BS: What Love Really Is

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM

Regarding Lawrence Durrel's theory, here's what I say about loving a woman.

Love her AND turn her into art. She is a work of art. No question about it. Love her totally, because she is a walking example of God's mysterious and glorious perfection...BUT...don't lose your own sovereignty in the process! If you can manage that, you're on solid ground. (I always found it tricky.)

I say these things mostly just to remind myself. ;-)

"the more love you give out the more is given back to you."

You are so right, Lynne. The thing with love is, you gotta love everybody, not just that one "special" person. If you do, plenty of love will come back. (Note that loving everybody does not necessarily mean you will like everybody...in terms of their outward personality.)

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:13 PM

Totally agree... can love someone totally but not like them at that moment...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:12 PM

in the Knight and Hag tale, Sir Gawain who marries the old crone, is asked the question whether he prefers her to be beautiful by day or night. And since he doesnt want to decide her fate, hes says that it is her choice (giving her respect as a human being). Whereupon she turns into and stays a beautiful maiden.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:57 PM

I fell in love with my husband before I ever met him face to face. But fortunately for me I was never put to the test, because my husband is an extremely handsome man.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:50 AM

The thing with love is, you gotta love everybody

"Love all, trust few, do wrong to none." -- Shakespeare (can't remember which play at the moment, but I remember hearing that line on stage at the Folgier Library theater. It's part of the parting advice a mother gives to her son before he goes traveling)

Or, in another version I once heard: "Love many, trust few. Always paddle your own canoe."

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:16 AM

Love it, Capri! And as I was pondering your post, it brought to mind something I read a couple years ago, in a book called "A Course in Miracles". Although this seems shocking at first, after a little honest self-searching and reflection it does ring true.

The course asserts that there is no such thing as a "special relationship" - that in essence our relationships with spouse, family members, close friends etc are exactly the same as with anyone else, even the strangers we meet on the street! What makes certain relationships seem special are only the social roles we play out with certain people; particularly, all the expectations and judgments(ie premeditated resentments!) we impose on ourselves and on one other within those roles. (ie if I *love* you, that means I must do xxx for you. In return, you must also *love* and do xxx for me. If we don't, we're bleeps! We don't love each other, we've failed, we've done each other wrong and we're gonna pay!)

This is why it often seems so much easier to be unconditionally loving, compassionate, tolerant, patient and generous with total strangers than with parents or siblings or children or mates. We wouldn't dream of imposing such burdens of expectation on a stranger!

Interesting attitude. And one which feels so liberating - for both self and whoever else is involved in all those so-called "special relationships" - when you 'try it on' and practice it for awhile!

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:25 AM

Exactly, Daylia and CapriUni!

"Love all, trust few, do wrong to none."

That is brilliant, although I would say that one can trust a good many people, not just a few. There are a few people whom one cannot trust under normal circumstances. There are many whom one cannot trust under very stressful circumstances. It all depends.

Anyway, good for Shakespeare!

When people decide to give "all" their love (or most of it) to one "special" person in a special relationship...and that's what people usually do...they go seriously astray. They load a burden on that one person which is unreasonable, and they deny a reasonable allotment of love to many others. That is what usually ends up destroying the special relationship in the long run. It's a dysfunctional attitude, based on separation from most of humanity ("me and you are going to go off into our own little corner here...our love nest...you and me against the world...") It doesn't work. The World is there to love and interact with, not to sequester yourself away from with one special partner. A special partnership with one should increase your love for all others and increase your participation with the rest of the World. If it doesn't, it's leading in the wrong direction.

This is not what you will be told in most of our popular books, movies, songs, and poems...needless to say! ;-) We have all been taught from birth to be emotional vampires on one another in this society. Our common myth of romance is ANYTHING but loving in its real nature. It's vicious. You see the results all around in broken marriages and broken relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:31 AM

from the paper today in sydney -

With a 'God bless' she knew her sweetheart was alive
By Alan Ramsey August 10, 2005, sydney morning herald

JEAN Whyte, from Leura, married her soldier sweetheart, a private, five weeks before he sailed to Singapore, eventually to become a prisoner of war of the Japanese. That was 64 years ago. She would sit at night in the Blue Mountains with her short-wave radio, bought with wedding money, and search the airwaves for any news of him. He would sit in Changi prison and write poetry for her. Four years, six months and two weeks would pass before they held each other again, on September 22, 1945. That was the day he arrived home by flying boat at Rose Bay. A newspaper photo of the pair embracing is the centrepiece of Jean's album of memories. He is wearing the jumper she knitted when they thought he was being sent to the Middle East. He kept it in his kitbag all the years he was a POW, vowing to survive to wear it the day he returned home to his young bride.

David Griffin, also from Leura, married Jean on Saturday, March 8, 1941. He was 25. She was 22. He had enlisted, at his third try, in the AIF's new 8th Division 24 hours earlier. The army put him in a unit that looked after ambulances. The convoy of ships that took him overseas, and into captivity 11 months later, sailed from Sydney Harbour on April 11, 1941 - Good Friday. He died on March 25 last year, aged 88.

Two years before his death, Griffin published a book of poems, Changi Days, under the dedication: "To Jean, my wife of over 60 years who saw me go, waited long years for my return and was there when I came back." She is now 86 and still drives her ride-on mower, his 80th birthday gift, at their property near Mittagong.

Theirs is a great love story.

In 1944 Japanese headquarters in Singapore sent a motorcycle rider to Changi with a radio message which had been monitored overnight. It was addressed: "NX69235, Sgt (Charles) David Griffin, 2/3 motor ambulance convoy. From wife. Message: 'Dearest David. Well, happy. Hope together soon. July radio received. Family, aunts, daddy, Ted and Chris send greetings. Love kisses sweetheart. Jeannie.' "

She recalls: "I'd got this radio message which was picked up by a woman on short-wave in Western Australia, and she sent it on to me. It was very stilted, from the Japanese, saying David was well, which he didn't even know had been sent. I replied, of course, and the Japanese picked it up in Singapore and sent it out by motorbike to the jail, because they were so thrilled I'd responded to their message."

It was the only radio message that got through to David Griffin in 3½ years of captivity. His wife got three of his. One of these, sent 61 years ago tomorrow, read: "Dearest Jeannie. Very well and cheerful. Still in [prison] library [at Changi]. My thoughts are flying to our reunion. David. 11 Aug, '44."

What Jean remembers with the greatest joy is the day early in 1944, before the radio message was picked up in Western Australia, that she got a handwritten postcard from Changi prison. After the fall of Singapore in February 1942 and the surrender of all British and Allied forces, including 23,000 Australians, David Griffin had been posted "missing, believed a POW". It was another nine months before she officially learnt he was alive. The postcard came 15 months later.

"Daddy and I were eating our lunch at home in Leura and I could hear postie blowing his whistle. I said, 'I think he must have something,' so I ran down to the gate and there was postie sitting on his horse, holding up this card. He had a lot of cards, and mine was from David saying 'God bless'. The Japanese allowed a maximum 30 words. I got four of David's cards all together, I think, and I used to carry them with me. Near the end of the war somebody pinched my wallet, so they were gone."

Griffin would become Sydney's lord mayor years later and be knighted by the NSW Askin government. His "Jeannie" was with him in their sunroom the morning he had a stroke 17 months ago. He died without regaining consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Dani
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:08 AM

Little Hawk, that is right on. I believe that true love CREATES love, that if it is real and true, it overflows and MUST be shared in some way. Selfish love is NOT true love, because it only takes, and doesn't give.

You have sent me back to Khalil Gibran. He and Rumi are the best writers on love that I know. Well, them and Bruce ; ) I'll be back after I read some more!

Thanks for starting this thread. Maybe a song will come out of this yet, for it is far from BS.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:27 AM

Khalil Gibran is as good as it gets. He was tuned right in on the highest. I haven't read Rumi as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

Dani and Little Hawk, With regard to Kahlil Gibran - YES!!! Eternal truth and wisdom in his words. I am amazed each and every time I go back to "The Prophet," and find myself wondering, " Who was this guy Gibran?"   KT

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Dani
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:38 PM

Absolutely. I put "The Prophet" aside and forget for a while, then when I pick it up, I'm amazed all over again. Also interesting to see what I marked at different times of my life ; )

Rumi was a Sufi who lived in the 1200's. He founded the order of dervishes known as the Whirling Dervishes. And the man knew his stuff when it came to love. Google a little and sample some. I think he wrote 10's of 1000's of poems, and some are so beautiful they can make you cry. And some are so salty, down-to-earth they'll make you (well, someone...) blush. And funny. All kinds of good stuff.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:31 PM

Prelude to a letdown.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

Rumi is also as good as it gets when it comes to poetics and insight. Y'all have a treat up if you haven't savoured his stuff.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:06 PM

Reading about Rumi inspired me to get "The Music of Life" off my bookshelf and open it at random. I thought maybe another great Sufi master - Hazrat Inayat Khan - might have something worth sharing about love on this, a musician's site.

Well, I think he did!    :-D    And I'd like to share the paragraph I turned to ...

"In India there are vina players who do not need to play a symphony in order to exert an influence, in order to produce a spiritual phenomenon. They only have to take the vina in their hand and strike one note. As soon as they strike one note it penetrates through and through; in striking one or two notes they have tuned the audience. The sound works on all the nerves; it is like playing on the flute that is in every heart. Their instrument becomes simply a source, the response to which is found in the heart of every person, friend and foe alike. Let the most antagonistic person come before a real vina player and he cannot keep his antagonism. As soon as the notes have touched that person, he cannot prevent the vibrations that are created in him, he cannot help becoming a friend. Therefore in India such players are often called, instead of musicians, "vina magicians". Their music is magic."

(From "The Music of Life", Hazrat Inayat Khan, pg 136)

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:19 PM

If you don't like the idea of the woman who writes in a library book, what do you think of the guy who steals the book from the library? He evidently has, since he has it in his hand 13 months later.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:14 PM

. Let the most antagonistic person come before a real vina player and he cannot keep his antagonism.

That reminds me of the line that runs around the head of Pete Seeger's banjo:

"This machine surrounds hate, and forces it to surrender."

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Dani
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM

Went back and found the first piece that turned me on to Rumi:

"There is a community of the spirit.
Join it, and feel the delight
Of walking in the noisy street,
And BEING the noise.

Drink ALL your passion,
And be a disgrace.

Close both eyes
To see with the other eye.

Open your hands,
If you want to be held.

Sit down in this circle."


This is just a piece of a much, much more. It should also be said that much of Rumi's poetry was centered on passion for the Divine, though he said that when "he met the powerful wandering dervish, Shams of Tabriz, 'What I had thought of before as God, I met today in a human being.'"

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: KT
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:28 PM

Beautiful, Dani. My familiarity with Rumi is limited, but I have a feeling that won't be the case for long. Thanks for sharing it.
KT

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Les B
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:33 AM

As I remember, in the tale of the knight and the hag (a witch), the moral of the story was; "... and no matter how beautiful a woman is, if you don't let her do what she damned well pleases she'll turn into a witch in a flash !!"

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: MBSLynne
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:17 AM

Somehow I've managed to miss Rumi all my life. Never heard of him before. But you now have me interested and I shall go and Google immediately. Lifelong fan of Khalil Gibran though

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:25 AM

Wow! I am also off to read Rumi... Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:51 AM

although I would say that one can trust a good many people, not just a few.

Oh, I agree, LH. But as a piece of advice to someone leaving home for the first time, "trust few," is valid. Don't trust people simply bcause they ask you to, and don't put your life in anyone's hands until you've both earned each other's trust.

But in the meantime, love them anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:13 AM

Recipe for an ideal marriage:

A marriage should be a giving contest.

The one who gives the most gets to be one of the two big winners!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:35 PM

Agreed, Capri.

Subject: RE: BS: What Love Really Is
From: KT
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:58 PM

For anyone interested, if you do a google search on Kahlil Gibran, the third one down will take you to "The Prophet" in its entirety. Don't even have to get up from the computer to find your copy.

KT