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Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern
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Subject: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:52 AM There is a well-known tune called Ellacombe in the English-speaking world. I've learned that it was originally a Marian song in German, "Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern." I would like to have the words for "Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern,". And if anybody could post a MIDI of the piece as it occurred in the 18th century, I would be thankful for that, too. I would like the MIDI because the old form might be more interesting or archaic-sounding than today's version. It was in a collection called "Gesangbuch der Herzogl." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM Midi Found |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:02 PM Two more MIDI's found |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:53 PM Es Flog ein The German "Es flog ein klein' Waldvögellein" from the Memminger Tabulature, midi, and lyrics at the same ingeb website cited for "O Day..." by George Seto, under Deutscher Volkslieder. The tune is the same, but midi less organ-like for the German song. In the Lutheran Hymnal, "Ave Maria, klarer und lichter Morgenstern," is under "Ellacombe" (A) p. 9 tn 1130, which seems to be the same. Lutheran I can't find an earlier tune. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: masato sakurai Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:46 PM From The 1982 Hymnal Companion, vol. IIIA (1994), p. 424: The Württemburg Gesangbuch (Württemburg, 1784) was cited as the source of this tune [i.e., ELLACOMBE] by W.H. Frere in the 1904 edition of HA&M [Hymns Ancient and Modern]. The reprint at Example 1 [which I hope I have transcribed correctly below] shows the early form of the tune, but a version much closer to the present hymn tune is found in Volstandige Sammulung der gewöhnlichen Melodien zum Mainzer Gesangbuche (Mainz, 1833), where it is set to "Der da im heil'gen Sacrament." It is conjectured that the text associated with the 1784 version was "Ave Maria klarer." The tune was intruduced in England through W.H. Monk's arrangement in the 1868 appendix to HA&M, set to "Come, sing with holy gladness."The 1833 version (tune only) is quoted in Armin Haeussler's The Story of Our Hymns (Eden, 1952, p. 142): X:2In Gotteslob: Katholisches Gebet- und Gesangbuch (Münster, 2003, no. 581), "Ave Maria klare" (Olmüz um 1500) is set to a different tune (Mainz 1947): 1. Ave Maria klare, / du lichter Morgenstern! / Du bist ein Freud fürwahre des Himmels und der Erd, / erwählt von Ewigkeit, / zu sein die Mutter Gottes / zum Trost der Christenheit. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: AVE MARIA KLARE, DU LICHTER MORGENSTERN From: masato sakurai Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:55 PM From here: Olmütz um 1500/Leisentrit 1584, Corner 1625: Ave Maria klare, du lichter Morgenstern (GL 581) "Ave Maria klare, du lichter Morgenstern! Du bist ein Freud (fürwahre) des Himmels und der Erd, erwählt von Ewigkeit, zu sein die Mutter Gottes zum Trost der Christenheit. Ohn Sünd bist du empfangen, wie dich die Kirche ehrt, bist von der falschen Schlangen geblieben unversehrt. O Jungfrau rein und zart, dein Lob kann nicht aussprechen, was je erschaffen ward. Ein Gruß ward dir gesendet vom allerhöchsten Gott, durch Gabriel vollendet, der war des Grußes Bot. `Du sollst ein Mutter sein, ein Jungfrau sollst du bleiben, ein Jungfrau keusch und rein. Es wird dich übertauen des Allerhöchsten Kraft, Gesegnet(st)e der Frauen, in reiner Jungfrauschaft. Gott selbst, er wird dein Sohn; du sollst ihn Jesus nennen, und ewig ist sein Thron. Da sprach die Jungfrau reine: `Ich bin des Herren Magd. Sein Wille gescheh allein(e). Es sei, wie du gesagt." Christ wohnt' in ihrem Schoß, gar lieblich ruht' er drinnen (darinnen); Ihr Freude, die war groß. Dies Lob sei dir gesungen, Frau, hochgebenedeit. Von dir ist uns entsprungen der Brunn der Seligkeit. Empfiehl uns deinem Sohn(e) und bitte für uns Sünder allzeit an Gottes Thron. (Corner: Hilf uns zur Engelschar, daß wir samt deinem Kinde dich loben immerdar!)" |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Aug 05 - 10:58 PM Interesting website, Masato. It has another old Marian hymn about which there were inquiries a few months ago. It led me to check on Google- Deutsches geistliches Lied- which led to "Ave Maria Klare" in 4-part sheet music, setting by Zehetbauer: Ave Maria klare This was found through freenet.de, Search (Suche) for Ave Maria klare Freenet |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM Oh my god! The strangers have won! I needed 1 day to find out the first line of the song and the source. Before I found the book in the University Library in Tübingen and ordered it I checked the thread anew, so I think Masato's and Q's contributions are the answers to the question. Correct title of the source: Gesang-Buch nebst angehaengten oeffentlichen Gebethen zum Gebrauche der Herzogl. Wirtembergischen Katholischen Hofkapelle [Hymnal with added public prayers for the use of the Duke's of Württemberg catholic court chapel] [Editor:] Benedikt Maria Leonhard von Werkmeister Neue, sehr verm. Aufl. ... [new, augm. ed.] [S.l.], 1786 A main difficulty with finding the song in the web was the misleading reference klarer [instead of klare] which was introduced by some "anyhowers" who don't care for a correct reference (not your fault, leeneia) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:40 PM Danke sehr, Q, fuer das schoene Lied "Es flog ein klein' Waldvögellein". Wir spielen es naechste Monat. Auch das Lied von Olmutz, 1540. Es scheint unmoeglich, "Ave Maria klare" bei den Weise "Ellacombe" zu singen. Vielleicht findet Wilfried die Antwort. Wilfried: Sie haben das eigentliche Buch gefunden. Das ist Gut! -------- It seems that people on the net have been quoting one another's sites without checking. It doesn't seem possible to fit the words of "Ave Maria klare" to the tune Ellacombe, either with or without the r on "klare" (Just joking!) I will be interested to hear what Wilfried finds in the book from Tubingen. It is exciting that one of the oldest universities in the world is involved in this early-music query. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:52 PM Leeneia, how does the music as arranged by Zehetbauer compare with that usually given for Ellacombe? Wilfried, is the Zehetbauer arrangement anything like the music in the Gesang-buch...? The material I found on the Net doesn't answer the original question by Leeneia, but the book should. Thanks for getting the book on loan. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM Did you check the second link I gave? It lists a date of 1610. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:05 PM Q: No, the tunes are not alike. The tune from 1540 by a composer named Olmutz, is very somber and archaic sounding. (Apparently Zehetbauer is a modern arranger.) Probably minor. Ellacombe (which I know best as the tune for "I sing the mighty power of God") is much more cheerful. I got interested in it when it occurred to me that played jauntily, it would sound like a piece of Baroque chamber music. George, I did listen to your link. I had been there already. It gives the melody to Ellacombe. It could not be used for the Marian hymn. Curiouser and curiouser! Just yesterday we sang "I sing the mighty power of God" in church. Our choir director pronounced the arrangement "four-square." I'm trying to see if the original was not four-square. |
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Subject: Tune Add: AVE MARIA KLARE From: masato sakurai Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM The earlier tune of what is now NARENZA was set to the words of "Ave Maria klare." Armin Haeussler wrote in The Story of Our Hymns (Eden, 1952, pp. 345-46): NARENZA is of German Catholic origin, appearing for the first time in Katholische Kirchen Gesang, a compilation of 126 hymns, edited by the Jesuit order, printed by Peter von Brachel, Cologne, 1619. The original setting was in the iambic 7.6.7.6.6.7.6. meter qnd was set to one of the hymns to the Blessed Vrigin: |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM Now I am beginning to wonder if there were antecedent Latin lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: klarer und lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:57 AM Zehetbauers setting is modern (1947) with a lot of syncopation. I'll loan the Tübingen source and compare the tunes. This will last some days, because I'm on furlough now and won't return to my office until next week. A latin antecedent might be, but mustn't. But I must confess: I'm not very interested in such a question, since I'm of Lutheran offspring (all ministers and ministers' daughters for several centuries), and with the cult of Maria we are not concerned. Sing and enjoy Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM I've printed out the Adobe file of "Ave Maria, klare, lichter Morgenstern" and made MIDI files. I've sent them in to be posted, and with any luck, they will show up. The tune is very simple and rather pretty but unlikely ever to be a great hit. However, it's always interesting to hear what people were singing 500 years ago. Lyrics are posted above. Forget what I said above about this being a somber tune. That was a mistake. I was disappointed in the four-part arrangement by Johann Zehetbauer, 1947. (Shades of Schoenberg!) You can listen and see what you think. ------- I certainly don't see any relationship here between this tune and Ellacombe. I wonder what Wilfried will find when he get the Gesangbuch from the library. ------- About the "cult" of Mary: the more I learn about history, the more I symphathize with the Europeans of the olden days who were looking for something merciful and good to worship and emulate. For centuries, rulers had been brutal, warfare was considered natural, wife abuse was legal, child abuse was so rife the concept hadn't even been verbalized, torture was a standard investigative technique, and by Luther's time, God and Christ had been turned into frightening, angry figures eager to punish. During these times, Mary embodied the human goodness people were longing for. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:31 AM leeneia - not Olmuz, but Olmuetz (note the umlaut!) Olmütz isn't a composer but the town where the first known published source was printed. [Instead of the umlauts with points, only to be seen with charcter coding ISO-8859-1, I use the old form with a following e.] The cult of Mary is an import from the Mediterranean areas, where she substituted the cult of the Magna Mater (Great Mother) as regent of the world, as is clearly shown by some of her attributes. To correct the image of God eager to punish (clearly old-testamental) and to return to the glad tidings of God's love and forgiveness is one of the main merits of Luther and the reformation. But this is not the place for preaching sermons. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:59 AM In translating from German into American and British scientific journals, conventionally the umlaut is taken care of by using the following e: ö = oe; ü = ue; etc. They do have the ë because it is used in some English words where the second 'e' becomes part of the next syllable. The ß becomes ss. This observation may be out of date; recent computer-guided printing may have made this convention obsolete (except for Mudcat!). Since songs with these letters can't be reproduced in the Mudcat DT, it may be better to use them. Similarily with the Spanish ñ, which is changed to ny; e. g., cañon becomes canyon. Most journals had no problem with acute and grave accent marks, or with the cedilla, ç. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:12 PM yeah, yeah, I had four years of German in high school and a minor in college. Sometimes I just don't want to be bothered with umlauts. the French use rounded vowels, so do the Scots, so do certain American southerners. They don't insist on little dots over their vowels. Try to be more flexible. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 13 Aug 05 - 10:08 AM To read this correctly change your character encoding to Western (ISO-8859-1) Umlauts: the two dots are a reduced e which was written behind, then above the vocal. the ß is not a letter, but a ligature of two s-es, a long and a round one (or a long long and a shorter long one) which was used in manuscripts and in printed texts but abandoned later, except in the German and Austrian empires. The Swiss abandoned the ß long ago, and in the running discussion about the German orthography reform it is fought hard for and against. In the German card catalogues from 1910 on in the head line the umlauts had to be dissolved into ae, oe, and ue; the ß into ss for a clear sorting out the words alphabetically (and i = j). So you'll always be on the right side if you dissolve these characters in the way Q describes it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:27 AM Bad tidings - so fast as the web is in finding and ordering a book in the web-catalogues so slow will the books be sent; not by mail, but by a special car service which needs about 4 weeks. So you must wait a while for the tune, if there weren't the good tidings: During my furlough our library acquisited a greater collection of hymnals old and new, and in the second book of the lot I found the song! With the tune of about 1500! My colleague with the scanner is on fourlough, unfortunately, so I have to write it by hand during the weekend; next week I hope to be able to present it in the net. The tune Ellacombe is obviously not the right one for this song; its rhyme scheme is: a b, a b, c d, c d (8 lines). Ave Maria klare goes: a b, a b, c, d c (7 lines). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM Danke sehr, Herr Schaum. (Haben Sie Schaumtort gern?) I look forward to seeing the new tune. I also wonder if das Gesangbuch der Herzogl contains other fine melodies, just waiting to be re-discovered. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 20 Aug 05 - 09:48 AM Hi leeneia - you must not call me Herr, I think in the Cat a little bit of familiarity is appropriate. I'm just preparing the web-page with the song. It is not a new tune, but the same Zehetbauer uses in his composition. Note that Zehetbauer shifts the tune [cantus firmus, abbr. c.f.] from tenor to bass after the first two lines. It is the same, even in the same key, as in the modern Catholic hymnal I have before me. On monday I hope to have it in the web. The link you'll find on my page Signals, Mudcatters, For the Use Of. Click "Ave Maria klare" I don't think that there will be found many new and fine songs in the Catholic Court Chapel Hymnal; the really good ones are always printed in new editions, and the others are forgotten. And "Schaumtorte" may be tasty, but I have to look out for my waist, alas! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM Tidings even better: my PO scanner is repaired, an I could scan directly from the prayer- and songbook for you. So wait unti Mondy morning, about 10 o'clock MEST (5 to 9 hours earlier in the States). As you will see, NARENZA is a bit like the tune of Ave Maria klare, but only for the first four lines. Ave Maria klare has three lines more. Structure of this tune [lines]: 1 2 3 4 / 2 3 4. A printer's error in masato's text: erwochlt = erwaehlt. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Klarer und Lichter Morgenstern From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:16 AM You can now see the song (lyrics, my translation, tune) at the URL given above or directly. Sing and enjoy W |
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