BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank

Subject: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr.
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

For years, media outlets have largely refused to report one of the most troubling aspects of the Mideast conflict ― Muslim intimidation and violence against Christians in Palestinian-controlled areas.

The latest shocking episode again made its way to very few news consumers: Late Saturday night (Sept. 3), hundreds of armed Palestinian Muslims crying 'Allahu Akbar' descended on the West Bank Christian city of Taibe. For the next few hours, the mob terrorized the community, setting sixteen homes and multiple businesses on fire, looting valuables from both, and destroying a statue of the Virgin Mary.

Said one eyewitness: 'It was like a war, they arrived in groups, and many of them were holding clubs.'

The mob's 'provocation'? A Muslim woman from their neighboring village had had a relationship with a Christian man from Taibe. The woman was poisoned to death by her own family in an 'honor killing', and soon after, the pogrom against Taibe commenced.

Report from the Jerusalem Post

I'm sure this incident would have made international headlines and generated the wrath of certain Mudcatters had Jews been responsible for this type of violence.

HISTORY OF MUSLIM ABUSE, CHRISTIAN FLIGHT

Incidents such as this, largely ignored by the western media, have been the leading cause of massive Christian flight from the Holy Land over the past few years.

The historical Christian towns of Bethlehem and Nazereth, once home to large Christian populations, have seen that population flee en masse due to Muslim intimidation and violence. As HonestReporting has documented:

Over 100 Palestinian terrorists took over the Church of the Nativity in 2002, using it as a fortress from which to fire upon Israeli troops, while holding nuns, priests and monks hostage, and looting or destroying virtually everything of value inside the building.

During 2000-2002, the PA's Tanzim militia chose the Christian town of Beit Jala as a base for unprovoked shooting at Jerusalem. The Tanzim were specifically positioned in or near Christian homes, hotels, churches, and the Greek Orthodox club, knowing fully well that these sites would be hard-hit by Israeli return fire.

In 1995, Bethlehem was 62% Christian, but today is less than 20% Christian. Before 1995, Bethlehem had a majority-Christian municipal council, but when the Palestinian Authority took over the town, Yassir Arafat replaced the municipal council with a predominately Muslim council, and Christian Arabs fled Bethlehem in droves after a radical Islamic wave began inciting against them.

On February 6, 2002, the Boston Globe reported "a rampage of Palestinian Muslims against Christian shops and churches in Ramallah... Police made no attempt to stop the mob, which besieged and damaged a widely respected youth center associated with the Boy Scouts of America after torching the Christian properties...'The truth is this is a problem between Christians and Muslims,' said one Christian businessman."

For more on Christian persecution under the PA, see this report from the JCPA, this article by Joseph Farah, and and this report from The Prism Group.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:58 AM

Also, see this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM

Do you have any harsh words for the massacre of hundreds of innocent Palestinian refugees by Christian militias in Sabra and Shatilla, or do you only care when it's Christians who are treated badly by Muslims?

Or is it, as I suspect, that you only care when there is an opportunity to point accusatory fingers at Palestinians and Muslims generally, otherwise you couldn't really give a shit because they're all Arabs anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:11 PM

Sabra and Chatila were part of a vicious cycle of Christian-Muslim revenge. Reprisal and counter-reprisal.
Violence against Christians is far more common, although also been recent riots in Mughar between Druze and Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr.
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:31 PM

Do you have any harsh words for the massacre of hundreds of innocent Palestinian refugees by Christian militias in Sabra and Shatilla, or do you only care when it's Christians who are treated badly by Muslims?

Or is it, as I suspect, that you only care when there is an opportunity to point accusatory fingers at Palestinians and Muslims generally, otherwise you couldn't really give a shit because they're all Arabs anyway?

You, CarolC, know nothing of me.

I was only four years old at the time of Sabra and Shatilla massacre. But yes, I condemn that act in no uncertain terms.

Your accusation about me is certainly a case of the pot calling the kettle black given your record of condemning the Israeli Jews and making excuses for the Palestinian Muslims.

It seems to me that we have to be aware of criminality and injustice on all sides. And yes, I am against the Israeli occupation and have demonstrated on behalf of Palestinians in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington.

I have also demonstrated against the corruption and anti-Peace activities of the Arafat regime and pary to God that his successors will be successful in making peace with Israel and establishing a democratic Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

I've never started a thread condemning anyone on either side. So my record is cleaner than yours. And if you look a little more closely at my posts, you'll see that I praise Israeli Jews far more often than I condemn any of them. Most of the information I get comes from Israeli Jewish human rights organizations. Or do you not consider Israeli Jews who work for human rights to be "real" Israeli Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

Or is it, as I suspect, that you only care when there is an opportunity to point accusatory fingers at Palestinians and Muslims generally, otherwise you couldn't really give a shit because they're all Arabs anyway? (Carol)

What else is that but stereotyping?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

CarolC,

You have never addressed ( from previous threads) why it was that Ramallah, the "capital" of Palestine, was a Muslim city, and the homes of so many Palestinians, when, according to the family I grew up living near ( across the street until we moved in 1967, then visited) that town was a mainly Christian one until 1948 when the Muslim Arabs drove out the Christian ones. I guess they don't have a right to THEIR homes, though.


"For years, media outlets have largely refused to report one of the most troubling aspects of the Mideast conflict ¯ Muslim intimidation and violence against Christians in Palestinian-controlled areas."

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:42 PM

Or is it, as I suspect, that you only care when there is an opportunity to point accusatory fingers at Palestinians and Muslims generally, otherwise you couldn't really give a shit because they're all Arabs anyway? (Carol)

What else is that but stereotyping?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

The opening post to this thread is the first ever post under the name of GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr. As of a few minutes ago, that post and the second one to this thread were the only posts in the entire posting history of this screen name. So his entire posting history consists of condemnations of Palestinians. His record speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM

I agree

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM

You have never addressed ( from previous threads) why it was that Ramallah, the "capital" of Palestine, was a Muslim city, and the homes of so many Palestinians, when, according to the family I grew up living near ( across the street until we moved in 1967, then visited) that town was a mainly Christian one until 1948 when the Muslim Arabs drove out the Christian ones. I guess they don't have a right to THEIR homes, though.

I don't recall ever having even seen this question, beardedbruce. Can you point me in the direction of where I was asked this question and did not answer it?

And you seem to be forgetting that the Christian Palestinians are also Palestinians. Ask them how they feel about having their homes buldozed and being chased off their land by the government of Israel.

But I will look into your question and see what I can find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

By the way, beardedbruce, why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM

As far as I am aware, all the Palestian homes that were destroyed were ones that were associated with terrorist incidents, bombmaking, and smuggling arms- which was done primarily my Palestinian Muslims. The Palestinian Christians have tried to keep neutral, but have still been attacked by Palestinian Muslims, and had their churches used by Palestinian Muslims against their ( Palestinian Christians) wishes as refuges and arms caches.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr.
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:59 PM

Rather than address the issues I've raised, CarolC has attacked me personally and made idiotic assumptions about my politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

well ted dibiase you shouldn't have started this thread if you can't take some knocks, should you now.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

As far as I am aware, all the Palestian homes that were destroyed were ones that were associated with terrorist incidents, bombmaking, and smuggling arms- which was done primarily my Palestinian Muslims.

This is totally wrong. Many homes have been destroyed to build roads for settlements, to build the settlements themselves, and also to build security fortifications for the settlements. And it's been both Christian as well as Muslim Palestinians who have been losing their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

You say so, it MUST be true. I know no-one on Mudcat has ever told a lie...

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:13 PM

Now, about those Christians being murdered and/or driven out by Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

How do you know I don't call it that, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

My last was in response to this from beardedbruce:

By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"?

And my response to this...

You say so, it MUST be true. I know no-one on Mudcat has ever told a lie...

is this...

Certainly not you, beardedbruce. But there is plenty of documentation, even from Israeli Jews, and even from the government of Israel, about
that. And I have already posted quite a lot of it in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

EXACTLY


"By the way, beardedbruce, why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? "

How do YOU know I DON'T call it that?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM

I argree with CarolC, and I'm a born again Christian

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

Oh dear you've got Carol going on her favourite subject now, I shall not fan the flames but would like to point out that the word 'pogrom' is a Russian word meaning riot, and it was applied to a series of attacks by Russian civilians on Jewish people in the mid 19th century, which the authorities refused to do any thing to stop. Since that time it has come to mean almost solely attacks against Jews.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Giok,

Stop annoying CarolC with the facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

Well, do you call it "Pogroms" when the government of Israel does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Pogrom is a very loaded word. People should be very careful how they use it, John 'Giok' MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:39 PM

...and I would like to point out the fact that it was the person who started this thread who used it in reference to people who are not Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

When people are cleared from an area because of their RELIGION, that is a pogrom.



Your statement:"By the way, beardedbruce, why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? "

I have never commented one way or the other. You seem to ask why I have not so stated.

My statement:"By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"? "

I point out you have not to my knowledge ever stated this point- NOT that you do not do so, but that I have never observed it, as you have never observed me calling the removal of Christian Palestinians by the Israeli government ANYTHING. Neither is to the point of this thread.


Now, about those Christians being murdered and/or driven out by Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

I need to spend some time reading the links and doing some research of my own before I feel comfortable commenting on it. I am, at this time, a bit more concerned with the hurricane situation just a few miles down the road from where I live, but I'll get to it when I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Levi9909
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:29 PM

I just flicked through the messages when I saw the words "Pogrom" "Christian" "Muslim" and "Palestinian". Just some quick notes here. If similar points have already been made then apologies.

There were no Christians ethnically cleansed by Muslims in Palestine in 1948. Around 800,000 Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) were ethnically cleansed from Palestine by zionist forces (from May 1948 the State of Israel) from Nov 1947 to mid 1949. During the ethnic cleansing of Arabs the zionists herded the men of two Christian villages into their churches and burned them down. The reason the Christian population has declined relative to Muslims is because Christians can afford to move away, have better international connections and their birth rate is lower.   The PLO has many Christian activists and their man in London for many years was a Christian - Afif Safieh. I know of one Palestinian Christian zionist who is feted wherever he goes (in the west that is). Where are the rest speaking out against Muslims?

Honestreporting.com is a zionist organisation. You might just as well ask Ariel Sharon is he's a war criminal and then believe him when he says no. He has been denounced as a war criminal by a former Israeli Prime Minister (Moshe Sharett)and the Israeli Supreme Court and he lost a libel action against the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz when they called him a war criminal.

Running with reports from the Jerusalem Post is also risky for truth seekers. It is just about the most right wing newspaper in Israel and used to be owned by the owners of the Telegraph here (maybe it still is).

Shatila and Sabra were not simply the culmination of an escalation between Palestinians and Lebanese Phalangists. The Israeli army let the Phalangists into the camps and lit up the sky with flares so that they could see what they were doing while they massacred the refugees. No-one knows for sure how many died. Estimates vary from 900 to 2,000. I do know from the Jewish Chronicle that 9 Jewish women were killed. They fled Palestine in 1948 with their Arab husbands. Shatila and Sabra is by no means the worst of Israel's crimes. In fact to highlight individual crimes misses the point that Israel is a colonial settler state based on segregationist laws and ethnic cleansing. Having that structure in the 21st century makes Israel unique as no other state exists on the same racist basis that Israel does.

I like to write about Israel on my blog and I welcome comments that are not deliberate lies, racism, insults or time wasting.

Shalom

Mark Elf
Jews sans frontieres

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:07 AM

I mean how would you lot like it if a another set of people came into your country and started to tell you what to do, somehow I don't think that you would like it, for example there was a Palestinian family who were living on the west bank when the israeli army just came in a took over their house, and then the army told the people that they could on get into their house with the Armies permission, if they didn't say who they were they were shot, and then one day the son of the family came to his house and was shot by the army because he didn't ask for permission to go into his own house, the man and woman have had mortar shells blasted through their bedroom walls, and the downstairs is full of bullet holes, and they also have tanks coming in through their back garden.

But if you want to support the jews then that's up to you.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:08 AM

PS

If I have upset anyone then I'm sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:12 AM

So we've all to be friendly with the jews, and if any says different then they are evil or racist or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:16 AM

I think I'll just leave the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM

I was just thinking there, it's the extreamists on both sides in Israel that is keeping this thing going, If we got rid of these 'people' then maybe we would have peace in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

Levy 9909, I'm sure Carol has you pigeonholed already, for your entire posting history consists of condemnations of Israelis. This record speaks for itself.

why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? (Carol)

pogrom: an act of organized cruelty or killing which is done to a large group of people because of their race or religion.

I recommend becoming much more proficient in the English language before making these kinds of criticisms. (Carol)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

The Christian Palestinians are being removed from their land because of their religion, Wolfgang. They are being removed from their land because they are not Jewish. I stand by my previous comment about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM

You're twisting the words to make your preconceptions fit, Carol.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:10 AM

if you're Christian in Israel, you're not very welcome. The Chistians that live there and The Palestinians Christians and Jewish Christians are thrown out of their family and they have to worship in secret in Israel because of their faith, If you believe in God and you trust him as your savoiour then you're not made welcome.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:47 AM

Tam,

I am sure the multiple Orthodox (christian) groups in Israel will find your comment news.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

And that's exactly what you are doing to me, Wolfgang, and have been for years.

Anyway, "pogrom" is not an English word. It's Yiddish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:25 PM

I've told you before Carol but it doesn't seem to suit your prejudices, POGROM is a Russian word.
G..

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Nice snipe, John 'Giok' MacKenzie.

However I did look the word up in the Websters online dictionary before I posted that and this is what it says...

Main Entry: 1po�grom
Pronunciation: 'pO-gr&m, 'p�-; pO-'gr�m, p&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Yiddish, from Russian, literally, devastation

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pogrom&x=7&y=15

But your own prejudices make you want to automatically assume the worst about me instead of taking time to find out the truth.

Or perhaps you don't regard Yiddish as a real language and therefore only consider the Russian roots of the word to have any linguistic legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

Just because nobody is actually getting at you doesn't mean you can't feel paranoid if you really want to!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:44 PM

Look in the mirror, Mr. MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Ah Carol you caught me out there, who told you I cast no reflection.
Whoo hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Giokula

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:00 PM

Does it really matter who is doing what to who to determine if the act is wrong? If it's wrong, it's wrong, and if someone did the same thing to them in the past, it's still wrong.

I think we should rename this thread to, "Hey, I can be more sarcastic than you can..."

sheesh...

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:02 AM

from the link to the Encyclopedia Britannica on Carol's link:

Mob attack, condoned by authorities, against persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. (definition of pogrom)

It fits well the example in the first post here but I can't make it fit the removal of Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel. Not each wrong is a pogrom.

Why argue about the etymology of 'pogrom' when there is nothing to disagree? It is well know that it originates from Russian and then via Yiddish traveled to most European languages. Of course, it is in Wikipedia's list of English words of Russian origin and not in Wikipedia's list of English words of Yiddish origin.

Wolfgang