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BS: 'Kill the President of...
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Donuel Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:59 AM My oh my. They are calling for the extradition of Pat Robertson like I suggested. As I said before, "I'm sure he won't go". |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:37 PM Thanks "guest!" Or as the Finns say .... Kittos! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1101980737356 Link maker not working, Bob. Google the above and it will take you there in two clicks. It's working: http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1101980737356 |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Bunnahabhain Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM There are many, many Christians about, and they are all people. That means some will be liberal and some consevative, some right and some wrong, but they will all be different. Let's not forget that, and tear into each other too much because of it. If you don't like something that's aid here, then don't snap off an ill-tempered reply. Re-read it, and stop and think. If you get stung, you migh have to go deal with a hornets nest, but you don't start on that by throwing rocks at it. Proverbs 3.13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM The primary TV station in Helsinki, Finland, just cancelled his broadcasts. That's what he deserves for shooting his mouth off. I don't know how to post the link, but you can google "Helsinki newspapers." You'll get a link to "Helsingfors Sanomat." Be sure to ask for the inglish version and that will bring it up. Perhaps someone with more puter skills than me can post this story. CHEERS, Bob (I prefer the Finnish version myself) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:09 AM Wasn't there something in the Old Book about being wary of "false prophets and wolves in sheeps' clothing"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:53 PM Donuel: Methinks that you put words into my mouth that I never spoke. You shouldn't do that. One of the advantages of being a non-christian is that I do not have to waste time defending ridculous statements and positions. But verily I say ... unto you ... I do forgive thee ... or words to that effect! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM 100! Shatner is more fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Bobert Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM Must admit that I ain't read every volley that you an' John have had there, Don but I'd say that my last post might be entered as "Exhibit A" in yer argument... And yeah, I am a church goin' Christain... Sho nuff am... Plus a Bible readin' one, to boot.... Yeah, loota folk who call themselves Christain ever go outta the Old Testament into the teachings of Jesus.... Jesus had a lot to say about how we should bb liovin' and one of his greatest lesson was about judgement... He stopped a crowd of vigilantes from stonin' a prostitude sayin', "Let you who has not sinned cast the first stone"... Yeah, that oughtta say a lot about the folks out there sittin' in the judemental seats.... Jesus also said that there is nothin' secret that one day won't be common knowledge... It's in Mathew and, guess what??? What he was ayin' is that folks, like George Bush, can run but he cannot hide... His lies will catch up to him... (Forgive me, Lord...) ....for this man, the president has badly sinned... (Forgive me, Lord...) No, not sittin' in judgement... Just callin' it the way any thinkin' person has to be seein' it... (Forgive me, Lord...) Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 09:49 PM John, you're losing the thread of the discussion in your eagerness to "one-up" me. And it's not a "dig," it's a flat-out statement. You insist on making the same mistake. You keep saying that I keep saying "Christians are this" or Christians are that!" How many times must I say "SOME Christians" before you stop inferring that I mean "ALL Christians?" Yes, SOME Christians are "too dumb to understand that the 10 Commandments were given to the Hebrew Children in the wilderness." And yes, SOME Christians are anti-Semitic. But you will note, please, that I did not say "ALL Christians." That's what I said and I'll stick by it! The facts prove me right. Now, I think we've beat this one to death! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Bobert Date: 27 Aug 05 - 09:25 PM But how 'bout this Rapture thing??? Got me real worried... Like a lovin' God, who accordin' to most fundamentaslists is in control of everything, is gonna one day just call up (kill) all those of Faith and let the heathens live in heathenis bliss??? Like what's that about??? Hey, if this lovin' God controlled everything then why would he have to flood the Earth to rid it of the bad folks??? Ahhhh, whu would HE have to send Jesus to tell folks to act right 'cause if they did then they could be forgiven of their sins and admitted into the Kingdom??? Like, if He was all controllin' then why is it that a 6 year old kid returnin' from a dance lesson in Portland can exit her mom's car an' be run over by a drunk??? I mean, lets geta little real here... Yeah, I am a Christain, but not all that hung up in the Old Testament, other than the parts that make sense (the Psalms...)... But sayin' that, hey, even the New Testament leaves a lot to be desired... In Mathew Jesus says something to ther effect that only thru Him shall know the Father..... Well, taken to the extreem that leaves out a relationship with God for a majority of folks on the planet!?!?!?!.... So when a George Bush comes with his fundamentalist crap about Isalm being the enemy he is, IMO, not only disrespectin' the majority of folks on the planet but framin' others as enemies... That would be fine 'cept this is a smaller and smaller interdependent world and we don't need that divisive crap... What we need is a little diologue, tolerance and humility... Fix a lot of stuff that Bush's wars can't... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 05 - 09:06 PM But wasn't the Battle of Armageddon (complete with tanks) fought a few years ago? You know, I've been thinking, when talking about assassinating heads fo state who go around starting wars which kill people, I had my attention drawn to "Render unto Ceaser the things that are Ceaser's" The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. The was another nice movie about travelling Gospel tent shows... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:32 PM So both of my inferrences were correct interpretations of your dig? ...Well, then, there you have your answer to: "ANd how did anti-Semitism get into this? If you're going to get on my case, don't accuse me of saying something that I didn't." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Donuel Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:30 PM Deckman is right, Robertson is as Christian as Americans get. He is more influential than Jerry Falwell and wants to be in line for the kind of influence Billy Graham had for doing the song and dance prayer shows* for the run up to each war we have had in the last 40 years. * the current Iraq war included. In fact when Bush virtually declared war on Iraq before his neo con pseudo town hall meeting in New England, the Billy Graham war extravaganza prayer show immediately followed the Bush announcement on national TV. Pat Robertson's frustration apology was merely a rearrangement of the deck chairs on his yacht. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:19 PM Quite a few, actually, including the right one. Believe it or not, I have talked to churchgoing people whose knowledge of the Bible did not include the Old Testament and who maintained fiercely that the Ten Commandments were given by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Different mountain, different prophet, different time period. Simply reading the Sermon on the Mount would have disabused them of that notion. This belief is oddly prevalent. I put it down to the fact that many people have never actually sat down and read the Bible—you know, cover to cover, like a novel for instance (most revealing!!)—but have limited their Bible "scholarship" to bouncing from verse to verse, often using some concordance or other. And no, I don't think Christians—most Christians—are anti-Semitic. But some definitely are. One example would be the Millennialists, who think that when the dust settles after the Battle of Armageddon, Jews who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah will go to Hell. There's certainly a tinge of anti-Semitism there, at least in the sense of denigrating the Jewish religion. And historically, how do you explain the persecution of Jews for centuries in Christian Europe? There were periods when even being suspected of being Jewish could get one hanged or burned at the stake. Are Christians anti-Semitic? Some are, some aren't. They certainly have been in the past. And I think there are those, particularly those who so adamantly insist that "This is a Christian country," who, should their Ten Commandments monument arrive ready for installation in the courthouse lobby with the commandments written in Hebrew, would get pretty darned bent out of shape! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:14 PM ah... common ground. I accept and agree with your second-to-last post. I did read your preceding posts and, had I thought your delineations as clear as you finally made them, would not have "blasted off". In fact, I agree so whole-heartedly with your second-to-last post(especially re: Bush is no conservative ...... and I would add, has little understanding of Christian theology -- at least as I understand it) that I offer my apologies. It's too late for humble ones -- just plain old, brown paper bag apologies. RE: the Hebrew thingy... I still can't envision any but two inferrences from you dig that Christians wouldn't want a 10 commandments display in Hebrew: 1. That they are too dumb to understand that the 10 Commandments were given to the Hebrew Children in the wilderness, or... 2. That Christians are anti-semitic. What other possible inferrence could be drawn from the dig? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:35 PM ANd how did anti-Semitism get into this? If you're going to get on my case, don't accuse me of saying something that I didn't. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:29 PM John, please read my posts in their entirety before blasting off into outer space. You will note that I said "you may draw a distinction there between my use of the words 'Right' and 'conservative' if you wish." I have been drawing that distinction all along. Obviously you didn't wish to draw any distinction, you apparently chose to equate the two. I do not refer to George W. Bush as a "conservative" because I know what a conservative is, and he is not one, not by any standard that classic conservatives such as Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley would find acceptable. A truly conservative Christian does indeed hew close to the teachings of Jesus. One cannot regard oneself as a conservative Christian unless one does. What I refer to as the Christian Right is as distinct from Christian conservatives as George Bush and the other neo-"conservatives" are from classic conservatives. Please don't set up a straw man, call it by my name, and then when you knock it down, try to claim that you have refuted what I actually said. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:14 PM oh.... and if I were really going to fight tooth-and-nail to have a 10 commandments display anywhere, I would have no problem with it being in Hebrew. I'm not a real smart guy, but I am neither as ignorant as your comment implies, nor am I an anti-semite (as the only other inference one might draw from your comment would imply). Actually, the "danger" you should be warning about is not an inherent anti-semitism in the Christian Right. If you were at all watching your chess pieces, you would have noticed that the Christian right feels a God-given imperative to stand behind Israel and the Jews. But then, you already knew all that, as well as you know us Christian conservatives, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:05 PM I disagree. Your portrayal of the "Christian Right" is every bit as black and white as I claim. You, up until the most recent post, did no such thing as acknowledge any good done by Christian conservatives. You, in fact, said EXACTLY the opposite. Here are your words... "While liberal and progressive Christians tend to work to better conditions in the community through a whole range of programs such as free meals, finding housing for the homeless, conduction conflict resolution workshops, and yes, sponsoring peace organizations, the Christian Right is out there bellowing their lungs out and getting the media attention by calling for assassinations, poking their noses into your bedrooms, and getting Harry Potter yanked from library shelves." That is the sum total of your description of the "community service offered by conservative Christians. That is black and white. And many on the "Christian Right" object to many of the same things as well. I don't want prayer in public schools. I don't want any new ten commandment displays posted in courtrooms. I don't think that you are characterizing the "intelligent design" debate properly, but good people can disagree in a pluralistic, democratic society. And if a majority of people believe as you, your side will win. And when people of like mind band together as a voting block for something you believe in, you don't see anything sinister. The black Christian community has banded together as a voting block that you don't seem to find threatening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM John, my view is not black and white as you seem to think. I am fully aware of the good work done by many Christian conservatives. What I object to is when the Christian Right (you may draw a distinction there between my use of the words "Right" and "conservative" if you wish) tries to infiltrated politics and influence national policy, even going so far as to try to get laws past that would enforce their rituals of worship whether a person believes as they do or not, and to dictate their particular version of morality. I stand firm on the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." [Emphasis mine]What I object to is religion—of any stripe—trying to infiltrate the government and erode the First Amendment prohibition the way the Christian Right is doing. They want laws passed that legislate morality (e.g., an anti-gay marriage amendment to the Constitution), force your children to follow their rituals (school prayer—their prayers), put religious plaques and monuments in public buildings (e.g., Ten Commandments—which is initially Judaic, by the way—how would they respond to having the Ten Commandments engraved on the monument in Hebrew?), undercut the teaching of science (the inclusion of "intelligent design"—warmed over creationism—alongside established science), and even dictate what you can read (banning everything from Tarzan of the Apes to Catcher in the Rye to the Harry Potter series) because it may contain something that they consider "un-Christian." All of this would prohibit the free exercise of religions with which they do not agree. And that includes the practices of some other Christian demoninations as well as Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, or no religion at all. And believe me, if they get their way, this sort of thing is only the beginning. My reference to the Taliban is not just hyperbole. You're trying to characterize my views as much narrower than they really are. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: GUEST,Richard Crainium Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:41 PM Oh my goodness, where was the liberal MSM when George Stephanopoulos said this: NM - Fresh from his influential White House post, Stephanopoulos devoted an entire column in Newsweek to the topic of whether the U.S. should take out Saddam Hussein. His headlined? "Why We Should Kill Saddam." "Assassination may be Clinton's best option," the future "This Week" host urged. "If we can kill Saddam, we should." There is no doubt that what Stephanopoulos said was absolutely correctly, and should have been done by the way. However that doesn't excuse the fact that Pat Robertson was the topic de jour of MSNBC earlier this week. It is just sickening and sad that our media is so liberal that they made a huge deal out of what Robertson said, but didn't give the same attention to Stephanopoulos' comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: GUEST,Dick Hertz Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM Oh my goodness, where was the liberal MSM when George Stephanopoulos said this: NM - Fresh from his influential White House post, Stephanopoulos devoted an entire column in Newsweek to the topic of whether the U.S. should take out Saddam Hussein. His headlined? "Why We Should Kill Saddam." "Assassination may be Clinton's best option," the future "This Week" host urged. "If we can kill Saddam, we should." There is no doubt that what Stephanopoulos said was absolutely correctly, and should have been done by the way. However that doesn't excuse the fact that Pat Robertson was the topic de jour of MSNBC earlier this week. It is just sickening and sad that our media is so liberal that they made a huge deal out of what Robertson said, but didn't give the same attention to Stephanopoulos' comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: jpk Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:13 PM you get right down to it,when i needed a little help after my wife passed,the state agency's gave no help[long story and why i hate lawyers],howeve the various chuch groups around here did[and not just my own curch]. so much for our godless govt,liberal or consevative. good day all |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:00 PM Don, I can assure that... 1. There are many Christian conservatives who also denounce Robertson regularly. His "getting it wrong" only makes it doubly hard for conservative Christians to express what they believe to be a more accurate expression of Christianity in the political world. 2. There are many Christian conservatives who make their communities better places to live. As I said before, they volunteer their time to teach literacy in jails and prisons, feed the poor, care for those needing medical care, donate large amounts of income to aid the poor. I can assure that that kind of caring is, though painted as the sole domain of left-leaning, liberal Christians by the likes of Wallis, not so. You may not have met them -- that is clear. But I can assure you that your black and white view of the Christian world is much too simple. And insulting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:49 PM "godless commies," jpk? Considering the context, that's a pretty wierd accusation. No, just telling it like it is. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: jpk Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM from my earler comment you know my thought of pr. but your constsnt put downs of so called right wingers,just goes to reinforce the idea that left wingers or nothing more than godless commies hiding in the closet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM It is Christians who must denounce Robertson and his message, just like it is Muslims who must denounce their religious leaders who spread hate. I notice that most Christians lend support to Robertson and his ilk by remaining silent. dianavan (and others),be aware that many—many—Christians are denouncing Robertson and the whole Christian Right thing. They are not remaining silent. But they are being completely ignored by the media. Demagogues like Pat Robertson are much more newsworthy, apparently. Above, 25 Aug 05 – 09:48 PM, Arkie quotes from an article by the Rev. Jim Wallis, entitled "Pat Robertson: An embarrassment to the church." The full article, along with several other articles, have been e-mailed to the subscribers to the Sojourners newsletter, and they can be accessed at the Sojourners web site HERE. Unfortunately, to get to the full article(s), you have to register, which some folks may not want to do. This specific article is very outspoken about Robertson and his ilk. What drew my attention to this magazine was an article Wallis wrote a couple of years ago entitled "Dangerous Religion," in which he discusses George W. Bush's attempts to religiously justify his policies. The Rev. Jim Wallis is a writer for and the editor of Sojourners Magazine, to which many Christians (and others) subscribe. Rev. Wallis has also written a book entitled God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It. This book is getting a great amount of discussion in churches and neighborhood groups. Unfortunately, Jim Wallis does not have his own television show. Wallis is definitely not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. Among others is the Fellowship of Reconciliation, an ecumenical organization with its headquarters in Nyack, New York, but it has chapters all over the country—all over the world, in fact. Also the Lutheran Peace Fellowship, for which my wife, Barbara, was national director for about a decade, and which is now headed by Glen Gershmehl (offices at Central Lutheran Church in Seattle). Many churches of various denominations are very much in agreement with Wallis's complaints about the religious right and strongly object to the way they're attempting to trample on religious freedom in this country. Many are fully aware of the danger: up until now, religions have been relatively safe from government interference, but government is no longer safe from religious interference. If this is not checked, the ultimate result could be something like a sort of American Christian-Right "Taliban." No real Christian wants that. And a huge number of Christians also object when the media says "Christians say. . . ." when it's some nincompoop like Robertson or Falwell, or someone from the far-right Southern Leadership Conference making the statement, and it is definitely not representative of the beliefs of Christians in general. While liberal and progressive Christians tend to work to better conditions in the community through a whole range of programs such as free meals, finding housing for the homeless, conduction conflict resolution workshops, and yes, sponsoring peace organizations, the Christian Right is out there bellowing their lungs out and getting the media attention by calling for assassinations, poking their noses into your bedrooms, and getting Harry Potter yanked from library shelves. To say that "Christians do this or believe that" (implying all Christians, it's like saying "All Indians walk in single file. At least the one I saw did." I think that's called "prejudice." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Arkie Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:10 PM Pat Roberston was the son of a Senator from Virginia, I can't remember his first name, who served in the Senate in the shadow of Harry Byrd. I lived in Portsmouth when Robertson began his Christian network and when Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker began their so-called ministry there. It was interesting to watch the growth of that television ministry. While they did not practice Christianity in the manner that I was accustomed I could accept the diversity within the faith. I do feel that Robertson and many of the TV, radio and traveling evangelists have gone too far, and that some of the lot are no more than thieves. What I do not understand is why people who attempt to be fair in their approach to all other aspects of life would choose to assess Christianity solely by the worst of its representatives and by those who are clearly charlatans and not representative at all. I know of many communities that are far better for the presences of Christians who do not go around proclaiming all the good they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 26 Aug 05 - 11:47 PM To: John Hardly: I was NOT kidding when I said that "christians are a dangerous lot." They are. Look at all the war and pestilence that they have caused in "Jesus's name!" As to Joe offer, would that we had more like him. I know of some of the good that he does. And, thank gawd, he doesn't seem to do it in the name of GAWD! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: dianavan Date: 26 Aug 05 - 11:22 PM The ridicule that Christians must endure is brought about by television evangelists like Robertson. Most religions do not use t.v. to spread the word. My family would tune in and laugh at their acts. Even as children, we would imitate the t.v. evangelists. My father actually encouraged us by being our audience. I agree with Deckman, Christians are a dangerous lot. Especially when they get together in groups and try to impose their misguided values on others. I try to stay away from them as much as possible. It is Christians who must denounce Robertson and his message, just like it is Muslims who must denounce their religious leaders who spread hate. I notice that most Christians lend support to Robertson and his ilk by remaining silent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Peace Date: 26 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM PPS, That was NOT directed at anyone here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Peace Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:47 PM PS, I firmly believe that all people have the right to the religion of their choice--and I don't require exp[lanations from anyone as to why an individual chose or chooses to keep a particular belief. But I get really fed up when they insist on prosetelyzing. Yes, they have the right to believe as they choose. They also have the right to shut up about it, and I wish they would. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Peace Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:41 PM John, I won't presume to speak for anyone else. In fact, I agree that Christians like Falwell and Robertson are dangerous. But, fact is, they ain't Christians. Jesus is a means by which they get power, and their expressions of hatred attest to that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: John Hardly Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:36 PM Actually, I seem to remember Harvard or Yale for Robertson. Ivy League, anyway. Funny thing, this Christianity. It is so diverse in beliefs that it spans everything from Mormon to Catholic, and yet, most in it can't run far or fast enough from the others who claim to be it. In churches I attended as a youth, there was a fair amount of belief that those of Robertson's ilk were actually .....okay, I'll say it ...influenced by demonic forces. Seems that if you accept the probability of the supernatural, if some folks are doin' something weird that you can't explain, well, you fall to a supernatural explanation. Seemed spooky as a kid. As an adult it seems misguided -- but I'm quick to admit, I could be wrong. I know Christians who, for the sake of their beliefs, have given up much of this life's comfort. They work as doctors in the third world, they work as literacy teachers in our prisons (my town of 12,000 has a jail that holds 1,000), They prepare taxes for the elderly, they bring meals to shut-ins, they sacrifice their own comfort and share their houses with others who have lost theirs. I know many Christians who would take very seriously the direction of Jesus to turn the other cheek, love their enemy, do good to those who persecute you, carry their luggage the extra mile. I recently had a friend relate a story to me. In converstion, it had come out that he had done something quite self-sacrificing. Tooting his horn was clearly not his intent in the telling. Interesting, it came out as a natural progression of what we were talking about, but suddenly, my friend became mortified at the lack of humility he showed in the telling. Yes, there are still Christians whom I know well who do not feel that it is right to talk about their "good deeds". First, they consider good deeds to be baseline behavior -- not "above and beyond" -- not something about which to be proud, rather, something to be expected. Second, anyone involved in giving their life away cannot do so while expecting a return on the behavior. I have struggled with Christians I know who do, like Robertson, seem to have trouble distinguishing their Christian belief from patriotism. I think that Christianity should most definitely inform my civic participation. It is irresponsible, when faced with the ability to have input in the democratic process of deciding moral issues, to remain uninvolved. And I see a strong reaction to our country's religious history that has many wishing to disqualify Christians from the public forum, the public debate. I think I understand what motivates it, but I disagree with it as vehemently as I disagree with my brothers who feel as though we can somehow legislate our country to morality. I was raised around many who believed in a very apocolyptic escatology. I try to be more optimistic, but even I, as mellowed through the years as I might have become from that belief, have to admit that I can see the day coming when there will be a gleeful attempt to exterminate Christians. For nearly 20 years I had come to doubt that. Then I got a computer and started reading on forums like this. It was really eye-opening to see the unmitigated hatred for Christianity. Even if I have to admit that, Christianity taken as discussed here -- that indiscriminately includes Robertson with any other Christian -- has brought much of the hatred upon itself, I couldn't bring myself to believe in a world ever accepting of a 1930's scenario again. I just couldn't make myself believe that. I can now. I hope I'm wrong. When Deckman refers to the Christians as a "dangerous lot" we all know he's not including Joe Offer, right? ......and he's just kidding, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Peace Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:19 PM Very well said, Don. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM A random musing. People like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Brother Ralph, the Bakkers, et al, make a helluva lot of noise about being Christians while at the same time demonstrating that although they can quote "chapter and verse" (tending to quote only certain chapters and verses), they really don't have even a whiff of a clue as to what Jesus was talking about. Whether Jesus was "the Son of God" or just some itinerant rabbi who developed a rather confused following while wandering around the Middle East some 2,000 years ago, he did have some pretty good things to say about how we should treat other people and how we should all get along, and thereby make this a better world. Perhaps, just perhaps, that was the Kingdom of Heaven he was talking about, not some airy-fairy place in the afterlife (if any). And what he talked about doesn't include assassinating heads of state with whom our potentate happens to disagree over matters of disposition of natural resources that doesn't belong to our potentate, but which our potentate covets. Regard for and behavior toward others—especially warm regard and benevolent behavior—is what seems to get lost in most of the sermons and screeds that the above-mentioned crew and their ilk foist on the viewers of their miscellaneous television shows. If they would use their "bully pulpits" (my, what an interesting term!!) to actually talk about what Jesus talked about rather than trying to make national and international policy, force their beliefs down the throats of the rest of the county, and how "God's gonna get you for that!" instead, turning their attention to feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, and caring for the less fortunate—as Jesus said we should—they might suddenly find themselves talking like a bunch of bleeding-heart liberals. Lord Almighty!! We can't have that!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:37 PM This all reminds me of that WONDERFULL film made right around the early sixtiess ... "Elmer Gantry." It starred Burt Lancaster. That's the pentecostal church I well remember. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:10 PM But weas it enough for a one way ticket? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: frogprince Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:03 PM I grew up with the radio tuned to country stations, hearing older incarnations of the Blackwood Brothers Quartet regularly. So the "Blackwood Brothers" turned up in our area a few years ago, and I bit. They didn't lay hands on anybody, but they covered most of the schock cliches. They said (who knows) that they would be going to Russia, so they took a collection and said, "Dig deep, folks, we're fightin' communism here." So I looked at my check log, to be sure I wrote them a check for as much as I could at the time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM Geeze Don, here we are doing a "tag team" again. I well remember him. When I was a kritter, and I was once, My American grandmother used to take me to the summer revival tent shows in Portland, Oregon. Her favorite was called "The Wings Of Healing." It had everything ... hands on healing ... speaking in tongues ... a cast of a thousand! I well remember when he placed his hands on a "blind" man, prayed to the lord jesus christ, and lo and behold ... this man could see. Another man could hear (glory hallejuah ... amen brother). My dissapoinment came when I wandered backstage, looking for a place to pee, and I saw the "blind" man and the "deaf" man laughing and enjoying a bottle of whiskey. (a very true story). Oh well, we all have to do something to make a living. CHEERS, your friend, Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:27 PM Bob, there's many a person, some truly religious, some not so religious, who suddently wake up one morning and say, "I think I'll make myself a prophet!" (You can spell that a couple of ways.) I recall a guy named Brother Ralph J. Sander of the Revival Center (used to meet in and broadcast from the old Moore Theater). He would tell the listening audience to "Put your hands on your radio and you'll get that glorious feeling!" He forgot to say that to "get that glorious feeling," it helps if you stand in a bucket of water. He'd end his program with a plea for funds. "Keep sending in those cards and letters, folks. And your contributions! Don't forget your contibutions! Send them to Post Office Box 888, Seattle, Washington. That's Box 888, the same forewards, backwards, and upside down!" Every six months he would run off to Tijuana with a female teen-ager from the congregation and the Revival Center's fairly substantial funds. They'd haul him back, he'd whine and grovel, saying that because he is such a devout person, the Devil pays extra-special attention to trying to break him. He'd beg forgiveness, they'd forgive him, and six months later, he'd grab a teen-ager, a valise full of money, and he was off to Tijuana again. That old Devil was certainly persistent. Pat Robertson has a much bigger operation than Brother Ralph, and he's a bit more articulate, but they're right out of the same cookie-cutter. They're both buffoons! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM Peace, Being a karpenter, I appreciate your tip. Maybe I'll throw a couple of decks of cards into my toolbox tonight. That should really help production! Lest anyone think that I'm anti-religious, or even anti-christian, I would like to relate this story: Last Saturday I actually sang at a memorial service ... in a real live ... honest to gosh ....... church! My daughter attended, as this was service for her best friend's late Father. Whilst we were waiting for the service to start, I sat with her and my wife. As the people started filling up the church, I got my daughter and my wife in a huddle, crouching low in the pew. I cautioned them to be alert, as the "christians were arriving." I explained to them that I have always known that "christians" are a dangerous lot. First they start to arrive. Then they multiply. Then they congregate. As soon as enough of them have congregated, they start to feel enpowered. (or is it empowered)? That's when they get dangerous. Next, they start to take themselves very, very seriously. This is when we should start looking for the exits. I have known ONE christian in my life who I truly respect, and that was because he had the ability to not take himself too seriously. Why ... he could even laugh at himself ... imagine that! I've never checked, but I suspect that Pat Robertson's college degree came from a school of business somewhere. CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Peace Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:49 PM Robertson is a capitalist, promoter, entertainer and a gifted person at attracting people whose intelligence is barely above that of my old Labrador--and that is questionable. As a by the way, there are juuuuusssssst about 91 playing cards to the inch (in case you ever lose your tape measure while doing a home carpentry project). |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Deckman Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:15 PM This thread has so inspired me that I think I'll do something religious. What to do, what to do? Oh, I know ... I'll take up a collection! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM In Mr. Robertson's case he is not swimming like a duck, quacking like a duck, and his feathers do not look like a duck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM I can call myself a plumber. I can spend a lot of time browsing through a manual on plumbing. I may even think that I really am a plumber. Other people may truly believe that I am a plumber. Maybe I even own a wrench. But if, on many occasions, I more than amply demonstrated that I haven't the foggiest notion of what plumbing is all about, is it surprising that many people, including ordained, practicing plumbers tend to find my claim a bit less than credible? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: frogprince Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM But, Kendall: If you grew up in an auto plant, chances are you're a car. I would say that, ideally, a church is a place to build Christians, not just a place to store them. I know, the cliche you quoted does have it's point: don't assume that everyone who has spent time in church is a Christian, especially if the assumption is about yourself. But to fundamentalists I've known, a child who has been raised in church, and at home, as a Christian, and who loves Jesus and tries to follow him, is still not a Christian until he has a properly stylized conversion experience. Conversion from what, to what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: kendall Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes you a car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Kill the President of... From: Bunnahabhain Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:02 AM Unfortunatly, that tired old excuse is generally true. It does imply that the people making it are true followers of whichever faith, but doesn't guarntee it. The true followers are probably the quite and peaceful ones who you don't hear from very often, if ever. |
