BS: Condi Rice - not nice

Subject: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Stu
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:54 AM

From the BBC website:

"It is up to those governments and their citizens to decide if they wish to work with us to prevent terrorist attacks against their own country or other countries . . ."

Fine. I'm all for protecting our countries, but count me out of working with any religious fanatics blinded by ignorance and hatred and who claim to get their orders direct from 'God', be they Bush et al, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi (I don't think even this lunatic claims divine guidance direct from above) or the Taliban.

I'm not a big fan of torture either, so perhaps I may distance myself from people who do that too Ms Rice, such as your government?

Hypocrites, bigots and scumballs the lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM

Below is a running total of the U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq War. The number is based on Congressional appropriations.   
The War in Iraq Costs
$224,329,894,588

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM

As soon as they can get Jeb Bush appointed electoral returning and rgistration officer for Baghdad Central, the sooner they can hold their sordid little election, and get out of Iraq and let them kill each other.
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:36 PM

Just been watching Miss Rice on BBC TV denying that America sends prisoners to Eastern Europe to be tortured....She was less than convincing!!

Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks must be turning in their graves.
How can the American people thole these creatures?
What shame and indignities must they inflict upon you before you stand up and say "Enough"!!....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:52 PM

Thole?

I thought that thole pins were bits of boats. If you have a small-ish wooden boat you sometimes have two rigid pins sticking up out of the gunwhales. You put the oar between the two pins, in order to row.

So two thole pins make a rowlock (say it carefully)

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:09 PM

Old Scots word - means "stand", "bear", "put up with".

Akenaton - she could have taken you on a guided tour of every damn building in eastern Europe - to you she would still sound unconvincing.

I preferred the CNN description of the situation vis-a-vis 'secret flights' and 'secret prisons' - Short on facts and long on rumours.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:13 PM

She's a Republican and works for George Bush. What do Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks have to do with anything, other than that, like Condi, their skin tone was on the darker side of average?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Grelf
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:10 PM

Just shows what we ought to have known all along...you can't judge a person's worth by their skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:16 PM

From the Telegraph on-line. The Chinese leaders here are laughing up there sleeves. With Bush telling them to respect human rights and not arbitarily lock up people they suspect he is looking a complete prat,,,if he did not look like a complete prat before.

What is rendition?
(Filed: 05/12/2005)

• "Rendition" is bureaucratese for the CIA's practice of kidnapping terrorist suspects and sending them to secret detention centres out of the public eye and reach of the US justice system.

• It was authorised under President Bill Clinton in the mid-1990s to counter the threat of Islamist terrorism and overcome CIA difficulties in obtaining a conviction against suspects.

• It was expanded hugely under President George W Bush, who gave the CIA sweeping new powers after the September 2001 terrorist attacks.

• Since then the staff of the Counter-Terrorist Centre, the CIA branch which oversees renditions, is reported to have quadrupled to more than 1,000 people.

• More than 100 more people have disappeared or been "rendered" in the last few years, in addition to the detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay.

• The most common destinations are Egypt and Jordan, which are known to have tortured prisoners.

The US insists that it does not send people to countries which employ torture.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:38 PM

Thanks for the translation Teribus...these English are awful ignorant...full of rowlocks :0).

Miss Rice failed to throw any light on the reason for the mystery flights.
In these cases its often whats unsaid thats important.
In my OPINION torture now plays a large part in America's "war against terror"

Art Brooks.. For someone who grew to maturity during the Civil Rights Struggle, Miss Rice sure is "strange fruit".
Do YOU think Rev King or Rosa would be proud?
Do you think Condi ever figured in his "dream"?

These people are prepared to use torture as a weapon, now it is against Muslims. Soon it will be against you and I.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

I expect that Dr. King would have looked upon her (in the context of her individual opinions and actions) with disdain, and acknowledged the fact that everyone has an equal right to be an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM

Miss Rice is not an idiot.

Any person, especially a black person who supports current American foreign policy and the use of torture to further that policy, betrays the people who were lynched, burned, dragged behind vehicles ect to prevent them gaining their righful place in society...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:06 PM

Webster: idiot (3) a very foolish or stupid person. I will admit that she is not stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Kaleea
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM

Condi lie? What a wild notion that is. Er, uh, maybe it's what they call unverified unfactual informationing. Just like prez
dubblepew.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

"The US insists that it does not send people to countries which employ torture."

They sent a Canadian, Maher Arar to Syria to be imprisoned and tortured. We already know this is true.

http://www.maherarar.ca/mahers%20story.php

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM

Note that she is not denying that the go in for the legally vbery questionable process of "rendition" - just claiming that the countries to which prisoners are sent don't go in for torture.

At the same time the BBC summaries her as saying that "the US always respected the sovereignty of allies, abided by the law and did not allow torture." Quite how it is possible at one and the same time to respect the sovereignty of an ally, and to refuse to allow it to exercise that sovereignty, is unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: John O'L
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 08:40 PM

"...to work with us to prevent terrorist attacks against their own country..."

Invading another country, for any reason, does not prevent terrorism. It promotes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 10:49 PM

She IMO is as dangerous as I've seen, I can't explain fully here but you want a Bush but with brains (arguabley his saving grace I think he is is greedy, uncaring for poor etc but led so in some ways a fool), you have one there. She has the potential to make our Maggie Thatcher (another very clever woman) a saint.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 11:36 PM

Well, something that hasn't been broguth up is this. Condi is an oil-man/woman. Yeah, she, like Dich Cheney and Bush, ia an oil- man/woman...''I think we need to kkep that in context wheh we discuss what she does and what she says....

But second, sniff, she is so hot!!!

Too bad she is an oilman/woman...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 01:29 AM

Today C. Rice took off on her world "We do not torture" tour.

I wonder if anyone will fling some of the US torture photos on stage while she is speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:55 AM

Where does it say that Ms. Rice is an oil person.

I will stick with Condi - she has yet to give a nuke power plant to an unstable nation (No. Korea) as did Madeline Albright who later said "well ..... well, they tricked us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:58 AM

Unfortunately, Condi is nothing new.

There has always been people of every race who have worked against the best interest of their people.

IMO, the larger point is that Condi works against the best interest of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 08:52 AM

GUEST,A: Dr. Rice was a member of Chevron's Board of Directors for about ten years before going into the Bush Administration. She even had an oil tanker named after her (it was later renamed).

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:57 AM

Yes, its not race Azizi, it is the ability to misuse what you have (well put by you BTW - not working in the interests of humantiy) and Condi is clever (though maybe not caring with the ways she can use her brains...) IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:57 AM

Condoleezza Rice Visits CIA's Europe

CLANDESTINE CAMPS IN EUROPE "Everyone Knew What Was Going On in Bondsteel"
(interview with Alvaro Gil Robles, Human Rights Commissioner for the Council of Europe)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 02:26 PM

CHENEY RICE 08
Support our Torture

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:06 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/conditorture.jpg

by dh

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM

I think threads like this one are very important. It allows those who hate the world, are afraid of a female who is intelligent and can stand up for herself, or are maybe not as manly as they would like to be, to expose their suppressed desires.

Again, there are no Ladies posting here and as I once said elsewhere, the women seem to have a more open and honest approach to many of these matters.

I have yet to see what makes some of you think Ms. Rice is so dastardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:23 PM

...................IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:30 PM

I could be wrong, but I count three posts by women above (oh wait, your word was "ladies"). And while I've got the plumbing, I am actually pretty happy about my own low (as classified by some) level of "manliness". And I'm married to one of the most intelligent women you could ever meet. She's not the least bit scarey. Condi on the other hand...

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 03:41 PM

This woman is a good example of why we are hated around the world. Arrogance combined with imagined omnipotence. Sending prisoners to countries that do torture because we don't reminds me of the story of the old Quaker whos cow kept kicking the milk bucket over. Finally, he looked her in the face and said "Thou knowest that I am a Quaker, and cannot harm thee, but I can sell you to a Baptist and he will beat the shit out of thee."

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: patmc
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:11 PM

the usa turned up late for WW1
the usa turned up late for WW2
the usa turned up late for the war on Islamo-fascissm. It had been going on for years before 9/11. I had to get out of Algeria on account of it.
the usa never notices wars until they get a smack in the mouth themselves. Pure self interest- One of Bush's first moves in office was to scrap an OECD suggestion on controlling terrorist cash flow in offshore banking centers. Not so smart in the long run.

The cia's main reason for extraordinary rendition is that they are a crap spy agency who are in major panic mode trying to catch up on the terrs. Look at the first WTC bombing - how many intercepts did they have but were too uneducated to translate? go check it out.
The whole Abu ghraib nonsense was down to believing advice from Israel on prisoner disorientation. Having a naked girl interrogate a hyper-religous nut in guantanamo might work. Trying it with a secular ex-saddam army officer just might be a bit daft.

Dubya is fanatical about "loyalty" in his subordinates. So he is surrounded by third rate sycophants. They wouldn't even let him watch TV reports from New Orleans.
BTW where the heck is stormin' norman. Has he got Alzheimers or have they renditioned him too?

There is a very obvious reason for rendition. It is less to do with keeping the prisoners out of the US than giving "other" security forces a crack at them.
Long term the thing that noone will ever forgive the shrub and his cronies for is that they proved that the French WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG.
Long after this is over and Turkey has moved into Iraq and america are desperately trying to pay off the deficit the sodding french will be rubbing our noses in how much smarter than the rest of us they were. We will never here the end of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 08:24 PM

"Again, there are no Ladies posting here.."

You're wrong about that as you are wrong about your other points.

Sister Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

Oh well, I tried. It is apparent that I am not up to speed with you.
However, most IMO are just that.

I guess it is difficult to tell the girls from the boys here.

Sister Azizi, thanks for telling how wrong I am. Will I be able to retake the exam?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM

Top Terrorists Shipped out of Europe Prior to Rice Visit

American broadcaster ABC News revealed that two CIA secret prisons operating in Eastern Europe were shuttered in November after Human Rights Watch reported their existence in Poland and Romania. The prisoners held there are now being held in North Africa.



AP
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged Sept. 11 mastermind, is thought to be held in a secret CIA prison.
Even as US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visits Europe this week amid the CIA "extraordinary renditions" scandal, it appears that the transfer of terror suspects has continued.

In preparation for Rice's visit, 11 high-value al-Qaida suspects held in Eastern Europe were removed to an unnamed North African nation, current and former CIA officers told ABC News on condition of anonymity. The CIA sources refused to tell ABC to exactly which countries the suspects had been taken, but said it was in the Northern African desert. Furthermore, 10 of the prisoners were allegedly interrogated using so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- questioning procedures some have said are equivalent to torture.

(From derSPiegel)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 08:31 AM

Why are we surprised?
A major feature of globalisation is outsourcing work to countries where legal protections are weaker.
Minimum wage too high? No Problem: Outsource to where people work for a pittance.
You've got a lethally dangerous industrial process? No Problem: Outsource to where there aren't the same level of health and safety laws. (Bhopal?)
Your laws don't allow detention without trial? No Problem: Outsource to Guantanomo
Your laws don't allow torture? No Problem: Outsource to former Communist bloc countries: they've even got the skills already!

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM

I don't think Secretary Rice's sex or race have anything to do with this. I judge her on her words and actions.

Is there more rumor and innuendo than fact in this discussion? Undoubtedly, but the Bush administration has it within their power to put the facts out there. That they have not done so suggests to many of us that the facts don't support their position.

I am an American citizen and military veteran who is appalled by this. The simple fact is that most people simply do not believe the Bush administration's denials that they torture people and/or send people elsewhere to be tortured. Given the administration's resistance to a law prohibiting torture (despit overwhelming support for the law in the Republican-dominated Senate), their creative interpretation of the meaning of the word "torture" (denials are easy when you get to define the terms used in the debate), their refusal to give straight answers on the question of secret prisons, their reluctance to allow unfettered international inspections of detention facilities at Guantanamo and elsewhere, their reliance on carefully-worded (and endlessly repeated) sound bites as a substitute for real discussion of the issues, and their history of misleading the world in support of their aims, they simply have no credibility left on questions of this sort.

Torture is a profound moral wrong, and that's the primary reason I am opposed to it. I also believe that it is strategically wrong. What the Bush team doesn't seem to realize is that, to the extent the US has legitimate aims in the world (and I believe that at least some of our aims are legitimate), we are engaged primarily in a war of ideas and ideals. And we undercut our own ideals, and our standing in the world, when we don't adhere to basic norms of civilized conduct and respect for universal human rights. Any small tactical gains that we might make based on information gathered through torture are outweighed -- dramatically -- by our reduced moral authority and damaged credibility as promoter of freedom and human rights for the peoples of the world. It amazes me that the Bush administration can't see that as clearly as the rest of the world does.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: saulgoldie
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:07 AM

I know that the "talking points" routine has worked to a large degree on many issues within the US. But I wonder if she thinks that there is a point at which if she repeats that the US does not condone or support torture so many times, that the US critics, who are mainly the REST OF THE WORLD, will believe it? Even the domestic supporters of Bush no longer believe what he says. And it is now one of the worst-kept "secrets" that the US uses other countries to locate the torture, but that it has the winking approval of the US.

This administration is the scariest group of people in power I have ever seen or could even conceive of. I only hope that the forces of good will ultimately triumph.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 01:22 PM

An evil woman in a corrupt and dangerous government, the world is a hell of a lot more frightening from the election of this dumbo Bush, who is manipulated by evil people.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:53 AM

Whistle Stop - The U.S. propaganda machine would have us believe that it is a war of ideas and ideals but the reality is that it is not. The Bush administration is not undercutting their ideals, they're undercutting your ideals. The Bush administration's ideal is simply to control the worlds energy resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 04:36 AM

Sister Azizi?

What order is it that you have now joined?

Shall we expect a thread from you on religious no-nos?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:35 AM

Dianavan, I respect your views on this, but I don't entirely agree. I do think that Saddam Hussein was a menace who had to be dealt with; I do believe that promoting human rights and self-determination for the peoples of the world are appropriate goals for the US; and I do believe that, to a point, it is important for the US and other countries to take some measures to ensure that energy resources continue to be available to the world. I expect that others on this forum might disagree with some of that, and that's okay with me, but these are my views.

However, assuming for the sake of argument that these are legitimate aims, I still can't fathom how we can realistically expect to advance them by abusing people in our custody. Even if we somehow bypass the moral issue, as a practical matter we need to win people over or we will never accomplish any of this. It's the old "hearts and minds" objective from Vietnam war days; until we truly recognize that as our primary objective, and align our tactics with our objectives, we don't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:15 AM

Dont know Sister Azzi, Shambles but that I might welcome her as my sister is something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:43 AM

Once again instead of the media using the word 'LIE' , they said "perhaps she is merely saying what she expects NATO countries want to hear, without making any policy changes regarding rendition and torture.

Can't say lie on radio or TV.

Instead we have misled, mistaken, credibility gap,
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushlieworked2.jpg


The president however can use the word LIAR
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushliar.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM

UK Law Lords have today outlawed evidence gained by torture from being used in British courts.

Well done the Law Lords.

But what about the scumbag politicians who wish to use torture as a weapon of supression
Its time we all made up our minds about what kind of world we want for ourselves and our children...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:58 PM

Americans torture ,hang,shoot, lethal injection,blame everyone else .Start having a good look at your selves,you good bible beating love your neighbour do gooders

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:54 PM

well it actually looks like she after two weeks of denial and not really saying anything about US wrongdoing, she finally came out and defended the 'renditions' as a necessary part of the US war on terror, and that whatever was done was with the full knowledge of the govts involved.
(of course it didnt help her that VP CHeney publicly came out in support of torture, and the CIA continues to practice 'waterboarding', tying someone to a plank and immersing their head in water to the point where they believe theyre drowning, (even while the State dept. condemns other govts that practice this sort of technique).

words she will come to regret in the end. THey are all absolutely true of course but it will open a can of worms, as now it is very likely that there will be inquiries in those countries that were involved, and will unearth more illegalities of the American gulag, that this failing administration would prefer to keep quiet about.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:18 AM

Dont know Sister Azzi, Shambles but that I might welcome her as my sister is something else.

That you may be able to welcome her as your sister is indeed one very good thing. That she may be able to accept you as a brother - is perhaps another?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:40 AM

Race or ethnicity is not a determining factor as to who I consider my brother or sister.

My spiritual belief is that we all are children of God. But there are close family ties and there are distant relatives...

I believe that people become close because they have walked in each other's shoes, or they can image doing so. I believe sharing one or more significant experiences-particularly a crises-that are the same or similar can forge strong bonds between individuals regardless of other differences they may have. Sharing similar or compatible interests and/or opinions on matters of importance can further connect individuals to each other.

Maybe it's a vibe thing...I can't explain it. But yes, though I am likely never to meet them, on a number of levels, I am honored to call Jon and some others here my brothers. And I'm equally honored to call a number of women on Mudcat my sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice - not nice
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:28 PM

Geeze, ain't that crap cute comin' from you, Shambles.