BS: New UK Licencing Hours

Subject: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 04:37 AM

"As a result of increasing dramatically the hours during which alcohol may be sold on licensed premises, those people who habitually consume large quantities of alcohol and cause mayhem on our streets will be persuaded to drink less, and behave in a more civilised manner".

Can anyone else see the flaw in this logic?

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 04:44 AM

I can schee it twice. Hic.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 05:00 AM

Add to that the scare line about binge drinking increasing cases of mouth cancer, and you wonder why people do it at all......

The theory is that with staggered closing times, overstretched police forces won't have to deal with lots of drunks on the streets at the same time. People won't feel obliged to drink as much as possible as quickly as possible before closing and it may make for happier, amicable drunks rather than vicious, mewling, puking mobs making for the same taxi.

'Licenced premises' also covers off-licences, supermarkets and wine/beer warehouses, so it's possible that people will buy their alcohol there and take it home to drink. This has the other advantage that it's usually cheaper in supermarkets and you don't have to find a designated driver who is willing to watch everyone else drink themselves stupid whilst they spend twice as much money on half as much liquid. (Pub price for 1 pint beer = £2.30. Pub price for 1 pint orange juice = £2.80 and you can bet the juice only cost the landlord half that).

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST,BazT
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:11 AM

Almost all of the pubs round my neck of the woods open till midnight now - and usually there aren't many people in them by that time. So I don't think there's much call for late-late-late licences, at least in my town, and I just can't see landlords being prepared to open till four in the morning or whatever. I used to work in the licenced trade myself and the staff and management couldn't wait till 11 o'clock! They have homes to go to as well!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:45 AM

See the following Press Release on the DCMS website.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/global/press_notices/archive_2005/dcms156_05.htm?month=November&properties=archive%5F2005%2C%2Fglobal%2Fpress%5Fnotices%2F%2C

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:59 AM

My experience (and I have plenty) is that the people who are seemingly being 'targeted' by this Loony-Lefty policy don't see a drink as a small part of enjoyable social intercourse - they drink to get rat-arsed, and therefore more time to drink will probably mean they'll get just as rat-arsed if not even more so. They must all be laughing all the way to the pub.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: treewind
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:13 AM

The government has simultaneously launched a massive publicity campaign against excessive drinking, thereby demonstrating its true level of confidence in the new licensing system's ability to achieve a reduction in alcohol consumption.

No doubt all the pubs and wine bars that have eagerly applied for 24 hour licensing are looking forward to their reduced drink sales so they won't have to work so hard.

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:29 AM

I'm sure you're correct Anahata!
I understand that Xmas Lunch at No. 10, Downing Street this year will depart from tradition by eschewing turkey in favour of airborne pork!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 11:57 AM

In Daily Mail today was news that Mr Blair and Mr Brown's local - The Red Lion in Whitehall - had applied but been refused extended opening hours by Westminster Council.

The following is news from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4441328.stm

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:15 PM

I'm not surprised, they attract a bad clientele there.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 01:37 PM

We assume there were local objections........

This story is one where Tessa Jowell is being told-off for claiming that senior police officers are supporting these reforms.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=368747&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:17 PM

Why should some antiquated notion of weather I would drink too much beer of a dinnertime to pack munitions for the boer war have any relevance to me now? Why should I have any respect for MY lawmakers who wish to restrict MY access to alcahol whilst retaining the "24/7" lisencing of the houses of parliement?

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 07:58 AM

Pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM

You're all missing the point, of course. Longer opening hours means more profits for the big breweries. I think that was probably in the governments calculations, somewhere; they just forgot to mention it, that's all. I suppose it just sort of slipped their minds - funny that! Perhaps they just got a bit mixed up and found themselves stating that longer opening hours means less drinking (an easy mistake to make). Then, having said something silly they thought that withdrawing it would only make matters worse and mentioning profits would just overcomplicate things ... perhaps ...?

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST,fat ex-pisshead
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:19 AM

bugger..

just as I've given up drinking to get my body fat and blood pressure down to healthy levels

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:48 AM

The pubs and bars are open long enough for people to get pissed now. Longer opening hours will not, in my mind, cause more people to get drunk. The same 1% or 5% or 10% or whatever it is will carry on getting pissed. The remaining 99% or 95% or 90% or whatever will still remain sensible. There IS 24 hours drinking now. You can buy as much as you want in the supermarket and drink to your hearts content at home.

How on earth are longer opening hours going to tempt the sober minded sensible majority into getting pissed when they can do it quite easily if they want to now? Better still, those 1 or 5 or 10 etc. will, hopefully, become so pissed in the new regime that they will not even be able to leave the bar, let alone cause trouble:-)

The problem here is not licencing - it is attitude. There is 24 hour drinking in Europe. We need to ask ourselves why they do not get anything like the trouble that we do. I lived in Brussels for over 3 months and left the bars at all sorts of times. I never saw anything like the loutishness that I see in Manchester!

Food (or drink) for thought?

Cheers, hic.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:40 PM

Well, I think you've made the same point as I was trying to make Dave, but from a different angle. The powers that be *spit* have introduced longer opening hours on the grounds that there will be less drunkenness as a result. I totally refute that highly-flawed premise on precisely the grounds you've stated - they don't get pissed because of restricted hours, they get pissed because they want to get pissed, and they will continue to do so.

I don't necessarily disagree with extended hours per se, indeed I'd love to see the continental scenario operating in the UK with the same success, but I do believe that the reasoning given for extending hours is perverse and very flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 01:59 PM

OK Strollin Johnny, I don't remember you making these points when the white paper was being discussed. Just like the Daily Mail and the Conservative Party, you keep quiet until it is too late then shout about how bad it is.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: treewind
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 02:09 PM

Plenty of people have shouted about how bad it was. Nobody with the power to do anything about it listened.

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:07 PM

Gutless anonymous Guest - how do you know what I did when the white paper was being discussed? You don't know me, or what my political allegiances are, whether I'm an active branch member of a party, or what letters I may or may not have written to my local MP and/or the Prime Minister. In fact you know nothing about me at all.

I, on the other hand, know you're a troll and that your post isn't intended as a constructive part of a discussion, but is simply a pathetic attempt to cause annoyance. I've been annoyed by experts - you, however, failed dismally.

Thanks Anahata, got it in one!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:16 PM

Spot on, SJ - Keep the longer hours. Stop the yobs;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:22 PM

:-) LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: harlowivan
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 05:45 PM

I work late many nights and yes I would like a pint or two when I finish at 10 or 11 o'clock!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 05:52 AM

Absolutely h, but the main reason given by the govt for the introduction of longer licensed hours wasn't that it would allow you (and me for that matter) a quickie on the way home from the late shift, it was that extended access to alcohol on licensed premises would lead to a reduction in drunkenness and loutish behaviour. That's a flawed argument, because it takes no account of the mindset of those who behave in that way. If they got drunk, as it were, by accident because they were somehow obliged to consume 'x' amount of alcohol within a given time, there might be some sense in the argument. However, they aren't compelled - they choose to drink to excess, and the 'limit' to the time they have to get drunk isn't really a factor (in fact many of these types in our town spend the whole day boozing on Saturday anyway, so shortage of drinking time isn't an issue as far as I can see).

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 06:46 AM

Spot on SJ, that's why so many of them are never totally sober. They just top up each day.

You won't change their habits by altering hours, and late opening is, IMO, likely to make the problem worse by putting pub bingers on the streets at the same time as the night club crowd.

My sympathy is with the police who will have to deal with more trouble at more venues than ever before, within a smaller time slot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 06:46 AM

In defence of our Govenment (and reluctantly) - the agument is the other way around. The past introduction of mandatory opening hours and the attempt to restrict excess drinking by these method has prove not to be effective and is counter-productive.

Removing these restrictions now may not deal with the 'binge-drinking' that has resulted from these restrictions and the big companies clever ways to get around them by obtaining and paying for late licenses (on the pretence of providing entertainment) - but these restrictions do need to be removed if this land is ever to have a chance of having sensible use of alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST,The Barden of England at work
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 10:12 AM

I lived in Spain for 4 years, and it was always the Brits who were 'Rat arsed' by ten o'clock at night - for the first week. By the second week of their holidays however they were suddenly getting the idea - you don't have to beat the clock, and that's what's been wrong in this country for far too long. Why should the minority's behaviour result in the majority being restricted to 11pm closing and does anybody remember 1987? All the doom-mongers said then that all day opening would result in drunks falling about the place at 4pm on Saturdays, and drinking from 12 noon until 10:30 pm would be the end of civilised society as we know it. Didn't happen though did it.

The mind set or a few at the moment is 'Binge drinking' but it's only a few, however it is they that attract all the publicity as it would not make good news showing the vast majority of pubs and clubs where people leave peacefully, and sometimes quite merry. Quite a few of the pubs in my area have never held much store in closing at 11pm (I won't name them as it would be unfair) and never had the 'Binge drinking' problem. Any drunk who came in of course was refused service, which is what should happen under the law as it stands, and will do in the future. 'Binge Dirnkin' happens under the law as it stands now - so what would anybody suggest - close the pubs and clubs earlier?? Remember Australia and 6pm - remember America and Prohibition.

I believe that our friends on the Continent have it just about right so let's give it a try, rather than condemn something before it's given a chance. On saying that I'm seething over the Live Music aspect of the New UK Licencing hours - but that's a whole different ballgame.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 04:59 AM

Except that, even with 24 hour licensing it's nigh on impossible to get a drink in France after 8.00 p.m. except in the main cities.

I think what is misunderstood here is that people think that all pubs in the UK will suddenly be open 24 hours a day. They won't. Obviously.
That they can if they want to is the issue. And most won't want to, except of course in the main towns and cities where excessive drinking is already a major problem.

That having been said, this is probably the most stupid thing this government has achieved in all its term. Soon to be superseded in the most-stupid-stakes by the patio/conservatory tax.

What did we expect?

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:30 AM

As we seem to get the same stupid laws which ever Party is in power - perhaps we should start to blame those who always remain in powerful positions - when the colour of governments change?

Perhaps our problem is really caused by civil servants and local government officers?

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:49 PM

No perhaps about that. The Sir Humphries actually draft the acts, and what a dogs' breakfast they make of it too.

However the politicians tell them what laws they want, leaving it to them to cock up the details in practice. So, ultimately it is the politicians to blame for the knee jerk reactions that lead to stupid laws like outlawing guns that are used for shooting bits of paper in competition, while every lowlife pusher has access to firearms the law can't remove.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 04:47 PM

Post under your real name before you slag off others Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 04:47 AM

Talk to the hand.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:28 PM

well I think it might be all right, perhaps someone will get the idea of opening folk clubs late.

I don't drink these days. but I sometime wish there was a nice club just to go out and see who's about.somwhere without shit disco music. lets face it you can't drink very much if you drive these days. there should be some nice places for us nice people.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:58 PM

Amen to that WLD

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 04:05 AM

I think the new drinking laws are fab! It's 8am here and I'm nicely pissed. Ought to toddle off to work in a minute!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 04:50 AM

Ted - The new law does not take effect until 24 November - so what pub are you currently drinking in?

well I think it might be all right, perhaps someone will get the idea of opening folk clubs late.

I am reminded of Les Cousin Saturday all nighters in Soho. But back then of course the stongest drink permitted then was coffee. But I don't remember enjoying the night any less for lack of alcohol..........

And I seem to remember the events of the night a bit better than I generally do when alcohol is available.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 05:06 AM

Dunno where I am Shambles, I am too pissed to know... somewhere in Hull I think..... maybe go to work tomorrow instead...

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM

I am one of the many people in this country who work 'unsociable' shifts. The new laws will give me the opportunity to be more sociable instead of drinking at home.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 12:27 PM

Without a doubt they will do that HPB, you and many others, and that's good. But that's not the reason the govt. gave for introducing them - hence the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 03:22 PM

http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=19173&d=32&h=24&f=23&dateformat=%25o%20%25B%20%25Y

Pubs with licences granted advised to operate without certificates
The Publican
Published 21st November 2005
Licensees who have had their premises licence granted but do not have their certificates are being advised to operate under the new licensing system.

The advice issued by the British Beer & Pub Association (BBPA) has been agreed with Commander Chris Allison from the Association of Chief Police Officers.
The advice comes less than a week before the new Licensing Act comes into force as only 20 per cent of licensees have received their licensing certificates.
The Act requires that the premises licence be displayed on the premises at all times.
The BBPA recommends that premises should display a notice to the effect that:
"A licence under the Licensing Act 2003 has been applied for and granted by xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx Council. The premises licence summary will be displayed as soon as it is received from the Council. The Premises Licence Holder is xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx The nominated Designated Premises Supervisor is Mr/Mrs xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx."

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 07:05 PM

Ready or not - the Licensing Act 2003 is upon us.

CHEERS!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 04:44 AM

Jeremy Paxman came out with a classic last night when he said - " What makes the Government think they can change one thousand years of alcoholic stupidity with a single law?"

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 06:40 AM

When the drugs don't work there's always something to fall back on.

Dr. HPB

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 08:19 AM

As TerryK said, 24 hour licensing doesn't necessarily mean 24 hour opening. Mostly it means that pubs can choose when to open from day to day and cuts out the need for applying for late licences on special occasions. They will still share the same number of customers with the same amount of money.

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:25 AM

What makes the Government think they can change one thousand years of alcoholic stupidity with a single law?

Smart man that Mr Paxman. I didn't even know that we had the old licencing laws for 1000 years - I thought they were just a legacy of trying to get people back to work on time in WW1. Silly me.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:25 AM

BBC2's Culture Show is doing a piece on the impact of licensing on a range of entertainments, including live music, 7pm this Thursday, 24 November 2005 (8pm in Scotland).

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 10:48 AM

"As TerryK said, 24 hour licensing doesn't necessarily mean 24 hour opening. Mostly it means that pubs can choose when to open from day to day and cuts out the need for applying for late licences on special occasions. They will still share the same number of customers with the same amount of money."

And they will still get just as drunk, and vomit, wet themselves, get their tits out, moonie, assault their peers and sundry police officers, break shop windows and fight with one another. The new hours will not, repeat NOT, put an end to antisocial behaviour in town/city centres (which is what the daft buggers in Westminster would like us to believe).

See ya toneet Sooz! :-)
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: The Barden of England
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 11:49 AM

The new hours will not, repeat NOT, put an end to antisocial behaviour in town/city centres (which is what the daft buggers in Westminster would like us to believe).

The old laws never stopped them either did they. I want to be treated like a grown up, responsible adult, and hope that the mindless minority who are getting all this publicity get their just deserts from the the new powers the police have, along with any idiot who serves the piss heads. They can now get an £80 on the spot fine. Can't come quick enough for me!

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:26 PM

Well, it's no coincidence IMHO that the increase in drunkenness and loutish behaviour has happened over a period when licencing laws have become more and more relaxed. When I were a lad, I say when I were a lad, back in t'60's, all pubs closed at 10.30pm, yet this kind of loutish behaviour just didn't happen. Surely, if the problem is 'Binge Drinking' caused by pubs not being open long enough, 'Binge Drinking' would have been even more prevalent back then when we had even less time to swill ale and get out of our brains?

The plain, simple, unadorned, yet seemingly invisible (to the govt. that is) truth is that these dickheads don't get pissed by accident because they have to drink their 20 pints too quickly, they get pissed becaused they want to - it's their culture, and extending the hours pubs are open won't change that one iota, they'll still get pissed and they'll still behave like the morons they are.

Which is where I came in, and I'm fed up now. I'm off to the pub......hope they've got plenty of Binge for me to drink. :-)
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: New UK Licencing Hours
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:54 PM

Society has changed for many reasons. Can't just blame the ale.