BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

Can any of us really answer "are we anti-Irish/?"? I don't think so. We can each answer " Am I* anti-Irish?", though.

I'm not anti-Irish. I am anti-murdering bastard though, regardless of race, colour, religion, and regardless of if they're in 10 Downing St or some flat building nail-bombs



* I meaning the person answering, just in case someone doesn't like this and is determined to misinterpret it to find something objectionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:45 AM

Dear Ooh-Aah2
Sorry but we did win ! Don't for a second think the work of all our active service units home and aboard was a waste of time. Do you have any idea just how close your government was to cracking in 1994 ? We will win our islands freedom, and I doubt there will many Ooh Aah's come out of you then ? save if for your football terraces. Regarding your silly remarks about our volunteers blowing up children in Supermarkets. Our units never went out to do that. Yes there were operations which went wrong, but they were few. Unlike the murderous actions of your failed army whilst in my lands. What's it like to belong to an nation that has the highest rate of brutal child murders per head of popular in europe ? I really can see where you are coming from here. Our lads are out of jails which they should never have been in and many made local government and got on well in life, and your soldiers went home with a general service medal and Northern Ireland clasp. Really I can feel for you, but please don't allow your bitterness to eat you like a cancer, by the way check with your government on their latest offer to us, Provisional Irish Republican Army volunteers can become police officers if Sinn Fein accept seats on the policing board. I bet all along your government felt our men should of been in charge of law and order on the streets here, which in fact they were ! So go on forget your sad face and join us in a smile, after all with your government throwing sweets at us every week we have every reason to smile !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:36 AM

Great post, Grab.

"As far as Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) goes, I can confirm that there *are* people who are anti-Irish.... Which just goes to show that everywhere has its share of arseholes"

Excellent stuff!

All we really want to know is the rough percentage, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:33 AM

Graham, I must say that though we disagree on Tiocfaidh's statements/assertions, I do appreciate the fact that you are polite about it. And that was the point I was trying to make. It's difficult for me to read through the insults in order to get to the substance when one becomes defensive. I love a good argument myself, but one that's based on information and not jabs. I like to understand everyone's point of view instead of feeling like I just watched an episode of South Park. :) Again, thank-you Graham.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:18 AM

Odd, too, that English people don't mind calling themselves 'European'. Grab didn't make that extra obvious step, in annotating his sense of belonging.

Nope, I didn't. I can if you want - like small children write on their addresses: "England, Britain, United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way, The Universe". Does this make you happy? I thought the point was sufficiently obvious, but perhaps not.

For the record then, so that there is no misunderstanding, I have better things to do with my time than classify myself according to regional/national origin, because my experience is that it's a meaningless exercise. I'll willingly classify myself according to my political, religious and social views, and according to my hobbies and interests. And I'd expect others to do the same as well, because it's *those* things that define your personality. The definition of racism is a belief that national origin inevitably predisposes you to certain character traits (and particularly deficiencies). I don't happen to share that belief.

Incidentally, you might like to note that NI Protestants are *not* British, by the very definition of "Great Britain" comprising England, Scotland and Wales. This may make Ian Paisley and his merry men unhappy, but he's a racist wanker, so fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

The fairly scientific poll we did on the Mudcat posts, showed a marked bias

Interesting. How did you conduct this "fairly scientific poll", and what's your criteria for there being a "marked bias"? If it's on the basis of anti-Irish comments that don't receive a response, I trust you're aware of the "don't feed the trolls" principle?

Epona, I have to disagree with you. So far, all Tír Eoghain and Tiocfaidh have given are assertions and no substance. If they can point us at their reasons for thinking this, we can start to talk sensibly. A straight assertion that "you're all anti-Irish" is bound to come back with the response "no we're not!". If someone wants to prove that there's unconscious discrimination, they need to *prove* that otherwise they won't be taken seriously. As indeed all the English members of Mudcat are currently not taking Tír Eoghain and Tiocfaidh seriously.

So far, Dave everybody has come across it. That's a fair batting average for a start

As far as Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) goes, I can confirm that there *are* people who are anti-Irish, anti-European, anti-American, anti-black, anti-Chinese, anti-Indian/Pakistani, anti-Muslim and anti-Jew. I've met some of them, and it doesn't surprise me that you have too. I've also met some unpleasant French and German people. From the papers and from what's been posted above though, it seems that Ireland also has people with these biases too. Which just goes to show that everywhere has its share of arseholes.

However, you've yet to show that the *majority* share any of those prejudices. Fionn's post above explicitly says that he *doesn't* find this. In what way do your experiences contradict Fionn's?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Standish....

You are a prince among men.

Up to the top of the Class, with you, and take a bar of chocolate...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Standish Hayes O'Grady
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:33 AM

H'are you saying, Sir, that English people can be British, but that all British people are not necessarily English?

Or indeed vice versa?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:37 AM

... Probably too subtle for artbrooks, Epona...

McGrath, you're confusing the issue here too... Easy on the 'racism', and concentrate on the word 'bias'. The World is awash with misconceptions at the minute, and we are finding it difficult to pin people down to the point we are discussing.

So far NONE of the Irish, or Irish-related, posters have said that they have not, either experienced it, or witnessed it in their day to day: an Anti-Irish bias.

So far, Dave everybody has come across it. That's a fair batting average for a start
(Remember the scale is from 'apathetic' to 'downright hostile')

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 10:58 PM

I don't know, art...How does that make you British? Tiocfaidh asked what made you proud to be British and from your statement earlier that you were of Irish, English, French and German descent, I surmised that T was refering to the pride you had in your English/British ancestry. (Great Britain the term was used as early as 1604 as far as I can dig up. Did your family emigrate before that?). I'm sure T will answer your question later if my explanation is not satisfactory. If it is satisfactory, though, glad I could be of some use and please, carry on with the discussion.

:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:53 PM

Epona, how does that make me British? I don't even think Great Britain existed when my English ancestors came over.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:43 PM

Think Tiocfaidh was talking about your pride in your British heritage (Irish, English, French, German). :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Tiocfaidh, did you read my post? I am not British. I am an American.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:30 PM

There's a minority of people in England whose racism takes in the Irish, and that's actually got a good side, because they tend to be the same kind of creeps who are racist in other directions. There was an expression one time reflecting that - "toasted Irishman", meaning someone from an Afro-Caribbean background. Why I say it's got a good side is that it's probably a kind of protection for some people against slipping into those kinds of racism.

But antagonism towards Irish people is a minority sport in my experience, in the parts of the country I've lived in anyway. Ignorance about Ireland and Irish history, that's a different matter, but then most English people tend to be pretty ignorant about England and English history, and that's down to the education system rather than prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:06 PM

What makes you proud to be British, art?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:59 PM

You seem to totally disregard the experiences of the Irish, here, artbrooks.

".. who here has said anything... even remotely negative... other than people from Ireland recounting things that happened to them or a friend or a relative at some time or another?"

Does everything have to be pointed out in such a Freudian manner, art?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:43 PM

Tiocfaidh, yes, I guess I do need more assistance. Other than GUEST Ooh-Aah-2 (with his odd comment about an "Irish way of being boring") who here has said anything anti- or even remotely negative about the Irish, other than people from Ireland recounting things that happened to them or a friend or a relative at some time or another? The English who have responded have all said that they are not anti-Irish and that they believe that their society, other then some isolated cases, also is not anti-Irish. If you choose to doubt their truthfulness, so be it, but if they are saying something else, in some code that an American of Irish and English (and French and German) descent cannot understand, than please educate me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

"Whatever would we do without you telling us all how we think?"

Probably go on thinking that the average Brit isn't anti-Irish.

I am optimistic, Guest.

I am optimistic that the general British Public will wake up one morning very soon and examine their humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:21 PM

Whatever would we do without you telling us all how we think? Try and wake up tomorrow with a more forward looking optimistic demeanour.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

"The animosity you harbour is all yours."

That is about as comforting as listening to a hip-hop version of 'Sailing By', Guest.

'In real life' you can be magnanimous as you want to be, about the Irish.
The prejudice is nearly always 'anonymous'; a fact that in and of itself does not bother me (various permutations of 'Ohh-Ahh' would nearly suffice, however), but it just goes to show how unwilling the average Brit is to admit it.

It's nearly a guilt complex, some of you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM

We won't be getting anywhere will we, until we collectively do a five minute Jim Davidson routine. And it isn't going to happen.

The animosity you harbour is all yours. You seem to be having trouble understanding that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

You're substantiating Tiocfaidh's argument, GUEST and Ooh-Aah2. I am very interested in this thread. Yet I see several Irish people laying well-defined points and then I see answers from several that would call themselves British (English perhaps?) that are ugly with only harsh words and quips for response. I would really like to know the answer to Dave the Gnome's question that started this thread and I think that maybe we've all seen that if not yet proven to be among the average Brit, an anti-Irish bent does truly rest here with some of our fellow mudcatters. Maybe you're having a bad day perhaps? If so, I really do hope tomorrow is better for you.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

It is nowhere near Pythonesque, Guest.
It's sad, that's what it is...

Explain to me why you chose the image of the 'hair shirt wearing men'?

Had we been 'Coloured', would you have used the 'bone through the nose' image?

We are trying to get to the heart of 'Britishness', and how the average member of that super-group of Primates see themselves in the World.

... and all you can do is to show us how you see others.

Are we getting anywhere yet, do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM

This is getting very monty python. Picture the group of confused looking hair shirt wearing men, running around lashing themselves with nettles and bramble.

" C'mon now lads, if the bastards won't admit they hate us, we'll thrash ourselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

Yes, artbrooks.

Point 2 has yet to be:
1. Defined

2. Accepted

Point 3 is also misleading in it's premise:

"Yes the average Brit is, and why can't you admit it?"The statement should read

Need any further assistance?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

1. The thread originator, who identifies himself as British, asks "are we anti-Irish?"

2. The British (or English, if you prefer) say, unanimously and resoundingly, "no!"

3. The Irish respondents say, equally unanimously, "yes you are, all of you, and why can't you admit it?"

Did I miss anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:08 PM

Cricket, beachcomber.

We have to beat them at Cricket, yet....

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

Guest Ooh Aah 2 you seem to be missing some crucial points in this thread.
The fact of the matter is that while we are willing to debate this topic with prejudiced people , we really don't give a damn nowadays.
All you need to do, to find the modern evidence of what we assert, is , pick up any of your British Newspapers, almost any day, or listen, with a less prejudiced ear, to your broadcast media.
Why are you so unable to accept that we have thrived, after much approbrium and many mistakes on our part,as a sovreign nation and have now caught you up, in many spheres ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM

.... and anyway, we're not going on about 'stuff that happened centuries ago'.

We are being so entirely present-day.

The thing about it is, Ooh-Ahh2, we are not polling your take on history. Nor, indeed, are we polling the nature of your gripes.
We don't want to necessarily know why the average Brit is anti-Irish....

...just that you accept that he or she is.

You are performing admirably, I can assure you

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:23 PM

"The common English folk knew little and cared less"

Exactly, Ooh-Ahh2. As the veritable Tír Chonaill has said:
"The British Establishment has treated it's citizens like the proverbial mushroom over the years.
... it's the old saying..., you are what you eat."

"The Irish have a right to feel disgusted while they look back at the nasty and pointless English/British entanglement in Ireland", but "This means when you go on about stuff that happened centuries ago we get the conclusion that you're whingers, grudge bearers and lacking in historical discrimination"

Can't really win with that logic, can one, Ooh-Ahh2?

Why not just admit you're anti-Irish, and stop making us all laugh...?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Tiocfaidh, ard, Curator,
If your lucky enough to be Irish, your lucky enough. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:09 PM

Win? Win? We got out of Ireland and you think YOU won? If it wasn't for the fact that we will not give in to people who blow up little boys in supermarkets, we would have glady left the whole soggy dump years ago.

Isn't it just astonishing to have all these whinging Irishmen writing in to complain about English/British intolerance, which they know all about because they have lived there for years. Think carefully about that!

The Irish have a right to feel disgusted while they look back at the nasty and pointless English/British entanglement in Ireland. However they will have to eventually come to terms with the fact that only a tiny ruling elite bears responsibility for the lot of it. The common English folk knew little and cared less. This means when you go on about stuff that happened centuries ago we get the conclusion that you're whingers, grudge bearers and lacking in historical discrimination, (hence thinking killing English children and women who try to comfort dying soldiers is a worthwhile activity)as well as singing through the nose in that horrid way. If one came across an English person who continually bored one with dismal songs about the Royalist defeat at the battle of Edghill, and sang them at you as if you were personally responsible, then you would quickly come to understand why SOME Irish are viewed as tedious little shites.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM

Flanders & Swann, eh?
Ironic, eh?
"No, because there are no anti-Irish songs to offset the anti-English songs"

Your National Anthem springs to mind for one, Lanfranc.

I think the point being made is 'Institutionalised'
That usually means 'you don't spot it'
Which in turn means, 'you don't spot it when you're guilty of it'

'Don't push your luck, Paddy', eh?

We did, Lanfranc
And we won.

"But as far as school bullying goes, I'd still say it is usually a case of any excuse sufficing.", and as you know, Peter K, being Irish is a good an excuse as any.

That is the sad reality of anti-Irish feeling. It's as acceptable as the jokes we all know and hate

And half the time the average Brit doesn't realise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:08 PM

I was living in Worcester in October 1974 when an active service unit was busy in the West End of London. Something the British stuck the wrong people in prison for. Anyway the guy I was staying with advised me to think about getting back to Ireland as soon as possible due to the anti Irish feeling throughout England.I saw it first hand and it was nasty. Irish families that had lived there for years became targets. None that I was aware of were Republicans. I can accept the English feeling towards the units that were operating in London, Birmingham and Manchester at that time, but to wreck Irish owned corner shops and public houses showed me more about their mentality than ours. I see it's again occuring again against the muslims. This natinality and culture has brought wealth to this country, and the nation that brought us combat 18 and the National Front are again making life miserable for non W.A.S.P.'s. I know many English men and women that lived long and happy lives in the North of Ireland throughout the troubles without a word said against them. In fact many were friends of mine. But then again we are Irish !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM

I wouldn't take issue with what you say arc mhacha, and whatever prejudice exists is likely to be more pronounced in towns like Chatham that have strong military connections (naval in Chatam's case).

But as far as school bullying goes, I'd still say it is usually a case of any excuse sufficing. I've been a school governor for nearly 20 years, and in my experience it's as likely to be because the victim is from a deprived background, overweight or just different in the slightest way, as because the victim is black, Irish, from a traveller family or whatever. In all cases it can be carried to horrific lengths, occasionally ending with suicides. As far as I can see, it's just a sad reality of human nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:23 PM

Peter that family I had my information from lived in Chatham Kent, the man worked for British Rail, his young family of school going age still retained their Irish accents as they hadn`t long moved. When he was in Ireland on holiday I spoke to the two young girls, they told me it was hell, constant bullying in the playground, the father approached the headmaster and while he tried to help, it still went on, the father eventually was transferred to London and the new Catholic School was a big improvement.

Peter I listened to my English workmates and their prejudice against the Blacks was an eye-opener for me, I had no problem, due to the fact that I played football and Cricket for the firm.

Here in the north of Ireland the eastern Europeans,Portogese, Filipinos,and Chinese are the victims of Loyalists gangs who won`t allow anyone but Protestants in their areas, as a result the Cathilic districts in the town are now very much multi-racial, I hope the migrants are left in peace, so far they are settling in ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:21 PM

No, because there are no anti-Irish songs to offset the anti-English songs that the Irish sing. At a recent session it was suggested that, as the IRA had "ceased the armed struggle", it is now OK to sing Irish rebel songs again. If it is, I will have to revise Harvey Andrews' "The Soldier" as an antidote, although it is not anti-Irish, just anti-murderous bomber.

Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice" is about as close as one can get to an anti-Irish song, and that is really only ironic!

"The Irishman, now, all contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and lies in his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third"

On the whole, in answer to the question posed in this thread, "No".

But don't push your luck, Paddy!

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:54 AM

Dsve - easy with the Scottish being British idea! :) Up until 5 years ago when my grandpa Campbell died (born and raised in Glasgow), he would make at least one remark at every gathering that he was a proud Scotsman, no matter what lines the British drew on a map. This idea of English/British, Scottish/British, and Welsh/British could turn into a whole other thread! :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:03 AM

"... How long did those making the assumptions about the anti irishness of brits, spend living on the UK mainland?"

Claims, Guest. Claims.

I've lived in the 'UK' all my life, and members of my family live in various places closer to the pulsing heart of it than I.
If the Kingdom is United, what difference does it make as to the part of it, I'm in?
Your statement itself is exclusionist...

When one experiences more suspicion than welcome in one's everyday, it has to set a fella thinkin'

(... on the move at the minute...)

I'll be BACK!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:46 AM

There has been a kind of institutional contempt among elements of the "Brits" for centuries against the Irish. People like Thomas Carlile put their names to disgraceful essays along such lines.

As Kendall says, it was largely driven by economic concerns, or if I could be more specific, by mass ignorance of the economic realities - ignorance that was readily and easily exploited by a few Brits with political, vested interests.

It is comparable with the racism that has flourished in Britain, America, many other countries, and now Ireland itself. The reason that such selfish attitudes were slower to catch on in Ireland than in Britain or the USA has nothing to do with any kind of Irish moral superiority. It is simply that until recently the ignorant in Ireland saw no risk of being inundated by relatively more disadvanted people against whom they could discriminate, and over whom they could feel themselves to be superior.

All of this miasma of ill-will, from wherever it originates, and wherever it is directed, owes nothing to nationality and everything to the least pleasing aspects of human nature.

To Ard's post, where he speculates about how the Provo campaign may have affected attitudes to the Irish in Britain, I would just add that I know Irish nationalists who lived in Birmingham (as I did) in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where in 1974 the IRA accomplished what was then the biggest mass murder in British history. Any hostility they encountered was more than offset by the concern of others to counteract such prejudice. No doubt there were cases of school bullying, though I didn't hear of it. That cannot be defended, but then schoolkids have an almost unfathomable capacity to torment peers for even the most trivial of reasons - all equally beyond justification.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM

Woodsie,

I think that the Anti-Irish, "well-known kentish folk performer" should be named - so we can all boycott his gigs!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM

I doubt that Oliver Cromwell represented the opinion of most English people.

"When Cromwell came to Ireland long ago,
He didn't shed a drop of blood you know,
And the people started grieving
When they heard that he was leaving
If I knew a bigger lie I'd tell you so."   (The Liar)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM

Let's tackle this from another position..

1. How long did those making the assumptions about the anti irishness of brits, spend living on the UK mainland?

2.Where did you live?

3.What have you based your assumptions on?

It is often those holding the assumptions about another that need to do the homework on prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

Amongst the folk community in London and the South-east I have experienced an underlying hatred of Irish. I am Irish but have a london/cockney accent, a lot of people do not realise who I am and inadvertently reveal their true colours. Irish joke are commonplace along with comments such as "thick paddies" "irish bastards" "what do you expect from a mad irish woman". Just last night when discussing the film "Gangs Of New York" one well known kentish folk performer stated "New York was a clean, civilised place when the british had it - it only went downhill when the Irish pigs arrived" this same bloke will often sing irish songs in his set!

There is also an underlying jealousy of the Irish folk tradition and it's recent successful revival. There is a session in Greenwich which actually bans the playing of Irish music, some of the players there have openly claimed that the Irish stole all their best tunes from the english.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM

Doesn't matter what else 'anti-' they are, Dave. The fact that they also hate everything else doesn't make the situation any easier for the Irish.

"If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? "

Take a straw poll of those who refer to themselves as British (as opposed to purely 'Scottish' or 'Welsh') in those countries, and see, Dave

But I don't think we're going down that road, just yet

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:29 AM

Thanks, Mick - Nice to get the view of someone from across the pond as well. It is just the point I was making. No-one in my extended family or group of friends are anti-Irish. Apart from the odd comments I have seen on here on Mudcat by what I believe to be a tiny minority of people (Including the odd American btw) I have never come across anyone who is particulary anti-Irish. I admit I do know people who are anti everything and everybody not British, including the Irish, but in my mind that makes them generic racists and NOT specificaly anti-Irish.

I still think the statement is unfounded and would like to see some evidence before I even begin to consider it vaguely factual. As I have said before I will accept that there is anti-Irish feeling in Britain. I will just not accept that the 'average Brit' is any more anti-Irish than the average human being.

On the English/British thing again. If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:09 AM

'Needless predjudice', perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:06 AM

"...a very Irish way of being boring"

Very good, Ooh Aah2.

What exactly does that mean, now?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ohh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:05 AM

Or even prejudice, Gods forbid.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:03 AM

The vast majority of Irish people are fine, its just that bores like Tir Eoghian have such a very Irish way of being boring that it creates needless predjudice against the wider Irish community.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:34 PM

Sorry, missed this one:
"but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped." - DB

Undoubtedly, DB.
'Marketing' and spin have always tipped the balance.

That is the process we are now going through...

The Irish Nationalist in the North of Ireland has always basically known that the Media held the key to English Public Opinion here; if the Prime Minister depends on the endorsement of 'The Sun' to win an election, for instance, what can centuries of institutionalised Anti-Irishness do for the heavily-shielded-from-reality English public?

Cast your mind back to WMDs, David Kelly, and the pictures from the Iraqi prisons.

It is very hard for an Establishment who wants it's citizens to trust its' take on things to keep the deception up, when its' dirty linen is constantly getting washed in public.
That's one of the advantages of the technological age; more transparency.

In my opinion there will always be 'war-mongerers'.
And there will always be people who support such 'war-mongerers' blindly, irrespective of any moral or ethical constraint they are asked to observe.

How they convince their Electorate is what really matters, however.
How they play to an already elated sense of importance is vital.
If they want their 'enemies' to appear 'evil', they will have the Public convinced very soon.
If that doesn't help, they'll concoct a few incidents.... they have in the past, they'll do in the future if they have to.

The British Establishment has treated it's citizens like the proverbial mushroom over the years.
... it's the old saying..., you are what you eat.

Odd, too, that English people don't mind calling themselves 'European'.
Grab didn't make that extra obvious step, in annotating his sense of belonging.

The old habits die hard.

That is the point