Dave Matthews: Whats up with him

Subject: Tech: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:27 AM

As many will know I am not a fan of a lot of people others view as Gods in their world. these include: Woody Allen, Seinfeld, Bob Dylan, Garth Brooks, to name four.

Right now I'm wondering about Dave Matthews.

I have friends at open mics who are doing Dave Matthews songs and I must say I am puzzled. I hear things that are interesting as far as the beat goes. But I also hear minimalistc but repeititous and dull melodies, lame lyrics, vocal acrobatics that are puzzling in their purpose.

Like I was with Jerry Seinfeld when I was waiting for the joke. With Dave Matthews I am waiting for the amazing and finding
a muddle of confusion.

Except for the drummer who ever he is, he is probably the best drummer many kids will ever hear and not realize how good this man is.

I am puzzled by his, Dave Matthews, guitar style. I just don't understand it. I am not saying it is bad or that I don't like it. I just can't figure it out. What is going on? Is he playing a full chord as a primary and then partial chords on the off beat to walk up or down to the next full chord? I can see where this style has it's uses and would be interesting to try in some instances. But otherwise I find it confusing.

But much of Europe found Van Gogh, Renoir, and Dali to be muddled and confused until they realized what they were doing. Maybe it is the same for me. Anyone want to take this on?

Don

Subject: RE: Tech: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:12 PM

It sounds like to me you dont know anything about the dave matthews band, the drummer is named Carter Beauford, he's one of the best drummers today. I wonder what songs you have heard, becuase to call the lyrics he writes lame...is ridiculous.

And your opening line..are you saying that Bob Dylan isn't a god in music? You'd be an idiot if thats what your saying. He is one of the greatest song writers in the history of music, he was one of the original rebel rockers...the music industry owes everything to bob dylan

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:40 PM

Hi Guest,

Well, I do drool a lot.

You are right, I know very little about the Dave Matthews band. An I already said his drummer was spectacular. Liking someones lyric sense is a matter of taste. Not proof of one's idiocy.

Now if you can explain in an idiot proof manner what he is doing I'd be less of an idiot.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:29 PM

He's leading one of the most popular bands in the United States, they have an energy and style unparalleled by anyone. They create music that they enjoy, they dont make it to make people happy. His style of guitar playing is different, and for that it's exciting to hear. When you put the best drummer of modern times, and a classicly trained violinest on top of that you have one of the greatest bands on earth. It's a proof of idiocy on your part to say his lyrics are lame when you dont even listen to him, and you dont know his lyrics, and you dont know what they mean. If dave's lyrics are lame...than all other writers lyrics would be..undescribable. Listen to his music and become overly familiar with it before you criticize it.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:16 PM

Hi Guest,

Ok, so you are not a guitarist and if you are you are not guitarist enough to help me figure out the mechanics of this playing style. I agree with you, at times it is an exciting and quirky style. Other times I find it muddled.

The style he plays has nothing to do with his lyrics which I am now aware that you seem to like very much. Thats fine. If you can't tell me he's doing on the guitar we might better end our onversation here.

Perhaps someone else can help me out.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:20 PM

Don,
Re: Dylan - I'm with you. Hardly a god. But you're wrong on Seinfeld. Having lived in NYC most of my life I can assure you his show was hilariously on the mark more often than not.

Guest - Dylan, an "original rebel rocker"? He was a little late for that. And as for "Original", even he admits he borrowed and stole frequently. Calm down. The world isn't all black and white, right or wrong.

By the way, Don asked for an explanation of MAtthews' guitar style/patterns/etc. No comment to elucidate and enlighten poor Don?

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:28 PM

Sins,

I am not poor. I work steadily and people freely pay me for some damn fine silver and gold jewelry. At any given time I have as much as $8.00 dollars on me.

But thanks for saying hello.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: number 6
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:04 AM

You have to see Dave Matthews live to really appreciate him .... his records don't impress me at all ... it's the live act that is what he really is all about.

sIx

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,ok, so I'm a shite guitarist
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:38 AM

I know feck all about him and I dont care..

the worlds full of promising mediocrities..


but I do find this pedantic disection of guitar playing styles
a touch concerning..!!!!!???


we play.. how we play.. simple as that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:48 AM

My, enigmatic?

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,ok, so I'm a shite guitarist
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:58 AM

What is going on? Is he playing a full chord as a primary and then partial chords on the off beat to walk up or down to the next full chord?I can see where this style has it's uses and would be interesting to try in some instances. But otherwise I find it confusing.


whaaaa??


seriously.. I dont know where that comes from.. I find THAT confusing ?

we listened to records.. watched guys play.. and picked it up by ear and example..


if it sounds right in a song.. then its ok..


sorry.. but I am a bit perplexed..

not trying to be 'enigmatic'



but would'nt mind being Chuck Berry or Eddie Cochran or Buddy Holly or etc


.. I did'nt even know they had 'primarys'and 'partials' and 'off beat walk ups'
in those glorious unselfconciously inovative guitar expanding days..

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:53 AM

I am a little surprised to see such rudeness as a response to a polite inquiry by Don. I can recall artists whom I could respect, but who did not move me at all until I connected at a later date. Rory Gallagher was one and Graham Parker was another. Don has asked people, who are fans of Dave Mathews, to explain why it is that he has become special to them. It strikes me as the request of a polite and open minded man - and it deserves better than this.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:04 AM

Hey Lord don't ask me questions.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,An Englishman Abroad
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:24 AM

hey Alanabit

I agree with you. Question asked rude answer given. Did guest get up on the wrong side of the bed.

I have never seen Mathews live but extracts on TV and slots on the radio left me cold. Over rated in my opinion but that is just me. I may change in the future perhaps if I see him live, who knows.

all the best John

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:18 PM

I'd like to say that I've never heard of Dave Matthews. If Mr Meixner has heard of him, and wants help in figuring him out, then that's fine by me - what's the problem?

Actually, I think that there are 2 problems here:

Arrogant people like 'Guest' who automatically assume that if someone doesn't like, or 'get', some musician that they like then that 'someone' must be an idiot - not true!!!

The tiresome belief that popularity always = quality - again, not true! I am reminded of the phrase 'eat s..t, 10 million flies can't be wrong'.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

Hey Don --

I ttink it's becoming apparent you're asking this question in the wrong forum. Try Guitar Talk. You'll have a better chance to get a response from someone who actually knows what you (and they) are talking about.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:33 PM

I actually kind of like listening to Dave Matthews--as far as what he's doing, it is fairly simple--playing "modal" style, which is to say, playing a vamp of partial chord positions(in Superman, it is the   two finger E 7 figure, first in Sixth position, then in fourth position, then altered so the index is on the G string third fret and the ring finger on A string fifth fret, then to the regular E chord) against the sustained low note of a single chord--

It gives a moving bass line against a drone--which is a nice full sound that all the acoustic guitar players like because they can get a lot of power and movement at the same time, without need of a band.

The lyrics are of the sort that the young people like today, which are, basically, oblique--they sound like they are about something, but you never know quite what--rough time to be young, I guess--

As to the singing style, well, its the same thing--every generation has it's "Alpha Male" singing style-- --I remember when everybody tried to sound like Frankie Laine--

The thing is that he is considered to be mass-market pop by this generation's musical cognescenti, and, therefore, beneath contempt--right up there with Hootie and the Blowfish, Alanis Morrisette, and possible even Jewel--

So the good news is, you don't have to like him to be hip--to be hip, check out The Killers, or Hot, Hot, Heat, or Modest Mouse--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 12:42 PM

Thanks Michael,

I'll give that forum a look.   

And Alan and John I appreciate your comments. The down side of a print medium as substitute for conversation is the lack of nuance. The first Guest may have just been having fun at my expense and I am too dense to notice.

I could just wait until the next open mic where one of these kids will be playing and get a lesson. But I'm always an axious type and "I want to know now!"

Thanks again all.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:15 PM

Hi Ted,

Sorry, some how I missed your note.

Modal sounding? Yup I can hear that. ( I'm listening to a song of his as I type) Leaving out the third note in the chord making a neither minor or major chord?

Thanks on the theory lesson. Is this/are these a movable chord(s) shape that generates a moving bass chop on top of the rhythm? That seems to be what I'm hearing. Every thing after a full chord seems to be kind of bassy. Like the top three strings only. Is that whats going on? I am also hearing a pretty hot rhythmic sense from him. Which if I lack anywhere it is my awareness of the beat.

Thanks Ted. I appreciate the help a lot. Don't hesitate to ask if you ever need to know how to make those pesky C7th chords. I have a fool proof technique involving your little finger.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

I think of his style as African rythm guitar. When I've seen him play (on TV) I've see him playing some pretty complex rythms, everything is damped and oddly syncopated. I've never heard him play a melody.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:24 PM

What I mean is that he plays African rythms on the guitar. He is from South Africa and apparantly learned much of his music there.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:15 PM

Hi Jack,

I kinda guessed at that too. I knew he was from South Africa and that suits rythmically. But I sense there is more going on.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:14 AM

The chord figures don't necessarily lack a third, but they do tend work against a drone(but not in every tune), that is either one big fat bottom note or the bottom note and its fifth--more or less what you'd get playing open tunings, though you can get the same effect using moveable chord positions in regular tuning--

The music is simple, in the sense that each voice tends to play a short repeating pattern that doesn't develop or change--but complicated in the sense that it is polyrhymic, meaning that voice has it's own rhythmic pattern, so that the ear hears the interaction between the parts, rather than the discreet parts.

The trick of playing the music is really in getting the feel of the rhythms--when you have that, everything else is just a matter of picking out which voice does what--

I am particularly fond of "Satellite", which sounds really complex, but becomes really clear when you figure out the rhythm--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:15 AM

I meant to say "Meaning that each voice has it's own rhythm pattern" meaning each instrument--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:30 AM

Thanks M. Ted,

Explained clearly enough to make sense to me. I do appreciate it.

I'll now give Satellite a listen and see what I find.

Don

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,Prof. P.Dant Musicpathologistologist P.h.D#
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:41 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dave-Mathews-Band-Central-Park-Con-DVD-New-Sealed_W0QQitemZ6432667868QQcategoryZ617QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

there you go..


only $12.19


analyse that..

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:43 AM

There's an interesting book called "African Guitar Styles" by Folo Graff (A.D.G. Productions 2001) which comes with a cd. I don't know whether it would directly assist the interested student of guitar with Matthews' songs, but it would widen their rhythmic toolbox a bit.

The guitar is, after all, a percussion instrument among other things, though a little more evolved than the bodhran.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:46 AM

Thanks for passing that book title along, Mooh--it could be a very worthwhile acquisition(assuming that I have some time to invest)--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,J
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:43 PM

Check out a South African songwriter named Tony Bird. His style is more simple the DMB, but the pulse is very similar.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: number 6
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:50 PM

For all those trying to analyse Dave's guitar playing .. it got me thinkin' of one of my favourite quotes which is from Woody Guthrie ... "If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."

sIx

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:19 PM

I'd agree with that--but only because there are only two chords--everything else is decoration--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:49 AM

I can't claim any detailed knowledge of DMB's music; I was never much impressed with the few cuts I heard in passing on the radio. But a few years ago, a friend who couldn't make it to a show of theirs gave me and my wife a pair of tickets, and we went on the spur of the moment. I agree with number 6, you need to see them live to fully appreciate them. They stretch out live, with a good deal of improvisation and a building intensity to a lot of their material that I enjoyed very much. And, as others said, Carter Beauford is an outstanding drummer -- dynamic, sensitive, musical, a great asset to the band. I didn't think much of their violin player (don't recall his name); his skills seemed pretty rudimentary, although they served the music adequately.

Matthews's style is more rhythmic than melodic, and as others mentioned he relies heavily on partial chords against a drone. Again, it's effective in context, although it's a fairly narrow style. [Then again, a lot of my favorite guitarists aren't necessarily all that versatile; they do one thing well. In fact, other sorts of artists -- painters, actors, etc. -- can do quite well without a great deal of versatility.] I tend to think that, taken out of the context of the band, his style gets monotonous pretty quickly. But again, I'm no expert, and may be selling him short. I have occasionally seen and heard Dave Matthews in other contexts, including a couple of duets with Emmylou Harris (everyone's favorite duet partner), on which he was very effective in a different style than that for which he is best known.

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:08 AM

Your point is well taken, Whistlestop. I think that popular entertainers generally put together a sound and an act that gets them, and keeps them, in front of a big audience. This tends be be narrow in range, not necessarily because they have a narrow range as artists, but because the mass audience has a narrow range of interest--

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: number 6
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:50 PM

Whistle Stop .... I saw that duet with Emmylou Harris and Dave Matthews ... it was tasteful, beautiful and reflected the 2 outstanding artists that they are.

sIx

Subject: RE: Dave Matthews: Whats up with him
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM

And in a similar arena I saw Garth Brooks on Leno one night do a superb accoustic impromptu of The River. He is a very solid guitarist.

I have to agree with Whistle Stop. I will look for DM in other areas.

Thanks everyone.

Don