BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies

Subject: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:05 AM

I'm not making this up you know...

Tonight on SBS TV on their Dateline program, an Aussie journalist who was embedded with an Airborne unit took film of them facing the bodies of slain Taliban west and setting fire to the bodies. They were also taunting them with loud rock music and statements that they were just a bunch of women too scared to fight them like men. Seems the US troops are getting frustrated by having the Taliban play guerrilla tactics, wanting them to stand up and face them so they can use superior military power to blow them away. It seems to be working.

The Psy-Ops guys don't seem to care that they are breaching the Geneva Conventions.

I suppose the rest of the world will get to hear about this footage tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodie
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:11 AM

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodie
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:12 AM

Robin, do you have a link?

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodie
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:15 AM

Sorry...we cross-posted. But that article apparently isn't there yet.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 09:35 AM

As the Geneva Conventions is an agreement between governments of countries, and Afghanistan isn't a signatory, neither they nor we have to adhere to it when dealing with one another.   Even if it were, cremation isn't desecration. I'm pretty sure that playing rock music and calling the enemy 'sissy boys' isn't included in the Geneva Conventions. Isn't this similar to Monty Python's "I wave my private parts in your general direction" tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 09:47 AM

Good luck to The Airborne unit, rather them than me.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:17 AM

...and it's been going on for ten thousand years...

I can't get too upset about it, at least not yet. And no, I haven't read the article yet, either.

Desecrating bodies, huh?

As this summary indicates, the duty owed to the dead is somewhat subjective. What sort of conduct constitutes disrespect? How can we determine when neglect of the dead has ceased to be mandated by considerations of military necessity and become evidence of the war crime of mistreatment of the dead? There are no hard and fast answers to these questions. However, if the dead are left on the battlefield for some time after the fighting has ended, their very presence is evidence of failure to meet the obligations imposed by law. If the dead are left on the field solely so that they might be seen by journalists or photographed, that is stronger evidence that the threshold of mistreatment is near. If the dead are placed on display as propaganda (dragging the bodies through the streets as occurred in Somalia is a ready example), then the threshold has been crossed and a war crime has been clearly committed. (The whole thing is here.)

Where is the line drawn? At the Pawnee and other nations driving arrows in corpes and mutilating them in other ways? At the ancient Persians and Judeans counting the dead by the number of penises cut off? By the British (and other) troops in WW1 propping up an enemy corpse and having it hold a directional sign and a cigarette? At British, Tory, and American troops scalping enemies in the 18th Century? At the Allied troops bulldozing the bodies into mass graves at Dachau?

Like I said, it's been going on for ten thousand years....

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:34 AM

"Like I said, it's been going on for ten thousand years...."


That doesn't make it right.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:43 AM

Not having seen any video to determine if this is desecration or simple cremation I won't comment on that. However I will say that I'd do it just to ensure that the Taliban/Al Quaida weren't using the corpses as boobytraps (come along, lift the body, bang!- new corpse on the ground).

The other items are pure and simple warfare tactics. Your teenager probably uses the loud music on you to confuse, confound, and anger.
And since a typical Islamic male (I know it's a stereotype) believes that even the youngest boy is above the most knowledable woman, I'd do the same. Why should we play war on their terms?

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:52 AM

The shame is in the desecrating of LIVE bodies by making them dead.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:50 PM

Are the bodies of noncombatants desecrated as well?

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 02:20 PM

Here is the transcript of the program Foolestroupe saw. I'm not sure what the issue is of facing the bodies west, since Mecca is in that direction, more or less, from Afganistan.

By the way, "desecration of bodies" is not covered at all by the Geneva Conventions. The Conventions aren't bilateral, and one side in a conflict, if a signatory, is required to follow their provisions, as long as the other side does. The actual text says: Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

Afganistan isn't the "other side," in this case, and the Bush Government has invented the concept of "enemy combatent" to justify not applying their provisions at all to the Taliban/Al-Qaida forces. It is very questionable that they do meet any of the definitions of combatants that are covered under the POW Convention...the closest fit is probably Article I.4(6): Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. The last clause puts them out, IMHO. However, Article I.5 says they are covered until a tribunal decides otherwise [Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.] rather than the reverse as is the process in place, at least as far as the Guantanemo Bay prisoners are concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 03:22 PM

The Geneva conventions are useless. I don't take them seriously and quite frankly I don't think others do either. It's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

The fact is in war you KILL people. There is nothing beautiful or glorious about it. It is the predetermined planned murder of other human beings. Everything else is just words.

It's useless and if history is any indication, ineffective and unenforceable.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 04:04 PM

Rarelamb, war is a terrible thing, as those of us who have been involved in one can tell you. I hope that, as time goes on, you will continue to be protected (no doubt by others) from the consequences of one that is fought without any rules at all.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:36 PM

Actually, I said West in error - they faced the bodies away from Mecca as a deliberate act (I think they said East in fact), in view of the other fighters known to be observing them from the hills. It was the view of the reporter that the cremation was against Islamic burial practices - I am not an expert on that.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:43 PM

I've just read the transcript - after the film, the reporter was interviewed.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:49 PM

I've just read the reporter interview transcript - Yeah - I thought he said WEST - this place is full of loud mouth ignorant buffons, some of them who will say anything to put down ideas they don't like, isn't it?

BTW, the last item on the show is also interesting too - showing that the attitude of the US in inciting Iraqis to revolt against Saddam and then leaving them to their fate is not new - Laos shows that it has happened before.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:06 PM

As far as I can tell, facing a body toward Mecca is required by Muslim burial customs, but cremation is frowned upon. Sounds more like ignorance to me than intentional desecration.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:44 AM

Obviously no more intentional than accidentally getting urine on a copy of the Koran, I suppose...

shit happens...

Of course the on the spot reporter apparently didn't think so, from what he said, his tone of voice and his face. The show was repeated this morning, the normal practice with Dateline.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:46 AM

It is in the US news today, and the military command says that an investigation is underway.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:03 AM

I just read the article as well.
To me It doesn't sound as if it was intentional desecration of the bodies. If that was the intention, something far worse would probably have been done, and not in front of a reporter. Cremation is a perfectly reasonable way of disposing of the dead for most cultures.

As for playing Fleetwood Mac at them, and calling them a bunch of Women, well, I can hear worse any weekend at pub chucking out time, and probably louder then the troops were doing it too!

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:06 AM

When you criticize only one group for things that are done by all groups, you are practicing hypocrisy as well as bigotry. (Carol C)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:08 AM

I don't believe that you can have a war 'without any rules' so to speak. You fight based upon whatever doctrine you think is appropriate in that circumstance.

If you are at a severe material disadvantage then you are going to fight with an assymetrical war doctrine. If you are superior then you may take a attrition doctrine. etc. etc.

The point is that you have to fight the battles in ways that are appropriate for that situation.

For example, in WWII German pows in the US were treated very well (in fact in some ways better than black US citizens). But the few Japanese that we were able to 'capture' went to intel and then killed. This is totally appropriate given the situation. If taking the prisoner has a high probabilty of death due to them carrying a grenade or other explosive then you are going to treat them differently than if you take a German prisoner.

In Vietnam, our men were routinely tortured. Should we treat their men the same way as the Germans in WWII?

In the war against terror, do you think we should treat people who are diliberately targeting the most number of civilians the same way? Or who cut off the heads of kidnapped citizens the same way?

On a practical point, I don't think that torture is effective. Everyone has a breaking point and anything you get is because they will say anything to stop the pain. I don't have a problem with using it as a deterent to make the other side stop.

An example of this is when Hitler decided not to use chemical weapons. It wasn't because he had some honor reason not to, it was because he was afraid the Britts would use their stockpiles.

So, what I posted was that it doesn't make sense to follow the Conventions and it isn't enforceable.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:20 AM

The whole point of the Conventions was like an early form of M.A.D. - which was a sort of unofficial convention in itself. The US broke the 'conventions' when they dropped the bombs, but once could argue that it was partly due to ignorance of the after effects.

Of course, the Japanese had a different culture, in that no true warrior would allow himself to be captured alive, but would fight to the death, so they had no respect for enemy soldiers who though any different. The European practice grew out of centuries of gradually more bloody warfare, and perhaps a bit to out of the medieval to 16C practice of 'war by mercenary', especially in the Italian states.

The point about Hitler was just how it was supposed to work. He was also gassed in WW I, so knew a bit about that too, and just how nasty it was...

The old saying about 'treat your enemies how you would like them to treat you' was partly born out of fear...

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 10:42 PM

Hmmm. When my wife died, I had her cremated and her ashes buried in the close of our Anglican church. Never even considered it desecration. My children gathered around as her ashes were buried and the Rector of the church led us in a prayer. I guess we are all guilty. Right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 11:05 PM

Where was the family and the Mullahs when these bodies were cremated, DougR?

You can't compare apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 11:13 PM

The Australian News Media is saying "the bodies were burned and the remains used to taunt the Taliban"....

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: NH Dave
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 12:19 AM

Many of the religious beliefs in that area require cleansing of the corpse, rapid burial, and the whole corpse, not miscellaneous parts that could be gathered up. Burning the corpses certainly interferes with this third desire/requirement. British forces in India during the revolution routinely "blew living men from cannons," by tyeing them across the muzzle of the cannon and firing the cannon. Rudyard Kipling, in his barracks room ballads noted the fierce cruelty of the Afghani women, in his advice to the young newly arrived soldiers.

    When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
    An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Again, some of the people involved here, are Psy-Ops people, trying to make a point in the "hearts and minds" struggle. Playing unusual, to the recipient, music loudly has been one tool at hand for the last 20+ years, while broadcasting material designed to break the opponent's spirit has been in use for almost a century, on both sides of each struggle.

If the Al Quaeda forces are so fundamentalist and unstable that playing loud and unpleasant music "forces" them to rush out to do immediate battle, to avenge the "insult," then we should keep on using it. Especially as it seems to be a viable means of bringing about a pitched battle rather than constant sniping from behind a distant rock. The British had little better defense against the constant sniping against columns four abreast, back in the days of the Raj, so if this works for us then let's go for it. British soldiers these days have much more unpleasant but effective means of goading their oponents into battle; and use them with favorable results - for them at least.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 12:43 AM

Dianavan: they were probably "educating" more terrorists in the art of killing coalition forces and innocent Afghans.

Excellent point, Dave, but is that method considered cricket? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US forces in Afghanistan desecrate bodies
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:22 AM

Well, it ain't baseball mate!