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BS: Eating raw eggs
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Subject: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Wesley S Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:16 AM I caught my mother in law feeding raw eggs to my 5 year old son again. She mixed it into his milk this time. She was doing this for awhile and I thought I had talked her out of it. She's over 70 and is convinced that raw eggs will make him stronger. I'm livid. Can anyone think of a good reason to eat raw eggs ? Is it possible that I'm wrong ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Paco Rabanne Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:26 AM I hope your mother in law gave him a brandy and a big fat cigar to wash it down with like I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Ebbie Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:26 AM All I can say is that it is a very old practice. Cultures all around the world do it, including Alaska. Incidentally, Wesley, ever tried egg nog? Or egg in your beer? I think it's only in modern times since the awareness of salmonella that people have given it a thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Paul Burke Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:28 AM In Japan, you'll get raw eggs with almost anything. Raw eggs and cold sticky rice for breakfast. My dad used to take them, mixed with Worcester sauce and pepper, to clear a hangover. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:30 AM With eggs coming from huge factory farms where I don't trust the Dept. of Agriculture oversight, I never use eggs that have a crack in them, and we don't eat them raw (cookie dough is one possible exception, but we rarely have that here). Salmonella is a real threat, and your mother needs to be convinced that she can make the baby very sick. From the CDC:
Is the mother nursing this child at all? That will help pass along some of her immunities, but it won't combat salmonella. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: jeffp Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:33 AM I doubt she's nursing a 5-year-old. That would be another thread entirely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: MMario Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:34 AM they are more digestible then cooked egg. I've been eating raw eggs for over 50 years. Wesley - in almost every case that raw eggs have caused illness (and there are not that many of them compared to the number of eggs that are consumed) it is because of COMMERCIAL contamination and sloppy food handling in a COMMERCIAL setting - when I was taking classes in food trades - one of the things they brought up was that the number of confirmed cases of egg borne illnesses that occurred in private/home settings was so low that statistically they didn't exist. However - we live in such a sue-happy society that health agencies and cooking experts and consultants all have to be more concerned with CYA then practicality. In the late 50's early 60's cholesterol and it's effects on heart disease was noticed - and someone noted that eggs are high in cholesterol. In the late 60's and early 70's extensive research showed that the lecethin in egg yolks more then counteracted the cholestreol content - and eggs eating could actually REDUCE blood cholesterol levels. But it took until very recently for that even to BEGIN to be noticed in the non-academic community. Likewise - someone noticed eggs *could* possibly be contaminated and *possibly* cause a food borne illness and that cooking the eggs greatly reduced the chances (well - duh! cooking celery greatly reduces the chances of obtaining a food borne illness from celery as well - just as cooking apples, pork, etc, etc,) And we went from - "cook eggs to reduce your chances of illness" directly to "raw eggs can kill you" thanks to the media and sue-conscious agencies. Breathing pure oxygen can kill you also. Drinking purified water can (under certain conditions) poison you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Wesley S Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:35 AM He's 5 so he's a little past the nursing stage. But he is just getting over a sinus infection/cold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:38 AM Oops! I read 5 MONTH old! Pardon me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:48 AM I agree with MMario--on their own, raw eggs are a good food source. But if you're buying them in the grocery store and they've been handled by the factory folks, then the middle men who store and deliver them, and then the store staff, there are just too many opportunities for contamination to get to the shells and you don't know exactly how old they are. If the shells are contaminated the contents can be come contaminated when the shell is cracked. It's the industrial handling of food that compromises it. It isn't just eggs. I remember going to eat in a Lebanese restaurant in NYC with a Lebanese friend, and when she asked about raw kibbe (lamb) she was told it is very difficult to get the fresh meat that meets health department standards to serve raw. If you want to eat raw eggs, find a good local source of eggs or find a health food store that may have local farmers deliver directly. (Whole Foods or Central Market down here in Tarrant County). If you want to eat healthier in general, try to eat things that come from no further than about 250 miles radius of you. It means more seasonal eating of some foods, but it also means supporting local growers and getting fresher food. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:01 PM I have eaten a two (raw) eggnog everyday for many years. I also always make caeser salad in the time honoured way, using raw eggs. Check with your local health service and ask how many people have become ill from eating them. Our modern view of the world is that we are either going to die from something or we are allergic to evrything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Charmion Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:06 PM Don't fight her; it's not worth it. Insist that the shells be washed before cracking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Wesley S Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:09 PM Guest - Thanks - Of course as an adult your immune system should be able to handle a different diet than an ailing five year old. When he gets to be an adult he's welcome to eat whatever he likes - including haggis. But for for now I plan to have another serious talk with his grandmother and lay down the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM I do not think eating raw eggs has any thing to do with immunity. Also, I have been eating them all of my life. But if that is a hill you wish to fight on, go for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Liath Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:16 PM My other half used to eat them - including the shells! I was brought up eating food with raw egg in - but we kept our own hens, so we knew they were healthy, and that the eggs were fresh. Bearing in mind that I don't know you - or your mother - my advice would be to try to replace the egg for her. She thinks it will make the child strong - is there anything else she could give him for the same effect? I know my parents used to swear by revolting stuff like hot bovril ;-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Rapparee Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:19 PM If the threat of salmonella bothers you, you can get raw eggs, raw yolks, and raw whites that have been pre-sterilized. They're in the dairy cases of the food stores out here. I want to make some egg nog this coming Season and I'll use them. But as for eating raw eggs -- no, I've not done it and I don't intend to start. Give me an omelet or scrambled or a fritatta or a souffle anytime, though (I don't like fried eggs, however). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: John MacKenzie Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:27 PM Aren't Mother in Laws a bigger source of disaffection than raw eggs are a source of infection? Mind you I'd be mad too if someone knowing that you disapprove, goes behind your back to do that which you disapprove of. I will say this though, I've never seen so many FAT babies around as there are these days, it may be one of the reasons for the increase in obese teenagers. When you start off training a child to eat too much it will continue to do so. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Bunnahabhain Date: 29 Nov 05 - 12:34 PM Good reason to eat raw eggs? Fresh, home-made mayonnaise, and plenty of dishes which use eggs very lightly cooked, certainly not enough to lawyer-proof the chef. Raw egg and milk to drink? Strange habit... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 05 - 01:04 PM ohhhhhhhhhhhh , homemade mayo. Yhe best reason to eat raw eggs. I'm off to make some right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:25 PM Salmonella in an egg is deposited there while it's on its way through the chicken, before the shell is formed. Cracked shells can let stuff on the outside in, but the salmonella bacteria can already be there. Here's the HTML version of a PDF file containting more information about eggs and salmonella than most people would want: Risk Assessments for Salmonella Enteritidis in Shell Eggs. (You can get to the PDF from there. Basically, it's egg roulette. Most eggs are probably fine. It's the one that isn't that will be the problem. They make pasteurized raw eggs (mixed up), or you can tell your MIL to stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: lady penelope Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:57 PM The worst source of 'pre - infected' eggs is battery farms. If your mother in law insists on feeding people raw eggs (I don't actually recommend it, but I work in a microbiology lab - you can tend to get a bit overly careful....) try and get proper free range, organically produced eggs, as fresh as possible. Then wash the eggs thoroughly (with soap and water - or 70% alcohol if you really want) before breaking them open. Just to cheer you up......Your son is just as capable of picking up salmonella from 100 other places that you walk round every day - and considering what 5 year olds think is a good idea to stick in their mouths, it's a wonder they aren't permanently ill!!!! Good luck with whatever you decide to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: GUEST,Richard H Date: 29 Nov 05 - 05:43 PM As a boy I used to suck raw eggs nearly every day. Never had a problem. You punch a little hole at either end and go for it. The whole shells are then good for painting faces. Sometimes if the egg wasn't fresh when you found it, it might be addled or have a chicken in it. After sucking a while, you realised, though. It's probably no more dangerous than things boys do when they meet girls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Ebbie Date: 29 Nov 05 - 05:52 PM Not aimed at you, Wesley, truly- but about the strange phenomena we live with these days. A professor told us that there is "no way he would eat homecanned foods". My question is "Where do you think the laboratories learned to can? Long before we had a canning - and marketing - industry, homemakers were preserving food. I once read a 1924 cook book. In a new health and hazards industry, they proclaimed the "proper" way to prepare foods. A couple dicta that I remember: "fresh garden peas": boil 20 minutes "whole onion": bake 1 hour then let the fire die down and bake 1/2 hour more |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Bill D Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:42 PM you 'probably' won't get e. coli in your raw or rare hamburger either, but DO NOT CHANCE IT! Salmonella is not nice.... tell her the boy will get 'almost' as strong with cooked eggs....and tell her it's YOUR choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: robomatic Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:38 PM Slightly off topic, but then again, ran into a home-maker's manual from the mid 50's. Incorporated in the last chapter are the do's and don'ts of dealing with a nuclear attack. I think raw eggs are by and large safe and the salmonella threat, while not zero, is low. Else there would be salmonella statistics... And you can find the salmonella statistics at: wrongdiagnosis dot com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: hesperis Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:01 PM Overprotection much? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: JohnInKansas Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:37 PM The link provided by Jeri (29 Nov 05 - 04:25 PM) to a search result is browser specific and won't load for me. It's a hazard of posting links to search results rather than to the specific pages where the results appear. I think I've tracked the innards of the link to what was intended, and found one of the better resources on the subject, quite possibly even the one(s) intended. At US Department of Agriculture Food Safety and Inspection Service, Risk Assessments, you'll find an index (html) to "Risk Assessment Reports" by this agency. Near the bottom of the page, there are two reports on Salmonella risk assessment. The last "completed" report is at Salmonella Enteritidis Risk Assessment, Shell Eggs & Egg Products (Jun 12, 1998). This link is to an html page, but all other "downloadables" at this site appear to be .pdf only. As the above report is a bit "dated," I'd suggest looking, if interest compels you, at the newer draft report: Draft Risk Assessments of Salmonella Enteritidis Shell Eggs and Salmonella spp. in Egg Products (Oct 22, 2004) The link for the draft report takes you to an html index listing of, and with links to, the 21 separate sections of the report that can be downloaded as .pdf files. The total download, if you want them all is about 13 MB. The "Basic Document" (13 separate downloads) is about 208 pages, and the "Annexes" are somewhat larger. Note that this is a "draft" report. This may mean: a.) Peer reviews and Public Comments have not been incorporated. b.) The Senators haven't told us yet what has to be expunged to satisfy their contributing lobbyists. Take your pick, although the report does appear to me to be pretty well done. I haven't read it all (yet), but in the "Risk Assessment Part 2:" I noted: "Because of this discovery, USDA in 1970 developed regulations that required the pasteurization of all egg products. Since passage of those regulations, egg products have not been identified as a source of Salmonella illness in humans.." Two interpretations of this statement are possible, of course: a.) There haven't been significant Salmonella infections in humans. b.) The USDA didn't notice that there have been Salmonella infections in humans. This draft study revisits the situation and appears to support (a). I was unaware that pasteurization has been the standard practice in the US (for USDA inspected eggs). It apparently is a rather "critical" process, as the pasteurization temperature of 140F that's commonly specified is quite close the the 145F that another source cites as the "congealing temperature" for the egg whites. Those in other parts of the world may wish to inquire whether pasteurizing is used in their markets, as it could significantly affect decisions on what individuals feel safe in eating. This report speculates that the pasteurization will kill most of the salmonella originally in eggs from infected hens, but may also provide conditions more favorable to rapid growth of the remaining organisms if proper storage is not maintained. This report, and other sources, repeat the statistic that only about one in 20,000 eggs is internally "infected" with Salmonella. It should be noted that this does not mean no salmonella, just that the number of infecting cells is below a specified (very low) limit. I haven't gotten far enough into this report to be sure, but I would assume that it reports the same result as others, that the initial salmonella content is very much less important than storage conditions, since any condition that permits growth of the salmonella organism rapidly wipes out any effect of how much was there to start. Current egg mass-production facilities (in the US) apparently have a vacine for the most common one of the two Salmonella strains (Salmonella Enteritidis) affecting humans, so massive use of antibiotics is no longer required for the reduction of salmonella. A vaccine for the currently less common strain (S. typhimurium) apparently seems to be still in "approval" but is used in some places. Prior widespread antibiotic use for salmonella, and perhaps continuing use for other infectious organisms, has produced "resistant" salmonella strains, but alternative antibiotic treatments remain – at least for now – available, and appear to be effective when needed. (It apparently is the less common S. typhimurium that's of most concern with respect to antibiotic resistance.) The bottom line here perhaps is that there is no real reason to expect a significant Salmonella presence in "USDA Inspected" eggs as shipped from producers. The qualifying caveat is that eggs provide a very favorable medium for the growth of Salmonella (and many other organisms); and there are virtually no animal food products completely free from Salmonella, so some external contamination by the time one sees them in the cooler is very likely. Proper storage at all times prior to use is critical. (One FAQ from the Washington State Ag people recommends that any egg left at room temperature for 2 hours or more should be discarded. They "weasel" a bit by adding "or cooked very thoroughly" if it "still looks good.") If the hope is to discourage MIL from feeding raw eggs to the kid, it's possible that she might be more receptive to the advice commonly given in the mid 1950s that raw egg given to the very young may cause an allergy to eggs. That opinion was fairly prevalent in a time when she might have been more receptive to "new concepts" and she might remember hearing about it. The counter to that argument, however, is that excluding all "immune system challenges" to children while their immune systems are developing may cause much more severe immune response problems later. One of the better inputs for this one was the apparently well documented report that children in households with pets prior to age 2 have much fewer asthmatic and other "immune related" problems. And that "the polio epidemic of the '50s was caused by Sweden's installation of indoor plumbing."(?) No easy decisions. I'm still reading. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:20 PM Sorry - I didn't realize the link was browser specific. Here is the file I was trying to link to. Please don't read 'egg products' as 'shell eggs'. You want the section entitled Exposure Assessment of Salmonella Enteritidis in Shell Eggs. (Not that there's a whole lot of difference.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:35 PM In Australia, eggs are shipped and stored in shops at room temperature (below 30degC). Never heard of them being 'pasteurised'. Every time I walk down the aisle, they go past my eyes though... Don't hear much about salmonella in raw eggs here though. Incidentally, sale of eggs 'privately' used to be 'discouraged', but that was before the 'opening of Australian markets to competition'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Peace Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM Show this pic to the child and he'll never eat anything your MIL gives him again. Raw Egg on Rice on Flickr - Photo Sharing! Google that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: GUEST,Boab Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM Raw eggs and milk every morning for years---till I threw it back one day---I got a bad'un! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: JohnInKansas Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:02 AM Jeri - Your last link is the one that I got to when I "disassembled" your original link, but only includes the 9 page Introduction. I backed out of there to get back to USDA FSIS and then searched on the site for title fragments from the intro. For the whole report, the link above [Draft Risk Assessments of Salmonella Enteritidis Shell Eggs and Salmonella spp. in Egg Products (Oct 22, 2004)] should get you to where all of it can be seen. The "Exposure Assessment in Shell Eggs" downloads in two parts, with a separate download for "Exposure Assessment in Egg Products." I'm glad it was the same stuff you had in mind. It seems to be one of the best recent papers on the subject. An additional fairly interesting paper is a similar "draft" report from WHO, although it is more "method" and "promise" than real conclusions. Extracts from the WHO draft, with comments, are Annex I of the above FSIS report, and give much more info than I found in the WHO draft itself. Good stuff. And sorry for the length of my rantings, but I got sort of interested... John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: JohnInKansas Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:14 AM Foolestroupe - In the early thru mid '50s, relatives on the farm collected eggs for the local market. They were kept at "cool room temperature" for up to about a week before delivery to the local cold storage (the locker plant in local speak) for whatever further routing occured. One of the "rules" of collection was that an egg should never be washed prior to use. The shell is porous, which is how the embryo breaths, but if collected soon after laying, the mucous "seals" it and retards spoilage by preventing air from diffusing through the shell. (One must assume that the hen "setting" on the eggs probably scuffed the mucous off enough to allow the chicks to develop.) Sometime about mid 1950s the plant started insisting that the farmers "clean off the chickenshit" and dip the eggs in a dilute "waterglass" (sodium/potassium silicate, I believe) solution to "re-seal" the shells. I wonder if something of the same sort of treatment (i.e. the w.g. dip) is used down under??? It did seem to permit fairly extended room temp storage, up to at least 3 or 4 weeks, without detectable - by our innards - effect. And a "washed" fresh egg, by my own tests then, did spoil much more rapidly. I had occasion to wish for a gallon or so of the waterglass solution for another purpose recently, but the best I could find was about $15 (US) per ounce in 1/2 ounce bottles. (It's the same stuff people used to dump in their auto radiators to plug the leaks.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: John MacKenzie Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:13 AM Funny that when an egg broken into a leaking car radiator can provide a temporary 'get you home' repair. Maybe one should throw in the shell as well!! G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 30 Nov 05 - 04:19 AM The old sodium silicate had lots of 'folk' uses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: Jeri Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:30 AM I used to (off and on for 18 years) inspect eggs coming in to military commissaries. Besides candling them and checking (pun that no one will get except maybe John) the shells, we used to take a temperature and look at the paperwork for the USDA inspection done at the processing plant. Occasionally, somebody would want to turn away a shipment because the eggs were too warm. Upon further investigation, one discovered the USDA inspector had found them a bit warmer, and the eggs were VERY fresh. They wouldn't have been at the 'correct' temperature unless they came out of chickens with refrigerator butts, and we didn't have any of those at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: lady penelope Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:35 PM I don't know how it works in the States, but in the UK we do have a problem with eggs being a potential source of salmonella. It has to do with what we feed our chickens, namely, other chickens..... Mostly this is picked up from chicken faeces on the shell (as I said battery farms are the worst for this sort of thing due to the dreadful conditions the birds are kept in). We use eggs, in our lab. to make a growth media for culturing Tuberculosis. As salmonella is quite happy to grow in this media as well as yer average egg, we take the precaution of washing the eggs to lessen the chances of contaminating the media before we get to inoculate it with a potential T.B. sample. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Eating raw eggs From: JohnInKansas Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:29 PM lady p That you can use eggs without something like pasteurizing to kill salmonela inside the egg supports the conclusion that the incidence of internal infection must be quite low. As the requirement for heat treating them for USDA approval snuck in without being generally known, it is of course possible that your egg supplier is doing something similar. The use of radiation for "sterilizing" eggs appears to be another USDA approved method, but so far as I've heard is not in use except in a very few "test market" areas. Public acceptance seems to be a problem. Once the eggs are in the lab, washing to remove the external contamination won't be a problem, since (hopefully) your lab is clean enough to provide no new contamination routes. The caveat against washing only means that if you wash them all at once when you bring them home from the store, before storing them, they may "spoil" a bit faster than if you waited until you're ready to crack one for breakfast. If you find one with an obvious "dooby" attached, fine steel wool (dry) was the recommended method of removal, and it was suggested (by the buyer) that ones that really needed cleaning should be kept at home and used fairly quickly. And the "spoilage" that might occur wasn't just the possible growth of organisms inside the egg if air is admitted. The breakdown of egg components (chemical aging?) was said to be more rapid with the shell's pores opened, and that can render them rather "unappetizing" even though they're still safe. Another madate from those who bought from the farmers was that the eggs must always be in the crate with the pointy end down. The small gas pocket in the egg is in the "round" end, and storing them with the gassy end down was said to stress the internal membranes and cause more rapid deterioration of the egg. This rule must be ignored for modern supermarket eggs, as the producers have selectively bred hens that lay "round eggs" so that the eggs will roll easily down the delivery chutes and directly into the crates (randomly oriented, of course). It's nearly impossible to tell one end from t'other on most current US supermarket eggs, except of course by candling them. John |
