Folklore: Value of musical instruments

Subject: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:55 AM

Just noticed a mandolin for sale in the Mandolin Cafe classifieds,

1923 Gibson F5, I kid you not, one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, this is almost one hundred thousand UK pounds.

Can any instrument be worth this ? would you dare take it to a session ? would you even dare to play it ?

eric

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:03 AM

Some concert violinists have paid millions for real Strads and play them, but wow, I'd want a guard for it and that seems ridiculous!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: C-flat
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:04 AM

Can it be worth it?
As an instrument, obviously not, but as a collectable piece of history no doubt it will be bought, wrapped up and put away until its value has doubled, then sold on again.
The shame of it is that it probably will never be heard again.

By contrast, I've got an electro-acoustic Mandolin selling on e-bay with the bidding standing at £23 with a day to go!!!
It isn't a 1923 Gibson F5, before you ask!

C-flat(broke)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:22 AM

I have a tenor banjo and a mandolin that I inherited from my dad. He acquired them sometime in the 1930's when he was at sea, crossing the Atlantic on passenger liners.

I've been busking with the banjo and play the mandolin regularly at sessions. I don't know what their monetary value is but to me they're priceless.

Whatever their value, it's important to me that they are used to make music. Without that, they would be just so much wood and metal.

DC

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:37 AM

My own opinion is that a musical instrument not played is a waste of space.

eric

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

i've got a neapolitan bowl back mando that could be anywhere between
60 to over a 100 yrs old
[well customised with state of the art 1940's compensated bridge and nut.. theres a technicians proud signature stamp inside ]

the old fella owner of the 'junk' shop who was selling it..
he knew he could try to get a lot more for it..
but at that time he was happy to sell it to me for the equivalent of my one weeks unemployment benefit.
cos he knew i'd love it and play it..

its got excellent action and intonation..

[but just a bit over emphasised on the bass G strings cos of the bigg bowl body..]

f*ck knows what its worth.. i dont care..
thats the wifes concerm if i snuff it before she does..

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:04 AM

I understand what you mean about not being interested in the value of the instruments, but I believe you should be for insurance purposes. If they get stolen you would be able to get a replacement of some description, I know not the same as the original but it would help.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GLoux
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:38 AM

Here's an interesting article on Bill Monroe's 1923 Gibson F5 Mandolin which was purchased and given to the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 01:42 PM

At a friend's house I sometimes play a big, pretty Martin guitar... and I'm usually afraid of scratching or somehow damaging it... can't imagine how I'd feel playing something worth tens of thousands of dollars.... My favorite guitar is my beat-up Harmony (circa 1950s) that I got for $50.00

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

I caught part of an interview with Neil young on NPR this morning. He was talking about his guitar "Hank" which once belonged to Hank Williams. He said something to the effect that some musicians would keep such a valuable and historically significant instrument under lock and key, but he just treats it like a normal guitar, playing it regularly, letting other people play it and, yes, taking it on the road. Instruments were meant to be played, not looked at.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM

To speak to the original question, obviously this is a Lloyd Loar signed F-5 (as was Monroe's instrument). There were about 230 of them made from 1921 to 1923. Loar was an acoustical engineer who closely supervised the production of the F-5's during his tenure at Gibson, and those 230 F-5's are the Holy Grail of bluegrass mandolins. I started a thread on them once. It is at
"http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=33904#349879">Lloyd Loar F5 Mandolins
but the posts are out of order--it started with my post May 3 /01 at 12:28 p.m.

Many serious working musicians own Lloyd Loars and they are of course equally sought by collectors. They do not come up for sale often, so there you go. No doubt Gibson has made tens of thousands of F-5's over the past 80 years, but the ones associated with Loar are the only ones that go for six figures. An extremely fine F-5 that is NOT from the Loar era, but may have other historical interest, might fetch $20,000 US.

W-O

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:14 PM

In 1960, a friend of mine, one of the members of the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, took a trip to Spain and came back with an outrageously good flamenco guitar that he'd ordered some months ahead of time and picked up while he was there. He paid the equivalent of $100 American for it. Between the obvious quality of the guitar and the ridiculously low price, it blew me away. [There was a reason for the low price, but that's another story and it would be a little complicated to tell here.] With my friend's help, I order one for myself. The price had gone up. It was now the equivalent of $116.66 (sixes ad infinitum). I waited for about a year for it, but when it came and got properly played in, it turned out to be one of the finest guitars I've ever played—or seen. A few years later, I learned that Carlos Montoya and several other flamenco guitarists were now playing guitars made by this luthier. His name was Arcangel Fernandez.

Several people have wanted to buy it from me, offering me some fairly fancy money, but no way. A few years ago, I saw a National Geographic special on Spain. At one point in the program, they visited a guitar-maker's shop in Madrid. Marvelous coincidence! The maker turned out to be Arcangel Fernandez! It seems that he is considered to one of the finest luthiers in Spain, and his flamenco guitars are especially sought after. He has ten years worth of back-orders, and is taking no new orders. Wow!

So for kicks, I ran a check on the internet and found that there were a very few "Arcangels" for sale, and the few that are are being handled, not by places like Elderly Instruments or Musician's Friend, but by musical instrument brokers—the kind of outfits that handle top quality concert instruments—like million dollar violins. On the site of a broker who deals only with classic and flamenco guitars (HERE), I found a 1961 Arcangel Fernandez flamenco for sale. It looked exactly like mine. In every detail. Like THIS. Exactly! The headstock and the colorful mosaic ROSETTE are identical to mine. Can't tell much from the BACK. Then, looking at the LABEL proved especially fascinating, because it, too, is the same, except that mine is No. 135.

Between the price of the guitar itself (complete with case), plus 35% duty, and air freight from Madrid, I paid about $175.00 for mine. The last I checked, they were asking $18,000 for this one. And somebody bought it.

Is it really worth that much? Well, it's a joy to play. The action is light and fast, it's responsive, it's loud, and it's resonant enough so if you play it in a large auditorium, it can be heard clearly in the back row without amplification. It barks if I play flamenco on it (the guitar has a definite Spanish accent, but I ain't no Sabicas, believe me!), it's rich enough so classic pieces sound good on it, and unless you're hell-bent on steel strings, it's great for song accompaniment. I've used it a lot for concerts and such.

The problem with having an instrument like this is that I'm afraid to take it out of the house!

No, it's not for sale.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:28 PM

Let's try that blue clickie again.

Lloyd Loar F5 Mandolins

Don, that was a pretty good buy...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 02:25 AM

Pretty much all of the 'Strads', and that is not only violins, and Amatis, etc ARE played regularly by good musicians.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 02:50 AM

Interesting to mote, earler this year a Stradivarius violin was bought by some musical society in England for several million pounds, [ a young lady played it on the TV and it sounded fine ] two opinions given at the time were-

I. Money man, " of course it must never be played "

2. Musician, " it must be played regularly to keep it in good condition "

I bought a fifty year old Gibson A earlier this year, first thing I did was drop it on the hearth and gouge a large chunk out of it, it still sounds the same though, shit happens, so what.

eric

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:15 AM

The price of Loars has nothing at all to do with musical value and everything to do with collectability. They were well made and usually sound great in just about anyone's hands, but the musical value is more in line with several other top end builder's work. In a way, we are lucky the Loars have been recognized, copied, and preserved for history. But musically their value is in being played and recorded rather than collected and inflated.

As luck would have it, the builder of a couple of my guitars has become better known and his instruments more desirable since he built for me. At the time of purchase I paid the going rate, but today (ten years later) those prices would be a steal. This adds to the insurance and replacement issues I suppose, but that's the cost of doing business. Those instruments keep getting dinged and worn with honest to goodness folkie attitude and exposure. I don't know what kind of shape they'll be in when my kids inherit them, and I don't care. For now, they are tools of my trade, with all the weathering that I get myself. I do look after them, but I don't value them less if they get worn.

If someone ever suggests that I should have preserved them as new, it would be to denigrate their use and my requirement of them. "If I had a hammer" I'd value more what the hammer can do than what condition it is in.

Like my hammer, they're not for sale.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM

Just because somebody is asking $180,000 for the instrument doesn't mean it is worth it.

I collect certain old dishes. Many times I've seen them for sale at prices set from an antique price guide, prices which are far too high. The dishes sit and sit, then the dealer goes out of business. Were the dishes worth it? No.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: PennyBlack
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:52 PM

It's worth nowt till someone buys it!

PB

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:57 AM

The owner of the local vintage instrument shop invited me in last year to play his Loyd Loar F-5. He said that he had purchased it for $10,500, and his wife thought that he was crazy. At the the time the market for those instruments was about 95 grand, and he told me that the mandolin was worth more than his house! At the time the market value was $95,000, or at least that's what was being asked. He also let me play a Gilchrist from Australia, which I thought was the equal of the Loyd Loar. You could but one of those for around 14 thousand(but there's a 2 year wait.
The problem is the collectors. There was a book on Martin that came out about 6 years ago. Inside was a picture of a Japanese country singer who collects pre-war instruments. The book noted that he had 14(?)pre-war D-45's! Now when I was selling instruments for the Folklore Center in NYC 30 years ago, you could have bought one of those for around five thousand, which was a good chunk of change. You could have knocked me out my socks when I looked around ten years ago to find that they were now worth over a hundred grand. Granted there were only 91 D-45's made before WWII. but still, even factoring in for inflation....

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

I have a Framus Nashville guitar, which I bought, second hand, in 1978, for £80.

Apparently it is now quite rare, and I was offered £1500 for it recently.

Immaterial! I wouldn't sell if the offer had been £15000. The point is that I bought it because it suited me, and if, God forbid, I get bladdered and fall on it, that's the luck of the draw.

Not playing it would be inconceivable to me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GUEST,disgruntled old guitar PLAYER
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 11:56 AM

overpriced rare 'collectors' instruments can ultimately be worth f*ck all
if the wealthy collector lives and stores his private collection
in an earthquake or hurricane zone..


it sickens me not just to see so many fabulous old instruments being
greedily withdrawn from public view and performance..

but to see so many being shipped out to Japan and the US..

might as well just throw 'em down a volcano and be done with it
for all the music these instruments are ever likely to be used to make again..

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 12:11 PM

I got a lesson in relative value during the five years or so I was desultorily shopping for a steel-strung guitar. Whenever I went into a music shop, I would play all the guitars, even the really expensive ones. I disliked them all, even the fancy ones that cost more than my car; they were too snarly, too stiff, too big in all the wrong places. I found some so un-fun to play that I wouldn't have accepted them as a gift.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

In addition to the Fernandez flamenco I described above, I have a Japanese-made classic guitar with a "Guitarra Artesana" label, imported by José Oribé and sold by him with a small label pasted by the Guitarra Artesana label that says "Inspected and approved," and he signs his name). It looks exactly like a José Ramirez concert model (Andrés Segovia played one after he retired his Hauser, and Liona Boyd uses one)—rosewood back and sides, cedar soundboard, and the headstock and rosette look exactly like those of a Ramirez. I'm not sure how much the José Ramirez concert models sell for these days (I don't think these are the models you can buy through Elderly Instruments or Musician's Friend, you probably have to get them straight from Madrid), but I'm sure it's puh-lenty!   $6,000+ and up.

It's a nice instrument to play, and it sounds pretty darned good. After using it in performance, I've had people ask me what it is. But the kick was once when I played for the Seattle Classic Guitar Society. These are some pretty knowledgeable people when it comes to guitars and a couple of them own Ramirez guitars. Between its appearance and its full, warm sound, they assumed that it was a Ramirez. As I say, it sounds pretty darned good.

I bought it from The Rosewood Guitar in Seattle. They sell top quality concert instruments, but they also have a carefully selected line of "student" guitars, and this was one of them. I paid $350.00 for it, plus the case.

I still do a little teaching, and one of my students recently acquired an Alvarez AC60S classic. Red cedar soundboard and mahogany back and sides. Because of the design of the headstock and rosette, but with the exception of the mahogany instead of rosewood, it, too, is a dead ringer for a Ramirez. I ordered it for her from Music 123, and she paid something like $269.00 for it. I was surprised when it arrived and I unpacked it from its cocoon of bubble-wrap and styrofoam, then tuned it up. It was a far better instrument than I expected. Darn nice guitar. Exceptional considering how little it cost.

So—price is not always an indication of how good an instrument is.

By the way, I remember attending a Seattle Classic Guitar Society meeting years ago when some guitar collector (not a member of the Society) brought several of the top-quality guitars from his collection and was showing them off. The fellow I was sitting next to mumbled in my ear, "He has all those fine guitars! He buys them as an investment. He picks around a little, he doesn't actually play. Most of the time, they just sit around in a closet. I'm a law-abiding guy, but I find myself seriously thinking about burglary. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Value of musical instruments
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 06:02 PM

Slight thread creep--I have a rather cool CD by a guy named Dean Shostak call "Davy Crockett's Fiddle." It features tunes of Davy's time period, played on a fiddle that purports to have been his, and very well may have been. The artist paid to have it restored to playing condition so he could make the album. Sounds okay to me; nothing special about it except the history, but I like the album.