BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?

Subject: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

Curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Michael
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:26 PM

Vegetable oil can be used to power vehicles, there were news reports about it earlier this year. Police cars somwhere running on used fish frying oil.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:28 PM

Sure. Fuel oil can be composed of many products, right? I'd like to see the byproducts of cattle, humans and vegetables be routinely captured and utilized. A never ending supply of fuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:31 PM

Biodiesel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:36 PM

The previous mention was in This Thread, although it suffers from not appearing in date order.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:39 PM

Biomass conversion was experimented with large scale by a company in Brazil, but they folded. It is a viable source of a fuel, requiring engine conversion. Petrol engines are much less flexible about what they will run on than diesel engines -- a trade off for their speedier response and high energy-density of gasoline. But they do make such conversion kits. I am not sure how much biomass you would need to make a gallon such fuel, but I am sure the data is out there somewhere.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:41 PM

Thank you all for posting. I have not made myself clear I don't think.

I mean, is it possible to amnufacture oil/gas from its chemical components? (Carbon compounds, hydrogen, oxygen, and sulfur.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 05:42 PM

Jaysus

MANUFACTURE

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:09 PM

probably....but not efficiently

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:27 PM

Mohawk Oil in western Canada sells fuels made in part from forage crops. They have operated in Calgary and region for several years. Hydrogen, however, is poised to overtake biofuels rapidly.

Stockholm and some other European cities have a few hydrogen-fueled buses on the streets, and Perth, Australia will have some by the end of the year. Iceland's transportation fleet runs on hydrogen.
Still in the testing stage, but hydrogen is set to become prominent before long. The buses are being tested in Orlando, Florida, where Chevron-Texaco, Ford Motors and others are breaking ground for the State's first hydrogen energy station. The Ford buses will be used first in service to the airport.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:39 PM

Peace

If you google gasoline synthesis there appear to be some promising sites. I'd check them out but don't have time right now, off to watch a hockey game.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:40 PM

Many scientists have objected to the term "fossil fuel" because there is little support for the concept that cude oil or natural gas came from dead dinosaurs. Or dead plants, for that matter. People will believe what they want or what they are told. Too bad that alternate views are never put out for public debate.

This book helps to correct the information imbalance. Please see if you can get your local library to order it...


         
WND ON THE AIR
Corsi, Smith on 'Coast
to Coast AM'
Authors of 'Black Gold Stranglehold' to talk about new book
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 25, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com


Jerome Corsi, Ph.D., and Craig R. Smith, authors of the newest WND Books offering, "Black Gold Stranglehold," will be guests on popular talk-radio program "Coast to Coast AM" Thursday at 1 a.m. Eastern to discuss their book.

Subtitled "The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil," Corsi and Smith's book explores and debunks some of the popular myths surrounding the international and domestic politics of oil production and consumption to provide Americans with beneficial information while being held in a virtual stranglehold at the gas pumps.

In "Black Gold Stranglehold," Corsi and Smith expose the fraudulent science and irresponsible politics that have been sold to American people in order to enslave them. By debunking several myths, the authors provide an outline for progress that would help to establish America as energy-independent.

The pair address the following issues in "Black Gold Stranglehold":

*        The myth of fossil fuels: Corsi and Smith argue that the deep abiotic theory of oil is a more reliable theory than the fossil fuel theory. It rejects the contention that oil was formed from the remains of plant and animal life that died millions of years ago. Instead, they believe in Thomas Gold's argument that oil is abiotic: "a primordial material that the earth forms and exudes on a continual basis" and is "pushed upward toward the earth's surface by the intense pressures of the earth's core and the influence of the centrifugal force that the earth exerted upon the specific gravity of oil as a fluid substance."

*        The running-out-of-oil myth: The 1970s scientific study known as Hubbert's Peak, predicting we would exhaust oil reserves by 2003, has been proven false. We are currently sitting on "more proven petroleum reserves than ever before despite the increasing rate at which we are consuming petroleum products. New and gigantic oil fields are being discovered at an increasing rate, in places the fossil fuel theory would never have been predicted as possible.

*        The global warming hoax and other environmental myths: Corsi and Smith present compelling evidence that "burning fossil fuels does not release into the air chlorofluorocarbons or halon compounds, the types of chemicals identified as the culprits causing holes in the ozone." Instead, "human beings breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide" while "plants absorb carbon dioxide and throw out oxygen."
*        The folly of oil conservation: "Black Gold Stranglehold" presents and documents how no alternative energy option has been able to provide enough energy and how each alternative has been deemed uneconomical.

*        Oil playing a part in the illegal-immigration problem: Mexico has the third largest proven reservoirs of crude oil in the Western Hemisphere behind Venezuela and the U.S. As a result, the United States imports virtually all the oil Mexico exports. Consequently, "the U.S. government finds it difficult to take a systematic, hard look at the nearly free flow of illegal immigrants coming across our southern border. As a hedge against instability in the Middle East, the U.S. government has to calculate our oil needs when considering any steps we take regarding Mexico or illegal immigrants.

*        The value of the dollar and its effect on terrorism: "In recent years the buying power of the dollar has decreased 40 percent on the average against all major foreign currencies. Since dollars can no longer be exchanged for gold, no hard, fixed commodity stands behind the U.S. international payments, including oil purchases. Osama bin Laden's "war against America was fueled by his belief that the U.S. has stolen the oil of Muslim countries. At the core of the issue is bin Laden's perception that America has paid for oil, a hard commodity, with paper dollars that are no longer backed as they once were by the hard commodity of gold."

*        How high the price of oil?: "Today, the U.S. oil industry is sitting on a quantity of oil reserves that has never been higher. Still, we have built no new refineries, and the refineries in operation are producing at or near capacity. The picture that emerges is one of industry conglomerates simply sitting on large reserves and waiting for oil prices to go even higher. At some point, increased gasoline prices become an inevitable drag on the economy."

*        Terrorism and Its Threat to Oil: Terrorists are "willing to bet that the U.S. will not be able to afford politically or economically a protracted global war against radical Islamic terrorism. Terrorists, like governments determined to impose price controls on oil, act to disrupt free markets. In doing so, they clearly understand the economic harm they can inflict."

"Coast to Coast AM" begins at 1 a.m. Eastern time on radio stations across the nation. The program's website includes a listing of affiliates that carry the show.

The "Coast to Coast AM" interview marks the beginning of a campaign to publicize the new book, which is now available at WorldNetDaily's online store, ShopNetDaily. If you'd rather order by phone, call WND's toll-free customer service line at 1-800-4WND-COM (1-800-496-3266).

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:44 PM

Thanks, all. I don't believe--never have--that fossils/dead creatures led to the creation of oil deposits. Seems much too pat for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 07:16 PM

Turkey in the Tank:

High Price of Gasoline Is a Boon for Biofuels

Whether Leftover Poultry Bits Or Old Grease From Pubs, It All Has Diesel Potential

By PATRICK BARTA and SARAH NASSAUER

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October 28, 2005; Page A1

What comes out of a small refinery in Carthage, Mo., isn't unusual: up to 500 barrels a day of diesel fuel. It's what goes in that sets it apart: turkey feathers, turkey bones, turkey fat and sometimes even whole turkeys.

With oil prices above $60 a barrel and pump prices soaring, drivers around the world are scrambling for alternative fuels. A little processing can make fuel out of all sorts of commodities, and today people are proving it not just with turkey-farm leftovers but with used cooking oil, coconut meat and cow dung. [Rudolf Diesel]

The Missouri diesel plant belongs to Changing World Technologies Inc., a West Hempstead, N.Y., company. It says its "thermal conversion process" is a speedier version of the geological drama that made petroleum -- crude oil being simply organic matter pressure-cooked under the earth's surface for millions of years. The difference is that this process uses turkey parts rather than the microscopic plants and animals of yesteryear. Waste from a nearby turkey-processing plant goes in, heat and pressure separate oils and gases, and diesel comes out. The company sells the fuel to a nearby industrial facility to generate power.

Chief Executive Brian Appel claims the turkey diesel is competitive with the petroleum-based stuff, thanks in part to recent U.S. tax incentives for renewable resources such as farm waste. Turkey oil, he declares, is "one of the most significant investments in the energy community" since the first commercial oil well was drilled in Pennsylvania in 1859. A spokesman for ConAgra Foods Inc., which holds a minority stake in Changing World Technologies, says the company is in a "wait and see mode" with respect to the turkey-to-oil venture.

In the late 1800s, Rudolf Diesel himself envisioned a future in which farmers used everyday crops -- notably peanuts -- to fuel machines. Environmentalists have long touted the benefits of fuels made from renewable organic matter. These "biofuels" often burn cleaner than petroleum and could, if used extensively, push back the day when the world runs out of oil. The most familiar is "gasohol," gasoline blended with alcohol made from crops like corn or sugar cane.

Even at today's lofty crude-oil prices, biofuels typically require subsidies to be cost-competitive with standard petroleum fuels. In Germany, for example, "biodiesel" is cheaper than ordinary diesel -- because it's exempt from an energy tax.

The International Energy Agency in Paris figures the cost of biofuel often exceeds the cost of fuel from traditional crude by 35% or more, per unit of energy released. Such fuels now supply only about 1% of the world's transport-fuel needs, the IEA says.

United Kingdom-based Green Fuels began selling kits a year and a half ago that allow farmers and small businesses to use waste oil from restaurant fryers to make biodiesel. A closed system of plastic drums and pipes, the kit takes in methanol and caustic soda along with lukewarm vegetable oil, and produces a mixture of glycerin and biodiesel, from which it siphons the latter. Company President James Hygate says sales are so strong that a new energy crisis of sorts could emerge: a cooking-oil shortage. Mr. Hygate says five months ago the company was selling about eight machines a month. Today, it sells about 45 machines a month.

Richard Smith, a farmer in South Warwickshire in central England, bought a Green Fuels kit to run his farm equipment and cars in August 2004. Since then, the price of the used cooking oil he buys from a local collection firm has risen about 30%.

"It's just supply and demand," he says. Mr. Smith could save a little by collecting the oil himself from local pubs, but there's now competition for that -- plus the stuff from the collection firm has had the bits of potato and fish filtered out. And the firm will often haul away the glycerine free of charge.

"I'm not a 'green,' " Mr. Smith says. "I like big engines, big trucks, big machines, but [homemade biodiesel] is just less expensive."

In central Japan, near the foot of Mount Fuji, trucking company Chusun Transport last year installed a 5-foot-tall diesel brewer that turns cooking oil into fuel for three of the company's trucks and several forklifts. It collects its own cooking oil from local restaurants and a school cafeteria -- where it also makes daily food deliveries; the used oil returns poured into the same cans it arrived in.

Motome Endo, Chusun's president, says the cooking-oil fuel is less than half the cost of diesel oil, even with the cost of leasing the machine and the small fees he pays his oil providers. The company could haul the used oil away for free, but then the local government would require it to pay for a garbage-collectors license.

In some parts of Europe, a few drivers of diesel cars are so eager to avoid costly crude that they're skipping the home-brew kits and just pouring vegetable oil directly into their tanks. But that is not recommended.

"Those that are doing this are crazy people," says Raffaello Garofalo, the secretary general of the European Biodiesel Board, or EBB. "If you're lucky your car will run 2,000 kilometers (1,200 miles) -- and then die." The viscous vegetable oil gums up the fuel pump and injectors.

In Thailand, a Danish company is trying to develop a facility to turn meat from discarded coconuts into fuel oil for farmers' tractors. The idea surfaced a few years ago, says Kraisit Musikchat, a Thai adviser to the Danish dreamers. Back then, coconuts were costlier than diesel, and "everyone said it was such a waste of time," he says. But today the economics are turning their way. The company puts the meat into a machine that squeezes out the coconut oil, which it then mixes with diesel to create a hybrid fuel.

In India, people who want alternative fuel collect cow dung in a backyard box called a "digester" -- made of bricks and concrete or steel or even rubber -- and add water. Over time organic processes will produce gas. As pressure builds up in the digester, the gas can be piped into a home for cooking. Biogas experts say three cattle will generate enough gas to cook for a family of five. Larger models can produce enough gas to run a motor to pump water or generate electricity.

Indians are accustomed to burning dried cow dung as a fuel, and digesters are common in some areas, but high oil prices have given the idea of dung power new urgency. The government carpeted the country earlier this year with a pamphlet urging (in several languages) the development of renewable energy sources. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself contributed a couple of paragraphs of encouragement.

Oil may be growing harder to find, but as K.C. Khandelwal, an adviser at the Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy Sources in New Delhi, notes, "dung is always available."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 07:28 PM

GREEN FUELS KITS - in the UK

I heard of a Dutch chap that ran his home gas-lights from gas captured from his backyard bog. When the lights dimmed they would go outside and jump up and down a few times.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM

Gargoyle, that is a very funny image. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:04 PM

In Japan, just after WW II, most public busses had a large tank on the back that (I was told.) used charcoal and chicken shit to generate fuel. The exhaust stank, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:19 PM

All part of my intelligent design-

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:51 PM

I'd believe that gasolene engines could not be run on other less potent fuels if I didn't know about the gasgogen converters in use in France and perhaps England during WWII. These converters were large stoves that burned wood and the car ran off the methane and other hydrocarbons produced from the burning buring wood. They didn't go very fast or have a lot of power, but they sure beat walking around.

   This week Time magazine did a short bit on using pig manure and other things in some sort of a digestor to generate methane, and India has been using the manure of the sacred cattle walking around all over the country to generate methane for heating and cooking.

   Fuel oil itself can certainly be made from other ingredients, but it may not be a cost effective process, so it wouldn't work well in the long run.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:58 PM

Not only is it possible, but too pricey at present, in the near future it will be able to make and improve fuel oil through nano-scale processing which will be able to synthesize compounds from raw materials at (one hopes) a far lower cost per ton than digging, drilling and refining gasoline.

I'd love to see the day when old landfills, for example, are mined by nanobots for the raw materials to reuse for fuels, new plastics, new steel, and other commodities.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 10:07 PM

To build up long chain organic molecules from short chain ones takes net input of energy. 'Cracking' petroleum involves basically breaking down long chain 'lubricating oil length' ones to 'petrol length' ones with a catalyst, pressure and heat.

Diesels (and jet engines) can run on 'longer chain' organic molecules than 'petrol' engines - methanol and ethanol and gases will work in 'petrol' ICE engines, but they need to be adjusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 01:04 AM

There are a dozen or so ethanol plants in my County, and quite a few more scattered around the state. Some of these plants have been in production for several years. With current production economies, ethanol isn't cost effective at the fuel prices we've had, so most of the production went into "gasohol" with 10 to 20 percent ethanol added to gasoline. The G10 and G20 fuels generally are available only where they're subsidized, although the "price break" from the subsidies isn't huge.

In a few localized markets, G10 has run at around 15%, plus or minus a bit, of retail fuel sales; but it's still not universally available.

The $3 (US) per gallon (US) is about the crossover point where many believe that ethanol additive fuel could be competitive without subsidies, so obviously some have been quite excited recently. I haven't heard what they're saying this week, since regular gasoline dropped back below the $3 line.

Most US manufactured gasoline vehicles manufactured in the past few years can use up to 20 percent ethanol mixes without modification. Most recent year imports are ok with it, but there are a few unexpected exceptions. Older vehicles may have problems. It's primarily a problem of exposure of elastomer seals to the ethanol, which "eats them up." There are a few metal parts used in older vehicles that are severely corroded by the mixes. Engines with fuel injection are a bit better with it than simple carbureted systems.

Conversion of older vehicles is not normally cost effective. They'll run on it with essentially no modification, but they won't run very far.

Manufacturers are working on raising the percentage of ethanol that can safely be mixed in, but they don't seem to like to talk about whether you can burn fuels that aren't widely available. A few fairly small trial fleets are running the pure stuff now; but it's unlikely that "pure ethanol" fueled vehicles will be common for quite a while.

A main advantage of using ethanol to supplement (not necessarily to fully replace) existing common fuels is that the existing distrubution systems can handle it. There are few of the other frequently touted alternate fuels that don't require developing new storage and distribution infrastructures.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:09 PM

OK. Where does oil come from? That is, how does it occur? How is it made?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:10 PM

Let me rephrase that. It's in the Earth. How did it get there? The crude is what I'm talkin' about. (I know more or less how it's handled once it leaves the ground.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

Peace

Here is a link to a site that has some info on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:31 PM

Thanks, Bobad, but that's the story I don't believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:31 PM

The basis of 'organic 'chemistry' is a group of four elements: Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon and Hydrogen.

These four elements can be combined in a nearly infinite number of configurations to produce fuels, plastics, even food.

These four elements form a major part of the planet Earth, and are subjected to enormous temperature and pressure.

At some depth, there is always the right combination of heat and temperature to produce crude oil.

At the same time, other areas will have conditions that are just right for the production of natural gas.

And no, 'organic chemistry' does not mean pesticide-free alfalfa sprouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: bobad
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 04:39 PM

Peace

It does seem that that a lot of the theory is speculative.

Do you have some basis for your scepticism or is it just a gut feeling?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

IT IS ABOUT TIME YOU YANKS STARTED CATCHING UP
WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD AND USING DIESEL FUELED
CARS THEY ARE FAR MORE USER FRIENDLY

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 05:23 PM

Just gut, really. Got to talking with a good friend last night about oil. We went off on a tangent and started laughing when we decided to see what would happen if we presumed that the tales we'd been told about oil--how it came to exist as it does and where it does--was wrong. We both talk now and then about political stuff, economics, like that. I wondered what the 'world' would look like if oil was not scare and the supply of it not quite as finite as we suspect. Not quite sure where we ended up with it all, but it sure was interesting.

Laughed lots at the idea of the big conspiracy being that there was really so much damned oil we couldn't use it all for ten thousand years even if we tripled our consumption, and the whole thing with scarceness was just a ploy to keep prices up. It doesn't make sense to me that the brains of the planet haven't given time to alternate sourses of energy if they know that the supplies we have are going by-by at a fast rate. So, what gives? Just one of those what-if moments.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 05:44 PM

"Laughed lots at the idea of the big conspiracy being that there was really so much damned oil we couldn't use it all for ten thousand years even if we tripled our consumption, and the whole thing with scarceness was just a ploy to keep prices up."

You mean like diamonds? *wry grin*

I invented a car engine that is fueled by will-power alone. I just haven't decided to go out and start the thing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:06 PM

Here is the 'mission statement' from the site to which bobad linked. Note: term "fossil fuel' is used, perpetuating the idea that oil and gas connot be replaced. Note: aimed at school children, insuring a new generation will believe 'the right way'...



"The Energy Institute is an independent body, representing the whole of the oil and gas industry.

The primary objective of the Institute's education and training programme is to provide young people with appropriate information about the oil and gas industry to support the National Curriculum.

One of the ways we achieve this is by sponsoring the 'Exploring for Oils' and 'Fossils into Fuels' e-sources on the schoolscience.co.uk web site.

We also aim to inform young people about the range of stimulating and fulfilling career opportunities the industry offers."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:11 PM

Yeah. Have a universal solvent but can't find anything to keep it in.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:12 PM

To assume a "conspiracy" requires one to believe that a fairly large group of people have all agreed to "wait until the price goes up."

I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't want all they can get right now, and would break any such consipiracy wide open.

GREED is not patient, and it's far too prevalent to expect universal concern even within any fairly small group for "distant future profits."

The widespread and obvious willingness of corporate executives to "gut the company" for the sake of "this quarter's bottom line" makes patience a ridiculous concept in this context.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:14 PM

OK.

However, it was just two guys talking and fartin' around. It's not like anyone would believe it. Everyone, relax.

I didn't SAY there was a conspiracy. I said, what IF the conspiracy really was . . . .

Lighten up. I already started one thread about diminishing oil supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:15 PM

And I am asking the question again: How is oil made by the planet?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:20 PM

Here's something I wrote yesterday but didn't post because the thread wasn't really headed in that direction. Now it is, so it went something like this as I recall:

I think it's pretty certain that the oil companies have a viable, saleable alternative product already developed and ready to market just as soon as they've squeezed every cent of profit out of oil, regardless of the human or environmental cost.

It may not be petrol as we know it, but the cars will continue to run and we, the rats, will continue to run the treadmill for the corporate shareholders, (many of which are us - delicious irony).

The change in fuel will be introduced at the optimum moment for maximum net profit.

That was what I wrote yesterday. Some of the posts above would suggest that I'm being paranoid, but I find it hard to believe that the oil companies have nothing up their collective sleeve. It's just not like them to leave themselves so vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:23 PM

Oh, sorry. I see the thread has already moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:37 PM

OK, one more try.

The basic elements of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are a major part of planet Earth.

At some depth the temperature and pressure are just right to force these ingrediants to form oil and gas.

Ain't that hard to undersatnd. Not like Fibonacci numbers or something!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:41 PM

LOL

So we got lots of those elements around, so who says the planet isn't producing more oil on a daily basis?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 06:48 PM

IT IS! IT FUCKING IS!@!!!

( but we certainly are drawing more out than the planet in producing in a given day, at least where we can get to it...new oil deposits 50 miles deep ain't much use to us right now...)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: mg
Date: 30 Oct 05 - 10:30 PM

I too am of the persuasion that there are retooling kits they will slap on cars the second the shipping lanes are mined...and goodness gracious just hook this pipe up to your toilet and attach to your gas tank and you can get 100 mph. Your car. Also, John of Kansas, I must say that you seem very smart....I always think, gee he is clever, which is not a sensation I often have for most people...

anyway, we have to quit thinking along the same old lines about what fuel will work in our present engines and rethink the whole concept of engines..maybe something else entirely....windup rubber bands? Sails? Back to steam? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:50 AM

mg -

Wind up rubber bands have to be wound up before they can unwind and do anything. In general, it requires more total work input to wind them up than they can produce in unwinding, since there's a bit of friction that gets dumped as wasted heat. So to use wind up rubber bands we need a system of "windup stations" located at approximately 2 to 5 mile intervals on every road we intend to travel where people can stop and get rewound. (Or "to get tight" as it will be known in colloquial terms)

Of course, the windup stations will need to use the cheapest fuel and the most efficient engines known, in order to do the winding, so they will consume all the petroleum fuel available in modified internal combustion engines salvaged from the vehicles we all traded in to get our new Stretch-O-Matic Super Twisters (a likely model name, for our new vehicle that features ribs in place of fins).

The re-winding stations will of course be called "Torque Stops" and will feature greasy spoon restaurants serving only the coarsest of cheap food at whatever price the market will bear, and causing *rampant obesity in all patrons thereof; which of course, by significantly increasing the average load to be carried by our wind up transports, will create a whole new industry making bigger and better wind up machines, getting everybody more and more torqued, until the whole world runs out of rubbers.

Well - - every great step forward kicks up a little dust from the road...

*Side Note: Interstate trucks are as big as they are mainly because interstate truckers eat at truck stops and **most couldn't fit into smaller cabs. (I've been told.)

**Side Side Note: The scrawny interstate drivers are the independents, who don't eat anywhere because every nickel they're paid goes back into fuel and mainenance. (I've also been told.)

Sails -- an interesting concept, but all the really constant winds blow out of Washington D.C. where there is a grand conspiracy that we all know about. This means that you could build quite efficient wind powered vehicles, but you would only be able to travel away from the source of the wind. That this might leave D.C. stranded, and everyone there might starve, might be sufficient incentive to pursue this avenue, but that particular conspiracy undoubtedly has connections with black marketeers who would smuggle anything they need in on a fleet of mopeds currently hidden in the D.O.D. secure vaults near Denver. Chances of success: Zero.

Steam is a definite possibility, and we know how to build quite efficient steam engines. The main problem is that the only efficient alternate fuel, with current knowledge, is coal. The "clinkers" that are left after burning represent a staggering landfill load, or a significant roadside waste problem if just dumped as the fuel is consumed. I have heard however that the high petro prices recently have prompted plans to reopen a number of coal mines. Perhaps big business has been secretely developing this line.

One US ***company for whom I worked for a while has been working on a hydrogen powered automobile since about 1966, using metal hydride storage. They announce, at approximately two year intervals, that they're almost ready to release prototypes for public testing but the situation remains unchanged. But any day now ...

***The hydrogen car was obviously a "pet project" of someone at high level. One of the 2d level managers at that company - obviously not the one pushing the car - was so firmly convinced that he could invent a perpetual motion machine that he'd lurk in the cafeteria waiting for an engineer to come and sit with him so he could "prove" that he'd finally done it. We engineers used to meet just outside the cafeteria to draw straws for who had to go sit with him - and explain his latest prize - so the rest of us could eat in peace. I'll grant that the guy was a world class expert on propeller design, but in 1968 he was still arguing that they should all be made out of wood.

Most of the "alternative fuel systems" mentioned in the early parts of this thread are well known, and could be built and used today. If they could compete on the basis of cost, convenience, and reliability with currently conventional engines and fuels, they would be in use. They were "desperate measures" taken in "desperate times" when better and easier methods weren't accessible. Most of those methods used an "alternate fuel" that could not be made generally available. One "chicken shit" car would require all the "fuel" from a large number of chickens to go very far. If two people in the same community wanted one, you'd have to have one helluva lot of chickens.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:27 AM

Queensland had a shale oil project that consumed a lot of Govy money and went belly up...

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:07 AM

There are two proven, large scale methods of reforming oil.

Shale oil or Tar sand cracking.
    The oil is trapped in a mineral matrix near the surface, which can be mined. If you treat the sand/rock and oil mix correctly ( heat, mainly), it releases the oil. The Athrabasca tar sands are the only major example of this.

Coal reforming: Coal is partially burnt, under caontrolled conditions(Temprature, pressure, oxygen supply, etc), and the very long chain hydrocarbons in it are split into smaller lengths. This process was commonly used to produce petrol, or town gas.
The two major instances of petrol production via this method were apartheid era South Africa- oil embago, and Germany during WWII.


Neither method is that efficiant, so is not worth doing unless oil prices are high, or you gan't get oil any other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM

Sorry, Crystal was here at the weekend. It appears she ate my cookie....

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:42 AM

Most of you are missing the main point, namely how long it takes the CO2 produced by burning hydrocarbons to be sequestered back as hydrocarbons and Carbonate rocks.
Suppose their was no shortage of oil the consequences of using it as fuel at present rates will increase global warming to the point where human life will be seriously compromised.
The point about Bio fuels is that the Carbon cycle time is very short (a few years tops) oil takes millions of years to form or if it's "exuded" from non-organic sources of Carbon then the cycle time is infinite!

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 11:57 AM

Don't forget that even bio- diesel or alcohol are not environmentally cost- free. Both would probably involve taking up large areas of agricultural land to create the feedstock, thus sending up worldwide food prices, which wouldn't to a lot of good to many people.

The only REAL solution is to reduce the use of energy- use what we have more efficiently, and reduce our expectations of consumption. And the people who will have to make the biggest adjustments are those who use most.

Of course, we can also choose to do nothing, deny that there is a problem, and go on circumstances force us into such a position, as the economy collapses.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:38 PM

One immediately reusable stock is found in discarded tires. Shred and burn at low temp (high enough to create steam for a turbine). Unfortunately the resulting smoke is toxic. The rubber itself melts down into an oily sludge that can be processed.

Bio-diesel is a fact. Cost about the same as regular diesel production(price at the pump minus mark-up and taxes). Since every BK, Mc'Ds, Wendys or greasy spoon produces five to ten gallons a day there is at least a small amount that could be made daily.

Compost heaps create methane gas it just needs to be tapped.

The thing I don't understand is why there aren't combined efforts. Line the natural gas electric plants with solarpanels. Use lightweight tubine fans in the exhaust stacks (won't get bird flocks in there). Instead of allowing the steam to escape the top of the stacks, let it condensate and run down to accumulating tanks which would flow to a hydropower turbine. Put the generating plants near the coal mines instead of shipping it all across the country (energy consumption that's unnecessary) (would work with superconductor wires).

I could go on...

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:17 PM

I think it is insane to drill into the earth to get slime when we could be burning, cleanly with good filters etc., stuff that we commit to garbage dumps and sewage plants anyway. There are several areas where I think America has its head up its ass.

1. Renewable energy.
2. Waste disposal.
3. Sewage disposal.
4. Animal husbandry (bird flu will help restructure some of the awful situations).
5. Lack of work and therefore inadequate government assistant for economically depressed people.
6. Failure to plant community trees and perma-orchards etc.
7. Goodness, we could kill a few birds with one stone if we wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

Not unusual to see a serious topic fracture into 15 more/less related topics, but that's Mudcat...

Pied Piper asked "...how long it takes the CO2 produced by burning hydrocarbons to be sequestered back as hydrocarbons and Carbonate rocks"(?)

ans: It probably doesn't matter. The shear size of planet Earth will enable us to utilize oil and natural gas until mankind dies out. That will not come from the usual model presented for global warming. The CO2 is largely consumed by plants which convert it back to O2, more/less the reverse of the burning process that created CO2 and water. Here is a real danger: as the Earth's population soars, trees are cut down and land becomes covered by houses, schools, public buildings and roads. Result is that CO2 formation exceeds the ability of the remaining plant to convert it back to O2.

Again from PP: "The point about Bio fuels is that the Carbon cycle time is very short (a few years tops) oil takes millions of years to form or if it's "exuded" from non-organic sources of Carbon then the cycle time is infinite! "

ans: Not exactly. The oil and gas being produced are very deep. The Earth's core is a molten, super-heated mass and the ingredients of the fuel are being pushed outward toward the Earth's surface. It probably travels as gas, maybe as liquid. Carbon-containing rocks near the surface have little to do with the process. Also, the material we can reach started it's journey long ago, maybe millions of years.

By the way, If you are willing to drill a 40,000 foot deep oil well, you can probably do so on any piece of land on the planet and find a significant amount of oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

Re plants and CO2 use, and then the O2 producers.

The atmospheric percent of O2 has been at 21% for what seems like ever. Why is that since we're killing off the Amazon rainforest and polluting the hell out of our oceans and thus killing O2 producers?

Something ain't right about this stuff still being right if you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 03:43 PM

Just read (in New Scientist) there is a possible fuel in the form of METAL! Apparently you just break it down to the correct size particles and you can burn it in a "conventional" engine. The burnt particles can even be saved and converted into "new" fuel.
Bit like a nuculear fast reactor without all the drawbacks.
I even think I can hear the corporate knees shakeing over at Shell ...... or not

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: pdq
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 04:18 PM

Peace (in our time) asks: "The atmospheric percent of O2 has been at 21% for what seems like ever. Why is that since we're killing off the Amazon rainforest and polluting the hell out of our oceans and thus killing O2 producers?'

ans: The best O2 conversion areas are coastal marsh lands, not open oceans. Actually, most of the crap we dump into the oceans in broken down by microbes. The solid material falls to the bottom where very little (if any) life exists. As to the Amazon rain forest, it has been under attack for at least 400 years and yet only 5-7% is gone. This is in direct conflict with the opinion of some Environmentalists who have been saying "15% of the world's rain forests are destroyed each year"(!) That just ain't true.

Don't get me wrong. I hate pollution, polluters and habitat destruction. I have the same feeling when it comes to propagandists and other professional liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM

mg - killing many birds with a single stone is no longer politically ecologically correct... ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 11:56 PM

Some of my ancestors used to burn Bison "chips" (they were dried out & found on the prairies) as fuel for heating & cooking. When they said every part of the "Buffalo" was used, they meant it! --I have sat at a campfire where "Buffalo" chips were tossed on the fire. Gives a new meaning to ". . . a churnin' urn of burnin' funk."

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 01:54 PM

Some of my ancestors used to burn Bison "chips"

Some of mine, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 03:38 PM

Peace's question has not really been answered. The model that says oil deposits are primarily composed of decomposed organic matter has a certain amount of inertia (it's been around since 1910 or so). That's why they are called fossil fuels.

The counter argument is that geological processes continue to create oil elements which build up in deposits in an on-going cycle, drawing on the heat and forces deep under the surface of the planet.

There is a fairly simple approach to sort this out, I would think -- organic carbon residue is identifiable by the inclusion of organic elements such as DNA and other elements associated with life processes, is it not? Carbon dating is another angle that should be able to narrow down where oil generates from.

I have always accepted the received wisdom of fossil-fuel's organic provenance, but I owuld be glad to be proved wrong. If the planet itself is making the stuff, maybe the scarcity panic is a lot more bogus than boggus. If you see what I mean! :)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 08:42 PM

Amos -

Despite what you see on "CSI" TV programs, DNA analysis can't quite answer all questions. The molecular breakdown and reforming that takes place in production of crude petroleum would certainly eliminate any traces of identifiable DNA fragments.

Carbon dating has been applied to crude petroleum, but the period during which the crude is created and accumulated to form a "field" that can be usefully tapped appears to be extremely long. It is very difficult to separate the variations in isotope concentration due to sequestered aging (the basis for Carbon dating) from variations due to mixing of parts of a field "produced over geological time spans."

An early post in this thread quoted "knowitall authors" discussed on AM radio as asserting that:

The running-out-of-oil myth: The 1970s scientific study known as Hubbert's Peak, predicting we would exhaust oil reserves by 2003, has been proven false.

This is just one "scientific fact" quoted by these authors that demonstrates a basically "crackpot" lack of knowledge, but does offer an basis for comment on the production and depletion question.

"Hubbert's Peak" did not predict that we would "exhaust all oil reserves by 2003." (The cited "talk show authors" obviously didn't read the report, or lacked the math skills to understand it.)

Hubbert's Peak predicted that a specific moderately sized oil field would reach its peak production (the Peak) at a specific future time, and that the rate at which oil could be extracted from that specific field would thereafter decline at a predictable rate. The prediction of the time for that field to "peak" was astonishingly accurate. The prediction for the rate of decline for that particular field was a little less accurate, but still pretty good.

Hubbert's methods have been applied to a number of other specific oil fields, and have been demonstrated - in every case where they have been applied - to be quite accurate in predicting when a given field will "peak." The estimation of how rapidly production will decline after the peak remains slightly less specific, but still convincingly predicts, supported by measured data, that eventually each individual field has a finite "capacity" for producing a predictable total amount of crude oil extractable by economically viable means.

Other analysts - not Hubble - have attempted to make composite predictions for known and functioning crude oil fields. There is some variation in results, but there is general agreement that the "peak" for extraction from all known and currently productive fields lies within a very few decades in the future. Known fields that cannot be tapped now due to cost or political constraints have been factored in by a few analysts - subject to rather large uncertainties - and including "known but untapped" reserves extends the peak possibly by a few years - not even by decades.

Once the peak production for currently operating fields is passed, it is fairly clear that current and extrapolated continual growth in consumption rates can be sustained only by opening new fields.

NO EVIDENCE of any "replenishment" on a time scale comparable to the time required to empty any field that's opened and extracted HAS EVER BEEN FOUND. It is entirely academic what "replenishment" process may or may not occur. All the crude oil that can be found, by us and by our next few hundred generations (perhaps our next few thousand generations) is already there.

A "vast oil field" is, on earth scale, essentially a small "pimple" on the face of the earth. We have looked at large enough areas where there are "no pimples" to make some estimates of how likely new discoveries are. It's not encouraging in the long term (a few decades) but we can predict that production will "dribble down to drips and drabs" in the not too distant future. The only thing we can debate is a quibble over years or decades.

In about the year 15,000,000 CE, if any of the current replenishment theories works, it may again be viable for someone to "invent" internal combustion engines. It will all be new by then.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:19 AM

The CO2 is largely consumed by plants which convert it back to O2, more/less the reverse of the burning process that created CO2 and water.

Sadly, that's wishful thinking. Plants photosythesise (produce sugars) for two purposes: to live (respire) and to grow. The respired sugars are returned to the atmosphere as CO2 almost immediately. The growth of the plant (leaves, stems, trunks, roots, tubers, flowers, seeds etc.) is sequestered until it rots, when bacteria break it down and return the CO2 to the atmosphere. So in all but the shortest terms, the biosphere is CO2- neutral- it neither adds to it nor subtracts from it. that's why the oxygen content has remained essentially constant for millions of years.

But if we add fossil carbon to the atmosphere, the only way this can be incorporated is if the biosphere grows proportionally, otherwise it hangs about as loose CO2. Most evidence suggests that we are actually reducing the size of the biosphere, though it's difficult to measure. At least, few suggest that it's growing.

The CO2 content of the atmosphere is incredibly small- its concentration is only about 0.03%, about a tenth of the concentration of of argon for example. But it is a very active component of the atmosphere, as it is one of the main causes of the greenhouse effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 04:34 AM

Paul B -

An additional factor in CO₂ cycling is that any significant increase in concentration may push more of it up in the atmosphere. Once caught by the trade winds and/or otherwise trapped in high altitude circulation, the excess CO₂ is inaccessible to bio processes taking place at low altitudes, and could persist for very long times.

Some of it is continually brought down by rainfall, but the condensation that might sweep excess gasses down normally occurs at fairly low altitudes within the vertical circulation systems. Ice crystals formed at higher altitudes have little capacity for absorbing CO₂. High altitude gases may be "immune" to cleansing by the vertical circulation.

At present, this is in the category of "suspected processes" without convincing proofs that it does (now) occur to significant extent; but a few people worry that the stabilizing effect of low altitude biological CO₂ cycling could be "broken" if the effect is found to be significant.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 07:49 AM

I'll put this in simpler terms than the textbook does.

"Plants are not the main sink of CO2"

The oceans contain about 60 times as much carbon as the atmosphere... The level of CO2 is controlled to a large extent by uptake and release from [the oceans].

The mechanisms for this are varied, and no-one is quite sure how significant each one is, or how it will change. The only common factor is that the all can only be seen with a microscope, or from a satillite.


Amos- Carbon dating only works for a limited length of time. Currently, using our best instruments, and a very good sample, this is about 100,000 years. It will never be possible to go much beyond that.

And that's a " The moon wil never turn into a lump of cheese " never, not a " Will this guy never get to the end of this off-pitch, unaccompanied version of Tam Lin?" Never...

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 10:23 AM

So much for asking simple yes-no questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it possible to make fuel oil?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Nov 05 - 01:43 PM

Here is a renewable energy newsletter I have just subscribed to..

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/assets/newsletter/