed and wonder if making excuses for failure will cause many to continue to fail. While I may not be aligned with "D", I get somewhat outraged when I see anyone making excuses as opposed to making effort(s) for change, right or wrong, er, left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:37 PM

If a person can't connect a simple arrow with a felt pen (with a space between the feather and the tip to be fille in with the pen) perhaps one should not be voting anway. The same with punching a hole. You have a tool and you punch a hole. Such folks probably would have difficulty finding the polling place anyway.

Gee, Doug, you have the answer -- disenfranchise those who are "differently abled". Instead of having to be land-owners or having to pass a literacy test, you can give them complex symbol tests. That'll clear the ragamuffins off the voter rolls, ok. Brilliant!! Maybe we should make it part of the Constitution of this great Reich of ours.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:48 PM

Amos @01 Aug 05 - 1:43 PM

Amos, Amos, Amos. "Perhaps the history of the species is irrevalent to you" - (not quoted from here) or are you still trying to figure out yours?*

A person would think that video would be replayed forever on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc. Did anyone see it once?

Amos, can't you play nice?
*The only reason you must have for making that comment is you are not sure of yours. I would not have thought of saying that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

No, Doug, you're merely exhibiting the obverse of your accusation that the only reason liberals are complaining is because the other guys won. You're perfectly happy because your guy got in, and you have no incentive to question the manner in which that happened.

Once again, I remind you of the 57,000 people in Florida in 2000 who were denied their vote, and the insufficient number of poling places in Ohio in 2004, making people stand in line for up to eight hours. And most of the districts lacking poling places were in areas that customarily go Democratic. Now whether or not this actually changed the outcome of the election is open for question. I don't know the answer, but neither do you. But, interestingly enough, Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 were swing states as far as the electoral college votes were concerned. In 2000, Bush lost the majority vote by a narrow margin, but won on the Florida electoral votes. Had those 57,000 people been allowed to vote, the election would most likely have swung the other way, because that would have given Florida's electoral votes to Gore. In 2004, many working people in Ohio complained because they had to go to work, and couldn't spend the day standing in line for hours to vote, so, in essence, were disenfranchised because sufficient facilities hadn't been provided. Add to all of this the possibility that votes were altered electronically (not because of hanging chads or failure to mark a paper ballot properly), and you have a big question mark hovering over the legitimacy of the two recent presidential elections.

Now, this should deeply concern every American, not just the Democrats. I remind you once again that cobbling elections is a two-edged sword. It cuts both ways. And some time in the future, you might not feel so smug about an election's outcome.

Tattoo this on your forehead backwards, so when you shave in the morning, you can read it in the mirror:
It isn't a matter of partisan politics. It is a matter of honest elections.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

What Don said.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:31 PM

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh Doug but there is no way you should be grouping suggestions of "voter incompetence" with an allegation of an approach to tamper with computer code!

As for voter incompetance. I do remember seeing an example of one of your forms - one that had caused a great fuss - a few years ago. It should have been plain to anyone that particular form would lead to mistakes and should never have been used. Even the most able of people are liable to make mistakes with badly designed forms and in an election, we should be doing our utmost to cater for all abilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

It is a matter of honest elections.

...unless you don't really believe in democracy, in which case you probably don't want honest elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: TIA
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM

Guest G:

1) "freedom of speech is an entitlement"

Never said it wasn't. Limbaugh absolutely has the freedom to say things that are disgusting, hypocritical, anti-troop crap.

2) "he was in a non-combat capacity"

Quibble, quibble, quibble. Exactly which marines in Iraq are in "non-combat-capacity"? Have we not had auto mechanics, interpreters, clerks, etc. killed and wounded?

3) "Please provide some sort of evidence as to your prediction."

Please read my election night prediction, then you go do some reading (how about your newspaper).


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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:25 PM

Liberals woundn't be complaining if 'the other guy who won' was doing a good job. He ain't. Seen your national debt lately?


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