Irish music : why is it in D and G ?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

Sorry, Tim - original Irish music was not from harps.

It was from vocal-chords, (the only musical instrument created by God.)

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 07:16 PM

You want to try and play with a Northumbrian piper!

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM

I know very little of the musicology of any music type but wasnt the music from olden days in Ireland played on Harps.
Maybe one of you educated types could tell me if that has any bearing on the quetion?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:40 PM

> written in D and G ?
and
> tallied the keys of the first 60 songs (meaning tunes) in O'Neill's Music of Ireland.

Who knows what key these tunes were written in? Captain O'Neill collected the tunes as they were played and wrote them down- that doesn't mean they were originally composed or played in those keys.

For example, Carolan's tunes will have been written to be played on a harp- unlikely to be in the same keys as they are played in on today's instruments.

Most people here are answering a different question: Why are so many Irish tunes played in D and G?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 04:02 PM

Sooz, your theory holds good across one octave, but not two. In fact the fiddle is much less orientated to any specific key(s) than several other instruments. And I don't think Pauline's theory is convincing either. There's not much double-stopping in Irish traditional! (Certainly not comparied with bluegrass, or the Tchaikovsky violin concerto.) Making life easy for fiddlers might, however, be one reason why this music is so determinedly rooted in "first position".

Uillean pipes came on the scene relatively late. so I'd be surprised if they were a major influence on what keys were used. Maybe their cruder precursors were a factor, but flutes - whether side- or end-blown) might have been a more likely influence.

MudGuard, I take your point about what came first. My money would be on the intruments influencing the key pitches. rather than the other way round. Otherwise why is a broader range of keys not used?)

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM

Good point MudGuard. Difficult to tell cause and effect - but since fiddles have been such a standard item for British Isles music for such a long time, any pieces in other keys before that will likely have faded away. And of course, until comparatively recently the pitch of notes was pretty arbitrary - without pitch pipes or electronic tuners, I guess it'd be tuning up/down to someone's flute/pipe/whistle, whatever pitch that happened to be in. "D" or "G" or whatever then becomes just a choice of fingering shapes rather than pitch, same as with a capo on a guitar.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Stewart
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM

Sometimes the 'flat keys' - F, B flat, E flat (1, 2, and 3 flats respectively) sound good on the fiddle, particularly in slow moody tunes such as slow airs. And they are no harder to play than D and G IMO. The worst key to play on the fiddle IMO is E major where you can't play the open D string, but have to sharp it with the first finger. Why do singers who play guitar like to capo up two frets and play in D chording which then comes out in E?

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 02:44 PM

Yes, but it's not just simplicity. The fiddle sounds especially good in those keys.

I have heard that if you find a fiddle tune in B flat, you know it must be very good or fiddlers wouldn't play it.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:41 AM

I reckon the tunes were mostly written by people who wanted to make it easy for others - perhaps not particularly good musicians - to play them, so it was more accessible to playing in every little village/church hall/pub, so that folks could dance to them. After all, they were mostly written as dances, and, from watching 'Go west along the road' on the now-defunct Tara channel, local people were always playing and dancing to them. So, simplicity for accessibility is my opinion.
Thank God! It's hard enough playing in those keys, without E flat, z sharp minor etc.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 01:35 AM

Fiddles are made to play in D - the notes are the same distance apart on each string.

Not true. However, fiddles sound especially good when played in G, D, or A because of the resonances with the open strings (G, D, A, and E). Most of the famous violin concerti are written in D. In general, fiddlers prefer the keys of D and G. Scottish and Shetland fiddlers also like the key of A because you can play double stops (drones) with the A and E strings, and the music sounds so good and LOUD. This is very useful when fiddlers want to be heard even though bagpipes are being played nearby. Another reason is that it's cheaper to pay one fiddler to play double stops than to pay two fiddlers.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

WELL DONE!!!!!

Thank YOU - Mr. Stewart - you are worthy of your family's plaids.

It is a simple matter of majors and minors.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:00 PM

a parallel is the piano which plays naturally in C and as you change key you need to use the black notes - that distinction between black and white notes is peculiar to keyboard instruments and the like. It doesn't really apply to fiddles or indeed fretted instruments.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM

It's D and G in England too, but it seems to be A and D in Scotland.

Go back in time, however, and you find a much wider variety of key signatures used. Far enough back and you are more likely to find flats than sharps in the key signature. Playford's Dancing Master is a good example.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

That's because you have educated fingers!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

Fiddles are made to play in D

Nobody told mine that, fortunately. It plays in whatever key I tell it to.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

Make that "the first 61 songs".

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:07 PM

I tallied the keys of the first 60 songs in O'Neill's Music of Ireland.

G -      21
D       14
B-flat - 12
C         7
F         3
E-flat    2
A         2

I suspect that dance music might vary less. (Someone else can count if they want.) But when it comes to lyrical pieces, it isn't true that it only comes in G and D.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: scouse
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM

Most of the Guitarist play in DADGAG these days.So moving the Capo they can cover most Keys.........As Aye, Phil

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,Sooz sans cookie
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM

Fiddles are made to play in D - the notes are the same distance appart on each string. G involves changing only one note position ( C natural instead of C sharp) and C means changing two positions. I haven't explained that very well but a parallel is the piano which plays naturally in C and as you change key you need to use the black notes - one for G, two for D etc.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: MudGuard
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:01 PM

One reason: the uillean pipes are most able to play in these keys and their related minors- they are also easy keys on the fiddle and easiest keys for a "D" tin whistle- all of which have been part of Irish traditional music for a long time.

Hm - which is "actio" and which is "reactio"?

Is the widespread use of the "D" whistle the reason for many tunes in "D"
or
are the many tunes in "D" the reason for the widespread use of the "D" whistle?
(similar question for uillean pipes)

(I am absolutely no expert in this, just asking ...)

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Stewart
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 01:50 PM

Other scales are used, but they are based on the keys of D and G major. There are 8 scales that form the basis of most Irish dance music:

Scales based on Dmajor:
-----------------------
D major/D Ionian: D E F# G A B C# d
E Dorian:            E F# G A B C# d e
A Mixolydian:                  A B C# d e f# g a
B Natural minor/Aeolian:          B C# d e f# g a b

Scales based on Gmajor:
-----------------------
G major/G Ionian: G A B C D E F# g
A Dorian:            A B C D E F# g a
D Mixolydian:                D E F# g a b c d
E Natural minor/Aeolian:         E F# g a b c d e

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,sharon g
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM

One reason: the uillean pipes are most able to play in these keys and their related minors- they are also easy keys on the fiddle and easiest keys for a "D" tin whistle- all of which have been part of Irish traditional music for a long time.

Subject: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,tom
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:50 AM

Anyone know why Irish music is nearly always written in D and G ?