BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes

Subject: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:42 PM

I looked for a thread to post this in and didn't find an obvious one. Also I got it in an email and haven't found a link. So here it is:

*How US presidents have dealt with hurricanes in the past:

*President: Richard M. Nixon
*Danger: Category 5
Hurricane: Camille (August 1969), Mississippi, Louisiana
Area: About the same area as that affected by Katrina
Response: Nixon prepared the National Guard in advance, ordering rescue ships from Tampa, FL and Houston, TX to stand waiting along with over a thousand regular military, 24+ helicopters to assist
the Coast Guard and National Guard about as soon as the hurricane passed.

*President: George H. W. Bush (Bush I)*
Danger: Category 5
Hurricane Andrew (August 1992)
Area: Florida
Response: In the middle of a re-election campaign,Bush ceased campaigning the day before the hurricane, went to Washington, and assembled one of the largest military forces ever mustered on U.S. soil. Seven thousand National Guard and 22,000 regular military
were sent in with the necessary equipment shortly after the hurricane passed through.

*President: Bill Clinton*
Danger: Category 3
Hurricane Floyd (September 1999)
Area: Virginia, North and South Carolina
Response: Meeting with China's president Jiang in New Zealand, Clinton immediately declared the hurricane-affected areas as federal disasters, allowing the military and National Guard to move in
and help. Clinton flew home immediately, one

*President: George W. Bush (Bush II)*
Danger: Category 5
Hurricane Katrina (August 2005)
Area: Gulf Coast
Response: National Guard troops are down about 8,000 members because they are in Iraq with much of the necessary rescue equipment needed. Bush was on vacation, riding his bike for two hours the day before the hurricane lands. On the day Katrina landed, Bush attended a birthday party for John McCain.

The levees began to crack during that day. As emergency 1.5-ton sandbags were ready to be placed to steady the levee and absorb water, there were insufficient numbers of helicopters and pilots to set them before the levees break.

While Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans, pleaded for federal-level assistance and got none, Bush went to San Diego to play guitar
with a country singer and ended his vacation early -- but not until the next day, because he had tickets to a San Diego Padres game...

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 08:00 PM

And, there's LBJ. Click Here for transcripts and audio of his response in 1964.

And, audio's of his remarks on the one in 1965 which hit NO: clickety

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 08:07 PM

Ebbie,

No president sends military forces to a state without being asked by the governor of the state. It is the basis of federalism. I will agree that President Bush showed poor PR by not being more visable in the New Orleans tragedy. I also believe that the Mayor of New Orleans and the GOvernor showed very poor leadership skills in their dealing with the situation. WOuld you agree?

Case in point, look at the most recent hurricaine that has hit today. It has passed over much of Texas and the big problem is that people now want to return to their homes. THe problem is that in New Orleans there was a terrible flood. Related to the hurricaine. but a flood nontheless. The levees broke.

In our form of government, it falls on the people of an area to deal with their own issues. If there is a problem in California with power, it is the issue for Californians to take care of acquiring more power, making more porer ect to deal with California brown-outs. If a forest fire hits in Utah, it is by and large a Utah issue. Federal government is there for support, ancillary help, etc.

Do people in ALaska feel that their tax dollars should be spent building levees in New Orleans? I imagine they are more interested in dealing with ALaska issues and they probably feel that if people live in New Orleans they should be basically in charge of dealing with their own issues. This is the way I understand my government and the separation of states powers as opposed to what the federal government is responsible for.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:13 PM

Yo, JimmyT,

Where did you get ther information that Mississippi and Lousiana's governemnt's didn't ask Bush fir help??? This seemas to contradict what officials in both states have said...

Maybe you have sources that over-ride the statements of officials in those states???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:14 PM

Come on---a bridge to nowhere in Alaska is just an example of Pork (anyone know where the expression came from).


Glad that others mentioned other responses by other Presidents to Hurricanes (check that spelling gang---Hurricanes---or perhaps Hufficanes if you do typos). LBJ---had to be urged, but moved.

I still find it hard to fathom how a Pres. (W the 2d) could fly to New Orleans---and also have another plane with generators and lights (that ruined a runway that an airport wants to be reimbursed for) so that he could have one more photo op to show his presence. People have no food, power, light, etc; and he lights up the area to walk with a nice backdrop (St Louis Cathedral---shades of the Carrier sign).   What a waste.   Like the reporters that can say it is windy and raining and are made to stand out there in slickers to tell---guess what---it is windy and raining. What a scoop.

Command starts in the Oval Office---the rest is show biz.

In truth we are a nation that , fortunately, thanks to the founding fathers, have a viable and, hopefully, enforcable set of laws so that we can say farewell to W and hope for better soon. People made their choice---perhaps the people (which is us) will realize the error and make ammends after this term is over for the people who just want to reward politcal cronies and lead us into quagmires while ignoring our internal needs for a just society, a good economy, and an understanding of what truly ails the nation.

Or as W says---Let us Pray. A lot of good that has done. Perhaps if we stop that he will dissappear and so will his cronies, appointed zealots, and failed policies created by past tense politicos brought in to help out a failed business person who happened to be scion to a fairly well thought of dynasty.

Though one must fault Mom for her insensitvie comments---but we all should be allowed one gaffe.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:14 PM

Well, Jimmyt, your understanding of your government is lacking in some respects.


No president sends military forces to a state without being asked by the governor of the state? Do you suppose it was Orval Faubus, the governor of Arkansas, who ordered federal troops into Little Rock to help integrate the schools there? No it wasn't. He used the Arkansas National Guard to stop integration but Eisenhower federalized them and ordered them to stand down. He then sent the 101st Airborne in to enforce integration laws. We doubt that old Orval asked the president for the 101st Airborne.


Do people in Alaska feel that their tax dollars should be spent building levees in New Orleans? Well, the levees in question are on a canal connecting Lake Ponchetrain and the Mississippi River. They were built and maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. It was Bush who cut the budget for improving these levees for three years running which directly resulted in the flooding of New Orleans.

On the other hand, we do agree with you that the Mayor of New Orleans either did not have an adequate evacuation plan or he failed to execute it. In either case, he showed poor leadership and should be replaced.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:20 PM

Intersting point---"...he federalized them". So---why coud that not have been done this time? My comments about W and leadership stand---where there is a will there is a way---FDR/HST/JFK---and yes---a Republican---Lincoln knew that. Granted--he was a Republican from a different era---though I will admit RMN did open China---that is ahout it for him.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM

I am absolutely not supporting W in his mismanagement of this situation at all. I am simply saying that I believe that this is being used as political fodder and if that is the case thene the GOvernor and mayor should be as liable.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:49 PM

Second request here, Jimmyt:

Where did you scoop the story that the Governors of both Luisiana and Mississippi did not request fedearl help???

This is not what they have said... This is not what has been widelt reported...

If you know something that th rest of the world doesn't, I think you need to share your sources...

Hey, I was in Mississppi when Katrina hit and was a a friends house up in Thaxton... My firned listnes to nuthin' but Fox news DOn't aask me why, but he's my friend...) and Fox was reporting thjat both states were asking for federal assistence...

Hey, when you are a Governor in the iddle of a hurricne and you ask the federal governement, ain't like yer tellin' 'um who an dwh not to send... Just send help, gol dangit...

So if you are hearing that neither state asked specifically for the Ntaional Gurad, what you are hearing is revisionist's trying to rewrite what just went down... Hey, these days there are more revsionists that you can count because of the daily countless failures by Bush and his unqualified appointees but that don't make anyone of them correct...

Hey, ain't like we all jsu went thru this together??? Next thing ya; know, one of these bold revisionists will just come up and say that Katrina never really happened... Maybe we're confusded with some movie????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:09 PM

Bobert, ol' buddy, JimmyT didn't say the governors of Miss. & La. didn't ask for help. He said: No president sends military forces to a state without being asked by the governor of the state.

He's right. Every other form of assistance that the feds could provide might be covered under a blanket "Send us everything you've got!" type request, but federal troops have to be requested specifically. It's that Posse Commitatus thing, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM

I agree - as it appears that most Alaskans do- that the Gravina Island bridge project seems dubious. However, when "they" scoff that the island has fewer than 50 residents, they kind of miss the point. It is just across the way from Ketchikan; on Gravina Island is the Ketchikan Airport. Perhaps there are fewer than 10 flights a day - I don't know - but in Southeast Alaska that's where, most of the time, you're going to land when you head south or come north. (There are some non-stop flights from Seattle to Juneau but only at specific times.)

When "they" sneer that Ketchikan has only 14,000 plus people, they forget that Alaska's population is not the same as in other states. For instance, Juneau, the capital city, has only 30,000 people- but it is the third largest city in Alaska!

The touted ferry ride costs $12.00 per person one way. How would you like to live where you had to pay that to cross a stretch of water that is end to end about two rock tosses across? Many residents of Ketchikan, I'm told, try to get a friend or relative to row over to pick them up when they return home rather than fork it over.

That said, our Governor is rated the #2 least popular governor in the US; his judgment has not been stellar. He is the one who has been saying for a long time that Ketchikan/Gravina Island has to have a bridge. Incidentally he grew up there. Don Young is just the man who has the clout in Congress.

I think 'pork' is embarrassing. I've never understood how anyone can rail against pork- and then admire their congressmen for bringing home the largesse. Is it: "We need the money- You are greedy"?

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:19 PM

The National Guard was federalized at the time of Katrina. They were, however, federalized and serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Remember Afghanistan?) The President can't use the National Guard unless they are federalized -- if they are not, they are under State control.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:20 PM

Don't know nuthin 'bout no "Posse Communistists", Beezer, but to tyr get Bush a pass on his enept handlin' of Katrina because "specific" requests, we're made is like blamin' an emergeny room doctor for not stoppin' the bleedin' from the gunmshot wound 'cause the diein' victim never woke up to sign in properly...

GHad Bush been less intersted in going off to California to do some politcin' fir his Medicare proposals and more intersted in what was gong down in the coastal region, we wouldn't even be discussin' the fine lines here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:55 PM

Just a note, I think my referenced links above were both for the same year, not one after another. Sorry for the mistake.

Somewhere there is a comparison of LBJ's response and the non-response of dumbya. I can't find where I posted it, at the moment. Anyway, I thought it was a different hurricane than one in my links. What I remember is it said...OOPS, just found it in my email. Here ya go:

Sept. 19, 2005 issue - In September 1965, a massive hurricane hit New Orleans. By the next day the president—a Texan in a time of war—was in the city, visiting a shelter. With no electricity in the darkness there, Lyndon Baines Johnson held a flashlight to his face and proclaimed, "This is the president of the United States and I'm here to help you!" Almost precisely 40 years later, when another horrific hurricane hit the city, the president was, again, a Texan in wartime. But rather than hurry to New Orleans from his Texas ranch, George W. Bush decided, three days after Katrina hit, to fly back to Washington first. Photographers rarely are allowed into the forward cabin of Air Force One, but consigliere Karl Rove and other aides summoned them so they could snap pictures of the Boss gazing out the window as the plane flew over the devastation. Republican strategists privately call the resulting image—Bush as tourist, seemingly powerless as he peered down at the chaos—perhaps among the most damaging of his presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:05 PM

It has been reported that Bush's own staff had to prepare a video for him to watch of the effects of Katrina for Bush to even half get it????

Hey, I weren't no Lyndon B. Johnson fan but he, at least, got it...

Maybe too many prezels (wink, wink) in drunk frat boy's diet these days???

Maybe not enuff...

Alcoholism is kinda tricky...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:30 AM

The Posse Comitatus Act was passed during the reconstruction era and it makes no mention of a state having to make a request for federal troops. What it does say is that federal troops cannot legally be used for civilian law enforcement. Federal troops can provide equipmnt and supplies, transportation, technical assistance, training and other functions but they cannot be used for law enforcement.

There are, however, exceptions and congress has recognized the protection of civil rights where local authorities do not or cannot protect them as a valid exception.

So, Bee-Dubya-Ell, the Posse Comitatus Act does not appear to apply in this case. Bush could have and should have brought federal troops in before Katrina came ashore instead of waiting a week to do it.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: kendall
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 02:26 PM

Too many pretzels? More like too few.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:08 AM

The first federal response to a hurricaine came under Calvin Coolidge's watch.

He appointed a guy named Hoover (who eventually became President) to organize federal relief efforts. Hoover did a masterful job in getting help to the area as rapidly as 24 - 48 hours using troop strengths that had been developed as a result of WW1.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

I don't know what is funnier, that you guys believe this nonsense or that you guys keep bringing up arguements that were proven wrong weeks ago. Either there is a lot of gulliblity, inability to learn or some people just have an ax to grind.

FYI, I got an e-mail, I don't have a website, that says that Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) used microwaves to direct the hurricanes. Also, it is a fact that had we accepted Cubas help we would have had zero deaths.

For the slower of mind, the above was a joke!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

Chicago Mayor Michael Bilandic's response to 3 feet of snow was so inept that he was out of office beofre he had time to turn around.

Nuff said!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:19 AM

Did you know you can get trichynosis from eating rare lamb?

symptoms include irratibility, inabilty to think clearly and and overall soreness.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM

Donuel,

Since you attack the person, you are conceding the truth of what is presented. Are you sure you want to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: jimmyt
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:47 PM

Lamb does not host the Trichina nemotode Most likely Pig, Walrus, Bear, Horse (rarely) and dog and wild felines

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:52 PM

Meaning what, Bearded Bruce? That Donuel is wrong about Herbert Hoover? I am confused--Donuel has occasionally been off the mark about some things, but never Herbert Hoover--

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

Just that Donuel must be thought to agree with the conclusions presented by rarelamb, since he argues ad hominim...

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

I'll say Donuel is wrong...again! There was no immediate federal response in 1927. The feds were NOT first responders.

No immediate federal response

In particular :

"Despite the fact that the 1927 flood left 1 percent of the U.S. population homeless, had an estimated death toll in the thousands, and burdened the Red Cross with nearly 700,000 refugees to feed, there was great reluctance on the part of Southern leaders to initiate federal action. When President Calvin Coolidge refused to call Congress into session to respond to the flood, they backed him."

The feds did help and it did set a precedent for reconstruction, but it was not for the feds to be first responders.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

So I guess that means rarelamb must be thought to agree with the conclusions presented by all of the other posters in this thread, since his entire 26 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM post is an ad hominem attack on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 02:23 PM

Ouch Carol :)

I wouldn't say the whole post. How about the second paragraph? Satire? It's basis is just as valid (in fact the same!), as the original post.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Hrothgar
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 06:37 AM

Does the fact that the local and stste authorities were incompetent excuse Bush's incompetence?

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: jimmyt
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:58 AM

No, Hrothgar. Not at all, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:48 AM

I guess that depends on what you mean by "Bush's incompetence". I still am not sure what he supposedly did wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: jimmyt
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 11:21 AM

Rarelamb, I feel that he could have and should have been more visable from the onset of the tragedy. I think it was poorly advised for him to not be more visable. It reminds me of his father's way of treating the economic news of a recession in his last year of his presidency. As I remember, he was on vacation and tried to down play the financial news rather than admit there were some pressing issues. He went from having the highest rating of a president to the losing the election in a few short months. Do I think he could have effected any immediate change to the economic issues in a few days or weeks or even months? No. In fact I don't think the president has much to do with the economy at all. But the perception was wrong as it was in the aftermath of this Hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:05 PM

I agree with you on that point. W has been getting clobbered with these hurricanes in the polls. Maybe he will be lucky, and some of mike browns testimony will get some air time.

But I can't say i've been very happy with him. His farm subsidies are inexcusable and his drug benefit makes one wonder if he has another texans blood in him ...

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Mike Brown's testimony makes Bush look bad, because it's so obvious that Brown is lying. Even some Republicans aren't buying his BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:18 AM

I was over in the US when Katrina struck. Watching the news and from how people were explaining things it would appear that FEMA was set up to liaise with state and local authorities.

There was a plan in force and a system to put it into effect - however both plan and system had one major defect - it relied on FEMA having something in place to liaise with - in the immediate aftermath of Katrina there wasn't.

Had your President immediately dropped everything and dashed to the scene, there would be roughly the same number of posts damning him for the 'photo-op' as there have been complaining about his inaction.

Those who have never experienced the effect of hurricanes should take time out and just think about the difficulties and what it takes to overcome them. You would then be able to assess what could have been done as opposed to an uninformed what should have been done.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

Here is a link to the transcript.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/27/national/nationalspecial/27text-brown.html?pagewanted=all

I've just started reading it and I guess I understand why the dems decided not to join the committee; they would have gotten clobbered by Brown.

He is just laying it into everyone. I say good for him. People (media and democrats in particular) treated him pretty badly after Katrina.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:06 PM

Only problem is... people in Mississippi can see right through Brown's lies because they know that Nagin and Blanco are not responsible for the piss-poor performance of FEMA in that state.

Even during Rita, a judge in Texas authorised the local law enforcement officers to use force to take resources from FEMA if necessary. He told them if they had enough firepower to do the job, they should just go ahead and do it. Can't blame that on Nagin and Blanco.

Subject: RE: BS: Previous Presidents and Hurriicanes
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:04 PM

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military failed to provide adequate emergency communications for Hurricane Katrina response, contributing to days of confusion after the storm devastated Mississippi and Louisiana, the admiral in charge of domestic defense forces (Adm. Timothy Keating) said on Thursday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050929/ts_nm/hurricanes_communications_dc

Now there's an honorable man who understands the problems with the federal response to Katrina, and can probably be trusted to do what is needed to fix them.