BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: DavidHannam
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:55 AM

Interesting interview whether or not you disagree with him or not. I suppose for those who support him, an insight into common-sense, and those who do not, an insight into racism i imagine. fantastic interview.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4420000/newsid_4420600/nb_rm_4420612.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:40 AM

I am a teacher Dianavan.
I know everyone learns differently.
I think that an immigrant improves his prospects by learning host language.
I would expect them to show willing. That is all.
K.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:52 AM

G'day Bob,
That would be why I could not find it then.
You say it is all drivel.
Could you be more specific in your critique?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:58 AM

"Australian's" railing against "immigrants" - a somewhat tenuous position?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:11 AM

BTW, the European Court of Human Rights has published a final decision today which is relevant for a part of the discussion here:

The Turkish law that does not allow female students to wear a head scarf is no violation of human rights. In its decision the court has argued that the scarf in the last years has become more a political than a religious symbol and that therefore Turkey may legislate against the wearing of that symbol in a public institution.

That argumentation that human rights are violated by being not allowed to wear a religious symbol only has come up in recent years with the increase of fundamentalist islamism. In my eyes, it is similar to attempts of fundamentalist Christians in the USA to get religious teachings into biology classes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:59 AM

What could be more French than rioting and doing violence to the establishment? :) Who knows, in the tradition of french malcotents (read revolutionaries and protesters), from the ashes may rise a modern day robespierre to whip up the masses into a frenzy of oppression. liberte egalite fraternite!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:14 PM

Rubbish, nonsense, hogwash
DER SPIEGEL interview with Daniel Cohn-Bendit (Green MEP)

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:20 PM

On a point of order, France banned the wearing of all religious symbols including Christian ones, not just head coverings, in schools.
The PC brigade in the UK are now insisting that Christian symbols are removed from hospital chapels for fear they will offend non-Christians. Insanity! Leaders of non-Christian groups (including Islamic communities) have rejected this lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:32 PM

Excellent link, Wolfgang ;

"The schools in these neighborhoods are completely overburdened. The teachers are fleeing in droves, and the overall educational strategy in these troubled neighborhoods has failed. These schools were never truly able to address the crisis of immigration, because they operated on the principle that all the immigrants needed was better education in the traditional sense. What they should develop is a system that provides schools with greater autonomy, including the authority to use reform-minded educators. That, of course, requires substantial investments, both educationally and financially."

Its what teachers everywhere are saying. In Vancouver, our classes have a very high percentage of ESL students but when trying to meet the needs of mentally and physically challenged students as well, there just isn't enough time and energy. Teachers are expected to meet the needs of all students but instead of more specialized teachers, class sizes continue to increase. We have endured 10 years of budget cuts. Those cuts mean fewer counsellors, fewer ESL and Special ed. teachers and fewer resources.

Its a recipe for disastor.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:48 PM

Half way to agreeing with ted. If someone legally in the country acts in a criminal manner they should be treated as any other legal resident would be. If on the other hand someone in the country illegally, then acts in a criminal way, they forfeit their rights to 'sanctuary.'

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM

"If someone legally in the country acts in a criminal manner they should be treated as any other legal resident would be. If on the other hand someone in the country illegally, then acts in a criminal way, they forfeit their rights to 'sanctuary."

I have absolutely no argument with that. Who would?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:44 PM

So if an illegal immigrant parks their car illegally, for instance, they should be sent back to some country where they might be tortured or worse. I would have an argument with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:53 PM

The world is a very big place, lets not go to far on that one except to say vast areas of centrak Eurasia is now being depopulated through neglect and enviromental abuse so let them ( all of them ) adapt or p1ss off back there say I!

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 06:16 PM

Someone from a country where 'they might be tortured' would claim asylum. They aren't the ones entering illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 06:30 PM

What if the parking violation, for instance, was committed before political asylum was granted, or even applied for? I believe, most of those granted political asylum enter the UK illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 07:13 PM

You're right, Piers.

"If someone legally in the country acts in a criminal manner they should be treated as any other legal resident would be. If on the other hand someone in the country illegally, then acts in a criminal way, they forfeit their rights to 'sanctuary."

Its a pretty broad statement.

Generally speaking, however, I don't think this should apply to misdemeanors.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 03:51 AM

Piers,
      Your argument about parking violation sounds like the typical wooly, ultra left wing debate I am used to on mudcat. There is one hell of a difference between rioting in a country that you have no right to be in, and parking badly, and you know it!

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 04:18 AM

That is what the guest's post said, no caveats.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM

Poverty does not explain riots and brutality on the scale we are seeing.

France, and Britain in the 1930's went through serious depressions. Did our peoples petrol bomb police, shoot police, pillage, fire-bomb other peoples property? Of course not.

Nationality encompasses more than race, faith and a passport saying you are french/british, it is the way you behave. Equally it could be said to be British you must act like British people, i.e the yob who smashes his neighbours fence down? But of course, nationality is the ideal of your nation to how human decency is, and what human decency says you can or can't do.

Is it immigrants who are rioting! Is it immigrants who are petrol-bombing cars? It is immigrant/s who are shooting at police? If so, then it is an immigrant problem, and to blame it on poverty is an insult as much to the rioters perhaps, as to many folk who have suffered hardship and depressions.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: DavidHannam
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 05:46 AM

Better post in my account name actually. Someone was posting in my name recently. I learnt my lesson about laziness and not logging in. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 06:35 AM

Nationality and race is nothing but bourgeois metaphysics. The claim that someone will behave in a certain way just because they were born under a certain political jurisdiction or their skin is a certain colour is total guff.   

There are numerous examples of the 'indigenous' rioting in the UK, e.g. Peace Day 1919, Gordon Riots, Bloody Friday (George Square, Glasgow), Cable Street, anywhere that the BNP congregate. Those of us actually reading the news will see it is not just 'immigrants' rioting, but your homegrown frenchmen too.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 06:46 AM

Nationality and race is nothing but bourgeois metaphysics. The claim that someone will behave in a certain way just because they were born under a certain political jurisdiction or their skin is a certain colour is total guff.   

i'd agree with that. Skin colour does NOT affect how one behaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 09:16 AM

I will bet anyone $100,000 that in the next presidential election, the democratic candidate will receive over 75% of the black vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 10:28 AM

Underneath all that new-BNP facade lies the same old fascists, eh? You must act like British people, its human decency, indeed! Last I heard human decency had no respect for political boundaries. Immigrants, legal or illegal, regardless of religion, skin colour, ethnicity are cut from the same cloth as you and I they are first and formost working people. Yet, the capitalist ideology of 'national identity' takes over from the material reality of living, working and playing side-by-side with other human beings. Migration of people around the world is a good thing. What keeps the poor poor, what deems people from other places enemies, forces people to move around the world, what makes people fear for jobs and benefits, what erodes cultures is the social relations of capitalism: labour and capital, workers and bosses, non-owners and owners of the means of living. Fight capitalism not each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 10:45 AM

"When in Rome, do as The Romans do" particularly if you have no right to be living there in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:12 AM

"Underneath all that new-BNP facade lies the same old fascists, eh? You must act like British people, its human decency, indeed! Last I heard human decency had no respect for political boundaries. Immigrants, legal or illegal, regardless of religion, skin colour, ethnicity are cut from the same cloth as you and I they are first and formost working people. Yet, the capitalist ideology of 'national identity' takes over from the material reality of living, working and playing side-by-side with other human beings. Migration of people around the world is a good thing. What keeps the poor poor, what deems people from other places enemies, forces people to move around the world, what makes people fear for jobs and benefits, what erodes cultures is the social relations of capitalism: labour and capital, workers and bosses, non-owners and owners of the means of living. Fight capitalism not each other."



Hooya!!! An unapologetic Socialist!!! Pray tell, how do you come up with "the capitalist ideology of 'national identity'"?

The free movement of factors of production increase productive potential. How have you determined that capitalism is contrary to this concept?

I would also be interested in an elaboration of your false dichotemies. I, like many others am a laborer and a capitalist. I am a non-owner and a owner of the means of living.

Fight FOR capitalism, not each other :)

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:36 AM

Yeah whatever, Rarelamb, get back to the pasture and wait on the farm truck bound for the abbatoir. If you are a labourer and a capitalist, then I own a capital and I don't, most of my income comes from selling my labour and most of it comes from profits.

Maybe you like being a factor of production, being forced to labour on threat of poverty, not possessing the things you produce, having to support a parasitical class of those who own and control the means of living. I would rather be involved in the democratic decision making process that drives production to meet self-defined human needs.

Nations are aprt and parcel of capitalism, they are states which the capitalists pay to act as guardians of their lolly.

The free movement of factors of production increasing profitability is neo-classical economics textbook propaganda. Capitalism rewards capital, hence the USA's much advertised 'free market' utilises protectionist policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM

"
Yeah whatever, Rarelamb, get back to the pasture and wait on the farm truck bound for the abbatoir. If you are a labourer and a capitalist, then I own a capital and I don't, most of my income comes from selling my labour and most of it comes from profits."

When you talk about capital, you are talking about the financial and physical means of production. Within the financial, you can capitalize a firm with either equity or debt. Anyone with a pension plan or with financial assets, is a capitalist. I own equity shares of a number of corporations. I am the 'owner' of these companies. I am a capitalist. I also labor every day to generate an income. I am a laborer. I expound on this because it is apparent that you lack some fundamental understandings necessary for us to have an intelligent and informed discussion.

"Maybe you like being a factor of production, being forced to labour on threat of poverty, not possessing the things you produce, having to support a parasitical class of those who own and control the means of living. I would rather be involved in the democratic decision making process that drives production to meet self-defined human needs."

I would prefer to be retired if that is your meaning. Who wouldn't? Even if it meant that you enjoy working so much that even with financial independence you would continue to work.

I am confused with "democratic decision making". Democratic is usually referred to when discussing a form of government. But you have made it plain taht you are hostile to governments, and in particular governmetns of nations who are the tools of capitalists. Considering that democratic governments tend to be capitalistic, this usage of democratic seems contradictory. Furthermore, how does democratic and self defined exist? If you mean that a democratic society would provide for greater self interest then I agree with you. This self interest, or as Adam Smith is known to refer to as self love is a fundamental premise behind economics. If you mean something else then please elaborate.

"Capitalism rewards capital" True! But it takes risk and effort. Capitalism also rewards labor. Their is a substantial return on an investment in a college education. And not all degrees by either institution or subject is rewarded the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 01:27 PM

Friend, It is you that should apologise for me supporting the murderous, theiving economic system that ravages and pillages the planet and most of its people.

I'm not the kind of socialist who wants to shoot capitalists. So who is of the capitalist class and who is of the working class makes no difference to me. It is the system of economic organisation that we intend to transform into one that benefits all of humanity, the capitalist class which you flatter yourself with belonging to because you own a few shares is an irrelevance. Where do pensions come from? Where does the money that some workers use to buy shares come from? It is from wage labour. Pensions are deferred wages, that they are used in the finance market is irrelevant, though not when someone gambles it away. Capital, liquid or solid, is wealth used to produce more wealth. Most of the capital is owned by a least people, whilst most of the labour is done by most of the people.

It is so typical that some think democracy can only apply to the state, the system by which we are governed and not governing ourselves. The idea that people can sit down discuss and debate how to produce and distribute goods and services is an anathema to capitalism: minority control of the means of production requires a minority making decisions. In capitalism the 'invisible hand of the market' sorts it out, who needs conscious planning? We have the potential feed, clothe, house and entertain the entire human population several times over yet millions are malnourished, poorly housed and miserable. This is what system of 'no profit, no production' and 'can't pay, can't have' means.

As for self-love, I believe I will be best off by co-operating with fellow humans to build a society where the whole point of work is to satisfy human needs rather than making a profit for the capital owners, and work is a pleasure not a struggle.

Have a splendid weekend

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 02:01 PM

Piers no caveats because I didn't think anyone would be as dumb as to say what you did. Apologies I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 02:01 PM

"I'm not the kind of socialist who wants to shoot capitalists. So who is of the capitalist class and who is of the working class makes no difference to me. It is the system of economic organisation that we intend to transform into one that benefits all of humanity, the capitalist class which you flatter yourself with belonging to because you own a few shares is an irrelevance. Where do pensions come from? Where does the money that some workers use to buy shares come from? It is from wage labour. Pensions are deferred wages, that they are used in the finance market is irrelevant, though not when someone gambles it away. Capital, liquid or solid, is wealth used to produce more wealth. Most of the capital is owned by a least people, whilst most of the labour is done by most of the people."

You are correct that the majority of funds for 'markets' directly come from labor. I would point out that all investment/savings ultimately benefit people (and I use labor in the sense of anyone who works for money, though I suspect you exclude people in management). Your savings provide the funds for capitalizing companies. When you put money in corporate debt (whether on the open market or through financial intermediaries like banks) or equity, you are a capitalist. Savings must equal investment. I do not think this is 'irrelevant'.

"It is so typical that some think democracy can only apply to the state, the system by which we are governed and not governing ourselves. The idea that people can sit down discuss and debate how to produce and distribute goods and services is an anathema to capitalism: minority control of the means of production requires a minority making decisions. In capitalism the 'invisible hand of the market' sorts it out, who needs conscious planning? We have the potential feed, clothe, house and entertain the entire human population several times over yet millions are malnourished, poorly housed and miserable. This is what system of 'no profit, no production' and 'can't pay, can't have' means."

The problem with conscious planning is that the planners do not 'know what the market wants'. This pricing function is best left to the participants in that market lest you run into production and pricing problems the soviet union had when they used sears catalogues to set prices.

It is curius that you mention the 'invisible hand'. The actual quote is "every individual necessarily labors to render the annual revenue of society as great as he can. He generally neither intends to promote the public interest nor knows how he is promoting it. He intends only his own gain. He is in this as in many other cases led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was not part of his intention." Or something like that. What is important is that self interested individuals looking to make money by investing in business do in fact promote profit maximization in that firm. If I save money, invest in a company for the purpose to make money (so that I may retire), then I have a vested interest in making sure that firm makes as much money as possible.

The insurance company that depends on their investments to pay out life insurance, disability benefits etc. likewise depend on their investment in firms to be profit maximizers. The end result of all this profit maximizing is greater wealth for which people like me can retire.

And of course all of this capital creation has the benefit of enriching the society for which the 'individual' belongs. The rising tide so to speak.


"As for self-love, I believe I will be best off by co-operating with fellow humans to build a society where the whole point of work is to satisfy human needs rather than making a profit for the capital owners, and work is a pleasure not a struggle."

Who decides in this world of yours who produces what, in what quantity and at what price? Who is to benefit from these labors? Who is to labor and for how long? This line of thought leads inevitably to tyranny.

What is considered 'pleasure' and who is to determine it? What is a human need and who is to determine it? ........tyranny.

Capitalism is the triumph of the individual and the abhorance of tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 02:19 PM

"Underneath all that new-BNP facade lies the same old fascists, eh? You must act like British people, its human decency, indeed! Last I heard human decency had no respect for political boundaries. Immigrants, legal or illegal, regardless of religion, skin colour, ethnicity are cut from the same cloth as you and I they are first and formost working people.

Firstly, well edited.

What i in fact said was,

Nationality encompasses more than race, faith and a passport saying you are french/british, it is the way you behave. Equally it could be said to be British you must act like British people, i.e the yob who smashes his neighbours fence down? But of course, nationality is the ideal of your nation to how human decency is, and what human decency says you can or can't do.

In fact most first generation immigrants were very law-abiding, probably more so than indigenous folk, but as generations have passed, huge festered anger has grown against the host people/nation.

I merely illustrated that Nationality is MORE THAN RACE, faith, or a passport. To be regarded as a good frenchman, or in fact a good Briton, i consider the qualities of human decency, law-abiding, respect for the native peoples and culture.

Looting, fire-bombing peoples belongings, shooting police, is not worthy of nationhood. Basically, if a native Briton fire-bombed police, i would equally say he is unworthy of being a Briton, and i am sure that if a french immigrant wants to shoot at police, then he has completely acted without dignity as a frenchman.

I suppose nationality could be argued something earned rather than inherited.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: zelger
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:03 AM

I agree that nationality is more than race. i dont subscribe to thinking that our genes affect how we behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 03:18 PM

David says, "Is it immigrants who are rioting! Is it immigrants who are petrol-bombing cars? It is immigrant/s who are shooting at police? If so, then it is an immigrant problem, and to blame it on poverty is an insult as much to the rioters perhaps, as to many folk who have suffered hardship and depressions."

Grab a brain.

It is poor immigrants who are rioting. They have no other voice. Wealthy immigrants don't need to riot.

The problem is poverty caused by discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:17 PM

Do poor 'native' frenchmen riot dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 04:30 PM

And i don't dispute many of them are poor. indeed they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: bobad
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 05:50 PM

"Most of the rioters are the French-born children of immigrants from Arab and African countries."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110700295.html

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 01:54 AM

David asks, "Do poor 'native' frenchmen riot dianavan?" Yes, actually, they have been known to riot and rebel.

The point is, David, rarely do you see the rich, riot. In fact I can't think of any occasion that they ever had to resort to rioting. Rioting, David, is the voice of the poor, whether they are immigrants or not. This time, it is poor immigrants, rioting. The cause is discrimination which native Frenchman do not face.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 02:09 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,Jackie Mason
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 02:16 AM

The only war the French ever won was the revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 04:15 AM

David asks, "Do poor 'native' frenchmen riot dianavan?" Yes, actually, they have been known to riot and rebel.

When? Where?

The point is, David, rarely do you see the rich, riot. In fact I can't think of any occasion that they ever had to resort to rioting. Rioting, David, is the voice of the poor, whether they are immigrants or not. This time, it is poor immigrants, rioting. The cause is discrimination which native Frenchman do not face.

Indeed the rich do not riot. There is no doubting that outcry over poor living standards is a really good and essential thing.

But there are poor french 'native' communities, and to think that native french-people do not suffer from discrimination is too simplistic. Discrimination goes both ways. As in this country, UK, positive discrimination has been a blight on the system of fairness and equality, i.e best man for the job, regardless of colour? In truth, no doubting, that people from ethnic backgrounds have suffered from discrimination in the workforce, but so have native peoples too.

There exists french communities, that are very very poor, but at the end of the day, they do not riot, shoot, commit arson and ruin peoples lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: stevenrailing
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 07:55 AM

dianavan thats bollocks. when do white frenchmen riot like the immigrants are doing now?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 08:15 AM

In 1968 I took a school trip to Switzerland. The train journey was 12 hours longer than it should have been because we had to re-route due to the student riots in Paris.

More recently the French lorry drivers took to burning British lorries and illegaly blockading ports.

As a nation it has been long known that the French are indeed revolting...

Seriously though, the riot and civil disobediance route has long been the way with the Frenchman who disagrees with what the government (or monarchy!) is doing. It does not surprise me in the slightest that the recent rioters are not first generation immigtants. The fact that they are rioting shows that they have embraced the French way of life fully!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 08:41 AM

1968 riots were not thoughtless acts of violence. They were a 'student' revolt, backed by commonist agitators.

And..haulage protests is not akin or in anyway similar to shooting at police, arson, violence, fire-bombing police peoples property.

Cheers

David

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 02:07 PM

Wasn't the storming of the Bastille an act committed by native Frenchmen?

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 04:19 PM

1789? Haha, yes, the french did revolt.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:28 AM

France's integration problems are of their own making. France is not the only european country with high unemployment. It is hugely industrially and agriculturally subsidized. They have been happily employing people with no regard to discriminatory laws. Their equivalent of parliament has the lowest number of female representatives in europe ( I think.)

So what do we do with a country that rides rough shod over minority groups as a matter of course? We give them 50 million euros and a pat on the back. Nice!

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 02:46 PM

As I told once before, even if about 8700 cars were burned in the past few days, France excepting some plots in suburbs, France is quiet.

Dear guest, money we receive from Europe is pointless. I only fear that, with our unemployment level (about 10% of unemployment but 36% in 'burning' suburbs) French way of integration is just a lost dream now.
I saw Bill o'Reilly on Fox news last sunday. His comments was as accurate as Pravda ones : just propaganda bullshits.

BTW, terrorist attacks in July won't keep me from visiting London again as soon as I can, even if we're both English or French told that we are natural enemies. It's time to banish prejudices.

The only positive thing in foreign news for me nowdays is that I can now question the way news are distilled in France : Can I visit the USA because you American hate French? Can I visit New York or L.A. without being shot as white and French, being arrested because France is supposed to support muslim terrorism ? Can I believe it's fine in some southern states - Louisiana for instance - to kill or beat black and blew a guy just because he's black and poor and KKK still rules the southern states ? I just can't or want believe it.

As a true born white Frenchman, a 'gaulois' as youngsters call us in Paris suburbs, jobs or others discriminations against women, muslim, jews oue any other religion but sects really make me sick. My mother is leaving less than one kilometer from a hot suburb, nothing happened to her.

Of course, you have the right to dislike or hate us - we often are sufficient, curmudgeon, arrogant, and God knows we are - but, please, use your brain and don't believe what you're told.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:10 AM

How come when we see riots, almost anywhere, it is almost always young men. Are there no poor or disadvantaged young women ? Saw an interview with some young french immigrant women who were disgusted by these lawless acts. Why is it only young men ? I am just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 10:12 AM

Women ARE smarter than men....