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Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio

Once Famous 30 Nov 05 - 09:25 PM
GUEST 30 Nov 05 - 09:28 PM
Rapparee 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM
Once Famous 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM
Once Famous 30 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM
Cluin 30 Nov 05 - 09:34 PM
GUEST 30 Nov 05 - 10:43 PM
frogprince 30 Nov 05 - 11:13 PM
DonMeixner 30 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM
theballadeer 01 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM
jimmyt 01 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM
Once Famous 01 Dec 05 - 11:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM
jimmyt 02 Dec 05 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Martin gibson 02 Dec 05 - 12:18 PM
wordfella 02 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Val 02 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM
wordfella 02 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM
pdq 02 Dec 05 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Val 02 Dec 05 - 02:30 PM
wordfella 02 Dec 05 - 02:53 PM
pdq 02 Dec 05 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Val 02 Dec 05 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 02 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM
Stephen L. Rich 02 Dec 05 - 06:11 PM
jimmyt 02 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM
Once Famous 03 Dec 05 - 12:49 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM
theballadeer 03 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 03 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 05 - 04:15 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM
Big Mick 04 Dec 05 - 12:47 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 01:12 PM
jimmyt 04 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 01:25 PM
pdq 04 Dec 05 - 04:00 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM
JennyO 04 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM
Bobert 04 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 10:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 04 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM
pdq 04 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 04 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 04 Dec 05 - 11:48 PM
Once Famous 04 Dec 05 - 11:57 PM
theballadeer 05 Dec 05 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 05 Dec 05 - 12:25 AM
Big Mick 05 Dec 05 - 09:26 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Dec 05 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 05 Dec 05 - 01:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 05 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 05 Dec 05 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 05 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM
Dead Horse 05 Dec 05 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Annonny Mouse 05 Dec 05 - 06:55 PM
jimmyt 05 Dec 05 - 10:07 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM
Once Famous 05 Dec 05 - 11:20 PM
Bobert 05 Dec 05 - 11:44 PM
Joe Offer 06 Dec 05 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Martin gibson 06 Dec 05 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 06 Dec 05 - 05:28 PM
SunnySister 06 Dec 05 - 06:19 PM
GUEST 07 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM
Joe_F 07 Oct 09 - 06:15 PM
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Subject: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:25 PM

I have heard that there is some kind of rift between these two folk groups. It seems two former Limeliters are now in the Kingston Trio and that one Trio member was fired and replaced with someone who quit the Limeliters to go to the Kingston Trio.

Anyhone have any details?


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:28 PM

Researching an article for National Enquirer?


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM

Haven't heard a word. Sorry.

(I was in Chicago over the Tgiving days. Forget the turkey, eat the hot dogs! Yeah!)


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM

Yeah, it will be run after the naked pictures of your mother.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM

You....Mr. Martin....are an Id-jet!!!!

PLEASE!!! provide sources....person/publication, date/time/year, location, even a "he said, she said, they said" with time stamp.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM

It's Mr. Gibson to you Gargle breath. I'm looking for the same info you are because inquiring minds want to know.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:34 PM

Shades of that whole Poco/Eagles thing.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:43 PM

Mr. Martineee, I believe Mr. Gargoyleee is challenging you on the original source of your spurulous statement. In other words, he presented a "challenge" to put-up, or shut-up. Libel cases can cross international borders. You may have less than the coat on your back but even it can be removed to let you shiver in the cold December of your "Winter of Discontent" if you cannot respond to the demands of authentication for your sources. You are not a journalist, and you state that "you have heard"....but both groups involved have outstanding , star-status, reputations. Dance, prance, around but someone, with legal backing, is ready to "call-your-bluff."


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 11:13 PM

The "Kingston Trio" hasn't really been the Kingston Trio for nearly 40 years anyhow. I have no idea if anything is left of the Limelighters except a hand-me-down name, either.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 11:39 PM

Just go to The Limeliters and Kingston Trio's respective sites. Everything is laid out for you there. The current KT has no original members. George Grove is the closest with the other two members both being former Limeliters but not original members. The Limeliters still has Alex Hasilev, a founder, and two others whom I do not know.

If there ever was a rift it is now mended I'd say.

Don


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: theballadeer
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

No...there is a rift...with the current version. It comes up on the Kingston Crossroads message board. And it is pretty much as stated above. 2-replacement Limeliters left the group. But firt to join Glen Yarbourgh's (sp) folk reunion. Then Bob Shane (last original Kingston Trio (KT) in the group) got very sick and Bill Zorn former replacement Limeliter (and replacement KT from the 70's) joined or rejoined KT. Then Bob Haworth KT replacement from the late 80's and again in late 90's is unceremoniously fired and his replacement is the other replacement Limeliter Rick Dougherty. Alex Hasilev (as stated) is only surving and active member of either group.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM

I saw them in Concord NH a few months ago with Groves and Hayworth but it would not suprise me if they had some additional changes. Not too cohesive at that morph. The Shaw Brothers opened for them and in my opinion they were much better than the KT 3 at that time


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 11:43 PM

Shove it, Guest. You lose.

Thank you, Don and TheBalladeer. I figured there was some truth to what I "heard"


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

Will Mitch and Mickey kiss in the last frame?

can't wait!


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 09:05 AM

Why all the anomosity? This thread was asking a legitimate thread about folk music and to many people it is their only contact to folk music. I know many of you elitists here don't consider it folk music but that seems to be a debate that will never end. I won't go back through how many of you actually came to the folk music via groups like Kingston Trio, Limeliters, Brothers Four and Peter, Paul and Mary. Sure it is commercial but if you were to survey America about what comes to mind when you say folk music, I bet these names would come up in a much larger percentage than some of the more "purist" ones.

To me, music is music. You either like it or you don't. If you don't like it one option is to keep quiet about it. Another option is to politely disagree. The third, which seems to be what gets taken here in mudcat a lot is to yell from the treetops "THIS CRAP IS NOT FOLK MUSIC"   Which seems about as socially acceptable as someone at a cocktail party standing up on a chair and saying"HEY EVERYONE THIS   SALSA IS NOT AUTHENTIC! IT HAS EXTRA INGREDIENTS THAT ARE NOT IN REAL SALSA!" At the same time most people are enjoying the salsa, or not but keepng their mouth shut about it.

I just went to the Getaway in MAryland. I had a ball there. Ded some of the music suit my personal tastes?   No. There were slots of genres that I loved, some that I enjoyed for the historical perspective, some I clearly didn't quite get. But I had the sense to keep it to myself. For an evening performance I joined a couple of other Mudcatters, Allan C and Janie to perform an old Kingston Trio number. WHen it was announced I heard the naysayers moaning in the audience. Then I heard 200 people join in on the choruses. I know I am rambling here but, damn, why don't we all open our eyes a bit? We may be surprised at what happens with an open mind.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 12:18 PM

A great response JimmyT!

The naysayer/elitists have always been the worst thing about the whole folk music scene. The moaning and groaning is laughable. They just don't get it the folk music for MOST is not about politics, navel gazing, changing the world, or anything other then rearing back your head and having a good time singing.

to them, If I had a hammer, I'd hammer some sense into them.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: wordfella
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

I've been gone a while. I see Martin's back.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

I'm remembering the chorus of a song, that I THINK may have been done by the Limelighters, which seems appropriate. A cursory search of DT didn't yield the result, but that's probably because I'm not searching right.

Anyway, it seems apropos...the ballad was of a 4-man folk group with disparate political views. Chorus was something like:

The guy on the left was...on the Right
and the guy in the middle was... on the Left
and the guy on the left was... in the middle
and the guy in the rear... (this line changed from chorus to chorus - such things as "was a Methodist" or "burned his driver's license")

Anybody know this song, & who it's by?


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: wordfella
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

Johnny Cash recorded that when his label was positioning him as a relevant folkie. '67 or so.

Not sure about the 'Liters.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: pdq
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 01:29 PM

Believe it or not, this was done by Johnny Cash.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 02:30 PM

Johnny Cash... yeah, maybe that voice could fit with what I remember hearing. I'm old enough to be developing a fair case of CRS disorder, and I only heard the song a few times, so the memory is a bit fuzzy.

Didn't have it on a recording in my own collection & never bothered to learn it. Anybody know a title or the rest of the lyrics?


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS ON THE LEFT
From: wordfella
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 02:53 PM

Here ya go:
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/cash-johnny/the-one-on-the-right-is-on-the-left-2223.html

Artist/Band: Cash Johnny
Lyrics for Song:
The One On The Right Is On The Left
Lyrics for Album: The Essential Johnny Cash

There once was a musical troupe
A pickin' singin' folk group
They sang the mountain ballads
And the folk songs of our land

They were long on musical ability
Folks thought they would go far
But political incompatibility led to their downfall

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear was a Methodist

This musical aggregation toured the entire nation
Singing the traditional ballads
And the folk songs of our land
They performed with great virtuosity
And soon they were the rage
But political animosity prevailed upon the stage

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear burned his driver's license

Well the curtain had ascended
A hush fell on the crowd
As thousands there were gathered to hear The folk songs of our land
But they took their politics seriously
And that night at the concert hall
As the audience watched deliriously
They had a free-for-all

Well, the one on the right was on the bottom
And the one in the middle was on the top
And the one on the left got a broken arm
And the guy in the rear, said, "Oh dear"

Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group
Don't go mixin' politics with the folk songs of our land
Just work on harmony and diction
Play your banjo well
And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself

Now, the one on the left works in a bank
And the one in the middle drives a truck
The one on the right's an all-night deejay
And the guy in the rear got drafted
    written by "Cowboy" Jack Clement

    Lyrics posted from the cited link.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: pdq
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 03:11 PM

Sorry for cross-posting.

The song was written by "Cowboy" Jack Clement, a fine mandolin player as well as songwriter, singer, producer. Also recording engineer at Sun Studios during early Cash, Elvis, Orbison (et al) period.

It was on Cash's "Everybody Loves A Nut" from 1966. The song is supposed to have been inspired by the legendary fights between Bud and Travis.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:10 PM

That's it! Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 04:50 PM

Nice to see "Cowboy" Jack Clement mentioned. He is one of my all-time favorite classic country music songwriters.

I perform at least 3 songs that I know he wrote.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:11 PM

Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
Live coverage on ESPN2!


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

no matter how "smarmy" and commercial these two groups are, along with the Brothers Four and The New Christy Minstrals and many many others of this type, I still love to hear them. They had energy and harmony and lots of other things that I enjoy listening to. Perhaps they don't have the social commentary of Seeger or Guthrie, but I still enjoy them much like I like reading classics of AMerican or English Literature but still enjoy reading a John Grisham occasionally. I also enjoy being a part of an audience that is having fun and the Kingston Trio audience is having a ball.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM

What a peculiar thread of un-verified MUSH.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Joe ... as the harvest is completed ... and the DT fades into the permanent archives of "what-ever-land" and the threads in sieve of sifting sands sorts for songs of significance....

Please permit your threads of MG to fade into an abscurity only recorded, and with rare examples of his nasty-precene within the mirror snap-shot - on the LOC archieve.

Sincerely.
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 12:49 PM

Joe,

Gargoyle, I am really so glad that I make you so uncomfortable. Obviously, it's just so easy to do.

Joe, I ask that you ignore this moron's nonsense. It's not his forum, either.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM

Would you kids play nice or take it outside in the schoolyard. Jeesh.

I had heard that Haworth left the group, but I did not hear that he was "fired". Bob's website says that he left the group to work on his solo career. OF course we can read into it what we wish, and I have no knowledge of the gossip.   Curious though.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: theballadeer
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM

Read it in Bob's own words...

Nick


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM

New Crusty Nostrils! I'm anti not proboscis.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM

when does this fight take place, is anybody taking bets?


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 05 - 04:15 PM

For the record, here's what Bobby Haworth said on his message board on October 12, 2005:
    Ross, it's great to hear from you! I hope we keep in touch as time goes on.

    What happened, you ask? Well, as you guessed, when Shane left the whole group dynamic changed. I've know Bill Zorn since his New Christy Minstrel days back in the 1960's - thought we had a good friendship. But several months before Bob's heart incident George and I had gone to Bill (he and Rick Dougherty had just left The Limeliters and were working on putting the show with Glenn Yarbrough together) and asked if he might someday consider taking Shane's place if he decided to retire. His response was that he was so loyal to Rick that he couldn't contemplate leaving him high and dry - so could we make it The Kingston Quartet? Well, we didn't think that would work, although I find it interesting that some folks have subsequently suggested that as a viable option. Anyway, my take on this situation is that Bill's loyalty to Rick and his enamorment with Rick's vocal abilities led him to work on Shane over time to get me ousted and put Rick in my place. There's no disputing the fact that Rick has a beautiful voice, but things were going fine as they were and the saddest thing about the whole matter was the way it was handled. I was given very little notice on this and probably would not have found out as early as I did had it not been for my walking in on a conversation that George and Bob were having on July 4th. As I entered the room I detected that talk suddenly switched gears and I had my suspicions that something was up. Why couldn't they have just come out and told me that they wanted to make a change? It was all arranged behind my back and then I guess they planned to spring it on me after our last gig in July. It really put our financial situation in a tailspin as it was, but had I not known about it until nearly a month later we would have really been in trouble. As it was, Meri managed to do some fiscal two-steps that at least bought us some time to get back on our feet. So, sadly, I don't have many nice thoughts about a couple of the key players in this.

    But - we're on to better things. On the upside, I can now walk on stage and sing whatever the hell music I want to. I can now do my own material, play any brand of guitar and do the show the way I want to do it. As wonderful as it was to be a member of such a seminal group, there were some restrictions that made it, in the end, just a gig. Now I have the freedom to be creative in my own way. Also, our work for Parkinson's has proven to be an endeavor that we can be proud of. Through our fund-raising efforts we hope to drive research toward a cure in the next few years. Our many friends who have Parkinson's are progressing through the disease and it's a sad thing to see. We want to do anything we can to make them well.


I have to say that to my mind, the Limeliters and the Kingston Trio no longer exist, and they can't be put back together. I saw the Kingston Trio two or three times in the late 1980's and early 1990's, when Bob Shane was still around - but it still didn't seem like the Kingston Trio to me. The Limeliters survived the loss of Glenn Yarbrough and still did quite well with their music - but I think the loss of Lou Gottlieb finished them off. I think Alex Hasilev is a wonderful performer, but I don't think he can continue the Limeliters on his own, without Gottlieb.


I've received complaints about the combative posts from Gargoyle, Martin Gibson, and others in this thread. There's good information here, so I don't want to shut down the thread. Boys, please behave. Show us that you can actually carry on a logical discussion, and we'll all be impressed - and grateful. Name-calling doesn't add to the discussion.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM

Well, Joe.

Take a look at who started the combativeness. I started this thread looking for some legititmate varification, and then you have Gargoyle jumping in and making quite a fool of himself doing so.

When I responded to this ignorance, he comes back for more which he kind of deserves. So don't look at me. He wanted proof and the Balladeer and yourself helped give it to him and I thank you for it. I would like to keep this thread alive as I have a defenate interest in these groups and folk music from the "scare" era much more than I do of what the so-called purists with beards and bellys think it is.

As far as combative posts go, this whole web forum is completely full of them and this thread certainly should not be singled out by the whiners. Don't like what I or someone else wrote or expressed, why don't you just ignore it? Grow up.
    Well, as I so often told my kids: I don't care who started it - I just want it to stop! Maybe that's not justice; but it's my job to keep the peace, not to referee. So, I stop the combat, without passing judgment. Just be civil, and don't call people names. That's all.
    As for me, I'm not taking sides with nobody.
    -Joe Offer, 5 December-


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 12:47 PM

A couple of qualifiers here. First, I have quarrelled with Martin Gibson many times when I thought he was crass, or just being nasty. Second, I have quarrelled with Gargoyle many times when I thought he was being crass or nasty. This makes me an equal opportunity quarreller with those being crass or nasty.

Martin didn't do a thing wrong here. Folks, it shows a lack of depth when you don't recognize change. Martin started a thread about two of the quintessiental 'NAMES' in our world. He simply asked a question. The combativeness was not started by him. And when someone else started, he reacted in a rather subdued way when compared to his earlier postings. There is no need for Joe, or any of us, to admonish him to behave. He is, and has been as of late, unless attacked.

Don't mistake me here. A return to the old ways will lead me to do what I have been doing right along. But failure to recognize change is just as bad.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 01:12 PM

Mick, Thank you. It seems more and more are seeing it your way. The double standard of Mudcat is showing through clearer and clearer and the culprits are becoming more and more visible.

Now Joe needs to stop bending over for his favorites and pals.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

hear! hear! I agree with Mick completely. Martin can't seem to get a break, and certainly anyone who offers a thread related to these "Commercial" folk groups seems to be setting himself up for the wrath of the purists.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 01:25 PM

Thanks to you too, jimmyT.

The so-called purists are pseudo-eliteists out of touch with much.

I have hung in there tough because of the double stanbdard.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: pdq
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 04:00 PM

I never fail to read posts by Gargoyle, Claymore, Clinton Hammond AND Martin Gibson. They are The Four Horsemen of Mudcat and stand out as iconoclasts in a sea whiney sameness.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM

That's OK with me.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM

Well at least it ain't dull around here! As Mick and JimmyT and others have said, MG hasn't done anything wrong this time. A few minds need to open up a bit, although I suspect there's no hope for anonymous GUESTS.

As for gargle, who loves to be nasty, if he had read what Martin was asking a bit more carefully, he would have realised that he was ASKING for more information. It's very worthy to want to have facts, but he was missing the point.

Anyway, I'm glad somebody did come up with some information. These groups are a fond part of my teenagehood, so I'm interested.

Now on with the music.......

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM

Ahhh, firget both these groups...

As fir as I'm concerned the Poza Seco Singers outplayed the twe o' them combined and only had two 'er three albums...

Yeah, let the L-Liters and K-Trio fight it out fir 2nd place...

That's MO...

Bobert

p.s. But I still liked John Stewarts stuff... Much better than his ol' band's stuff...


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 10:23 PM

bobert, the Pozo Seco Singers only claim to fame was Don Williams, who not a bad singer, was about as exciting as watching jello set.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM

Wasn't Taylor Pie with the Pozo Seco Singers?   I've enjoyed some of her recordings.

I know of another woman who sang with a later incarnation of the Pozo Seco Singers - Amy Carol Webb.   She is a talented songwriter and performer who lives in Florida. Check her out if you have a chance.

The Limeliters released a great CD back in 2000 (a recent recording when you stop to think about their long history).   I felt it was one of their strongest recordings ever and it showed they are more than a simple nostalgia act.   Check out their version of Stan Roger's "White Squall". Wow!

A lot has been said about whether these groups should keep the name, especially since none of the original Kingston Trio are performing with the trio these days. Well,when a person has been with a group for nearly 30 years like George Grove has, then perhaps they do have a write to continue carrying the name.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: pdq
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM

The Country Gentlemen were contemporaries of both groups, having started one year before the Kingston Trio and three years before the Limeliters. They played the same college circuit at times and had a large following. The Gents musicianship kicked butt on all similar folk groups and their harmony singing was unequalled. So was their choice of material. They are closer in style to the Folk-pop groups than to Bluegrass where they are usually placed.

Pozo Seco Singers were electric Folk-rock. Like We Five and others, they are well past what can realistically be called Folk.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM

Bob Shane openly admits that the Kingston Trio were never "folk-singers".   He said all along that they were entertainers. Sure, they played folk songs, but they weren't trying to archivists, they were having fun with the music - the original intention of the songs when they were first written.

I agree, the County Gentleman were superior musicians, but you are comparing apples and bicycles. (an orange colored bicycle at that!)


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM

Ron, true George Grove has been with the Trio about 30 years or so, but he is still a hired hand, who has managed to hang on to a pretty good job. He is a fine musician and talent, but really gets out there and still imitates the "art" or recordings done before him when the Trio was a viable recording act.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:48 PM

That is a good point.   Unlike groups like the Limeliters, the Kingston Trio have done very little "legit" recording in recent years. Mostly live concert type recordings that repackage their hits.

I did get to emcee the Kingston Trio about 2 years ago when they played at a local theater. Shane was still with the group at the time. Grove and Haworth added several new songs, and it wasn't a bad show.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 11:57 PM

Maybe, they will add some Limeliters songs now!

To me, the Trio has become nothing more than a sanctioned tribute band now that Bob Shane has retired. The Kingston Trio is marketed as a brand name, like Coca-Cola or Band-Aids. It is an image and a reportoire and an act. I loved the original 2 incarnations and learned a lot from the great Nick Reynolds about singing harmony from those Capitol records.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: theballadeer
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 12:11 AM

I started a thread a while back on Bob Haworth's forum also stating that I too thought the Kingston Trio is now nothing more than a brand name. What started me ranting was that Tom Paxton and the all original memember Chad Mitchell Trio opened for the current (not one original member) Kingston Trio...which I thought and still think is just down right stupid.

Nick


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 12:25 AM

I sure do understand what Bob Haworth is saying when he describes the behind-the-back politics that was going down without him ever knowing it was happening---and how, after it's finally over, the great feeling of freedom that comes from being free to do what you want to do instrumentally or vocally without the compromises that inevitably one must make in a group dynamic.

Along those same lines, I was quite shocked when I realized the machinations going on when I was a host of the national NPR live concert show called the Flea Market. As a solo singer on the road, I was not use to the realities of dealing with probably a corporate situation sort of like that one. Up to that moment I had figured that NPR was better than that. Up to that time, the mid 1980s, as I've said, I'd been on my own and in charge of everything about my life within our folk music revival. I did my gigs, one by one, and went on from there. During and after those experiences, the hurt of being secretly schemed against by people I'd thought of as friends was palpable---but it faded--eventually. Then I gladly went back to being my own boss. And that has made all the difference.

And I must mention this: One thing thing I am not willing to let pass here is the sad ease with which some deride "purists and folk Nazis and traditionalists and collectors (and as someone here said) "pseudo-elitists who are out of touch with much"---! I have ignored these wrong diatribes whenever I can lately. I do suspect I will continue to strive do that as much as I possibly can. BUT, for what it's worth, I must say that you are denigrating and demeaning what many feel is the serious and important work done by so very many wonderful academicians and musicians and singers. If the fact that I, personally, am hurt by your doing these things means that I can and should count myself as one of those individuals----I must take this opportunity to say how proud I am to be on you enemies list.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:26 AM

Damn, Art, you shortstopped me. I was coming in with a very similar comment. I have always felt that groups like these were the portals used by folks like me to begin to understand folk music. They provide us with an entry into this amazing body of work collectively called folk music. Because of the Limelighters, Kingston Trio, PP&M, etc. my curiousity as to where this came from was aroused. And then I got to know the purists, elitists, etc (others words, not mine) and began to experience the incredible stories, yarns, feelings, indeed the human condition from other times. I have come to love the songs that I have found more than the ones that I heard from these groups.

I am a long way from what anyone could call a purist or elitist in my music. I just play what I like, and folks pay me to do that. But an awful lot of the music that folks pay me to sing came from folks like Art, and those that went before.

One last thing, thanks to these wonderful musicologists, I am now able to research the songs that I am looking for. I want to do a CD of songs that express the daily struggle of working folks to just get along. My arrangements will not be traditional, because I make everything I do reflect my take. But without these folks that some deride, I would not be able to do this research.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:20 AM

Well said Art!    I think the "problem" is that there is little respect between the commercial camps and the traditional camps.   Fans of each style tend to deride each other and hurl abuse.   

I have seen first hand how traditionalists will look down their nose at singer-songwriters.   I was at a festival once speaking with a gentleman who is a recognized collector of traditional music, mainly from the U.K. and Ireland.   When I mentioned a singer-songwriter, he abruptly stopped me and said he was not interested in that kind of music. Now, I certainly respect and appreciate the work of the purists, and my radio program probably leans towards that side. I do think the purists need to open up a bit and realize that folk music in the future will be different than it is today.

At the same time, I also think that some singer-songwriters should explore the roots a bit more and it will help them fashion more interesting songs. Folk has become a four letter word to some people, and that is a real tragedy.   American artists tend to neglect their folk heritage while I notice that the English, Scottish and Irish tend to embrace their roots and incorporate it in modern stylings.   Folk music is a living tradition and it is not meant to sit on a shelf in a museum. Singer-songwriters would do themselves a huge favor by studying the work of the collectors.

While it may be impossible to trace the folk process from some of the ballads that were collected in the past, it will be relatively easy to see the evolution of current songs as they are carried into the future - thanks to technology and the established work of collectors in the present.

Folklorists in the future will examine the styles and impact of the commercial groups like the Weavers (the original commercial folk group), the Kingston Trio, the Limeliters and the rest. There is a lot to be enjoyed and a lot to learn from their style of music. It should not be dismissed.

When I go to a buffet, I like to sample everything.   I won't fill up on the soup or the cheese tray. I always save room for desert. Music should be the same.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:03 PM

Mick and Ron,
All good points and insights. Valuable for me to hear.

Ron--If you sent the Gibson and Camp cassette back to me, I never got it. ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM

My sincere apologies Art. It has been a difficult couple of months. I PROMISE that I will get it back to you this week. Thanks again for all your help and generosity.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 03:56 PM

I assure you Art, the purist/elitist/ethnics are the ones with their noses in the air.

Many, from what I have experienced are snobs, and snobs are certainly not my friends, either.

Understand this. The put downs to the commercial folk scene started decades ago in the elitist Sing Out Magazine and by the likes of those who hated electric guitars, tenor banjos, and folk-artists on major recording labels who didn't give a rat's ass about politics. I assure you, musicologists are certainly not limited to the narrow mindedness of the lot who extol what is "pure" and what is not.

I have made it my business to stay away from the purist/elitists and have become a better singer, player, and most of all, entertainer for doing so. I know what I know about music, and that's plenty. But I've made more friends than you think and have bored hardly anyone with purist attitudes when I perform.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:17 PM

Oh and Art, take a look at where all of the negativity in this and other threads of this type comes from initially.

Looks sure like the elitists/purists/snobs to me.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:00 PM

Quite frankly, if they are both still producing foot stomping, thought provoking, or just plain easy listening music, who gives a sh*t?
Music is music, not a bloody political party.
Its a song/dance party for gods sake!


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Annonny Mouse
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:55 PM

Email Alex Hassilev if you want the scoop---Hayworth says he would answer questions and I guess you can get his email from their group website (Limes). That should answer MG's question.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:07 PM

Again, I tend to agree wot Martin on this, Art. I have heard almost no criticism of folk music "purists" since I have been coming here but an inordinate amount of criticism of the "commercial" groups.

I used the term purely as a reference, not as a term of denigration. I personally enjoy all types of folk music, whether it be solo,historical,singersongwriter, gospel, blues, whatever. But I still enjoy the sweet tight harmonies of these "commercial"groups also.

If you are referring to me as someone who has badmouthed the folks from these camps, I did not intend it to be such. SOrry if that is the case.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM

There are them as which think milk comes into existence encapsulated in cardboard containers and potatoes are found by probing the gravy.

I am hardly ethnic, since I didn't grow up in that background and, frankly, I take a dim view of city kids raised on Frank Sinatra and Barbra Streisand doing their damnedest to try to sound like they just rode into town with a load of parsnips (lightly veiled shot at early Bob Dylan and clones). Strikes me as kinda phony. I'm hardly a purist because I've taken a batch of voice and classic guitar lessons and studied music in college, and when I learn a song or ballad, I sometimes get several versions together and come up with a composite version. But when I advocate learning more about the songs than just the words and tune and finding out where it came from and what it's all about, I sometimes get accused of being "ethnic" or a "purist." Not quite! I think all of that helps in putting more into performing a song that a mere rote recitation. Works for me.

Sometimes when I hear a singer-songwriter drone on tunelessly for twenty minutes while staring into his or her navel, I tend to sigh. Then I think of some of the great stuff singer-songwriters like Gordon Bok write, I relax a bit. If it weren't for singer-songwriters, we wouldn't have much to sing. Many of the older songs and ballads we sing came from minstrels and troubadours, or some working stiff with an ear for stringing words together and putting them to either a ready-made tune or one they cobble together themselves. Singer-songwriters. So it's kinda silly to put them down, even when the vast majority of songs that many of them crank out sink like a rock. The best songs tend to hang around. Sometimes for centuries.

I've met a number of collectors and ethnomusicologists, and within my experience, they do tend to be purists. "You're not singing that right!" I heard one at the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival have a hissy-fit over the way Joan Baez slowed down a bit at the end of a ballad. Well, okay, fine. Sorry about that. But even though she didn't sing it quite the way it was done on the field recording, she did sing it beautifully and put the story across with panache.

If it weren't for people like these out collecting songs, and singer-songwriters putting them together in the first place, we city kids (including The Kingston Trio and The Limeliters) wouldn't have much to sing.

Bless 'em all! Listen to what they all say and learn all you can, but when you've done that, follow your own muse wherever it leads.   

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:20 PM

I'll go along with some of that, Don.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:44 PM

pdq,

No, the Pozo Seco Singers were NOT an electric folk group... You obviously haven't spent much time listenin' to their music which I would put up aginst anything that either the K-Trio or the L-Lighters ever did....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:34 AM

I think I'd say that the Limeliters improved when Glenn Yarbrough went elsewhere - it allowed Lou Gottlieb and Hassilev to show they were the brains behind the operation. My favorite replacement tenor for the group was Red Grammer, but Rick Dougherty is a close second.
I went to some wonderful Limeliters concerts in the 1990's (and to one really pathetic Glenn Yarbrough concert). The Kingston Trio concerts I attended in the 1990's were a disappointment - to me, the Kingston Trio is long dead. But now that Lou Gottlieb is gone, I don't know how the Limeliters can go on, either.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 04:44 PM

Glenn Yarbrough was the weakest part of the Limeliters.

He is the "warble" of the worst in folk music.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:28 PM

You still don't know the story do you MG? It isn't about former Limers joining the KT. Its a management thing not a person to person thing I think. Maybe you should drop Mr. Alex an email if youre really curious. No I didn't but I herd some tings eh? May the force be with ya.


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: SunnySister
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 06:19 PM

To add my five cents (it's been up'd due to inflation), I am a huge fan of Rick Dougherty and have seen him in both the Limeliters and the Kingston Trio- he has one of the best pure clear tenors I have ever had the pleasure of hearing.

I say that whatever names of these talented musicians use as a band to get make a living (and keep this style of music going), go to it!

I do agree that this style is a lot more than just music- there's entertaining humor that runs through along the same spirit as the Smother's brothers or the Austin Lounge Lizards (all different, I know, although they all use humor with or along side their music).

With all this said, I am very saddened to hear that Bobby Haworth believes he was treated badly. The music business is a business, yes, although after all these years these groups become family with younger members being adopted into the fold. I hope that some healing can be done within this particular family. A real shame with such wonderful and talented professionals.

Okay- I think that was more than my five cent share... thanks for reading... that's if you read this far :)

SunnySister


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

I loved when Mudcat was like this!


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Subject: RE: Limeliters vs. Kingston Trio
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:15 PM

If I'm the judge, the Kingston Trio wins. When I was a senior in 1957, there was a frosh in my student house who played one of their records incessantly. They seemed to be having fun. They sang "Jamaica Farewell", which I still like.

As to the Limeliters, to begin with there was that vulgar name. And then, sometime in the 1960s, I heard them sing Flanders & Swann's "Madeira" in such a way that it was not funny. That is quite an accomplishment.

YMMV.


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