BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con

Subject: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:43 PM

I'm interested in hearing documented views both pro and con, even in hindsight, as to whether and when we should leave Iraq ASAP. Here is former Florida senator Bob Graham:

"As chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence during the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001, and the run-up to the Iraq war, I probably had as much access to the intelligence on which the war was predicated as any other member of Congress. I, too, presumed the president was being truthful -- until a series of events undercut that confidence."

The RunUp to War

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM

Initial reasons that were given on why Iraq needed invading:

1. Nuclear threat....... Turned out to be FALSE...

2. WMD's................ Turned out to be FALSE...

3. Links to Al Qeada.... Turned out to be FALSE...

Then we had "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"... Fine, lets go home...

But then we got the "new & improved" reasons on why we had to occupy Iraq:

1. Iraq needs to be a democracy...

   Well, is an adminsistration so steeped in scandal and corruption
   a "credible" champion for democracy??? This the Texas
   redristricting, or the lock out of DEemocrats in writing the
   The Medicaid drug program, jyst for starters.

2. Iraq needs a constitution...

   Fine, it has one, let's leave.

3. Iraq needs an elected governemnt...

   Fine it will have one in 2 days, let's leave.

Yeah, the American people have been sitting in front of pea-undre-the-shell artist going on 3 years now with one reationale for being in Iraq after another either proven false or shifted to yet another reason on why the US is in Iraq...

The Bushites can't llooase this debate, Ebbie, 'caause it is the entite ball of wax concerning the health of the Republican Party... Most Americans have sniffed it out yet there are a significant number of them that never will... Unfortanately the ones that are so partisan are also the ones who are wealthy and want to be even more wealthy... In a way, Iraq is just another wedge issue that keeps Boss Hog fat, gettin' fatter by the day, and happy...

Yeah, until you aked the question, Eb, I had never thought of Iraq as another "flag burnin', abortion, gay marriage" kinda issue but the Bush administration has recently taken steops to try to frame it quite thesame as the other divisive issues it uses to keep the American people at each others throats while corporate interets are on the fast track into the working man's pockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:35 PM

I have a Juneau friend (philosophy major, Bill D) who says she knows that the ONLY thing that will get this country onto a different track, morally, ethically, sustainably, is to rein in the Corporations. She may be right- I remember not too many years ago when monopolies were broken up by the US government on the rationale that too much money and marketplace power held in too few hands was not good for the country.

Nowadays it is not only winked at but held up as an example of the 'American Way'.

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM

Tell yer friend that this ol' hillbilly has figured it out as well...

Iraq is nuthin' more than Bush's latest side show to keep the American people disracted while Boss Hog rifles thru their pockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:07 PM

Ebbie,

in which way is your link and quote relevant for your question?

The truth was not being told on the way to this war, but what has that to do with the question when the USA should leave (I leave out the 'whether' for I cannot imagine anyone disagreeing here with you) Iraq?

One could agree with the statement that Bush has misinformed the public but still think that in the present situation the USA should still stay. One even could think (with a bit of imagination) the reason for the president to start this war was valid but that now, in this situation, the USA should leave very quickly.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:41 PM

Well, Wolfgang, all I can say is that in the grand Mudcat tradition a thread becomes what it becomes. My idea was/is that Catters might post arguments for and against a time table for leaving Iraq, as well as posting information from columnists and legislators as to just how we got into it. Kind of on the order of 'Popular Views of the Administration.'

But wherever and however it goes it will be interesting and I, for one, will learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: GUEST,boab
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:18 PM

Aye Wolfgang--"with a bit of imagination". I hear now some little suggestions that the Bush man is trying to gain friends and influence people. Even to the extent of admitting =[kind of---] that 30000 Iraqi civilians have lost their lives in the recent horrid years.
Lets just "imagine" how conservative that guesstimate must be , coming from the trigger finger himself--and how many more hundreds of thousands of mothers, fathers, sisters brothers, children and friends now feel great gratitude and friendly feeling for those who were instrumental in perpetrating---and perpetuating--the slaughter.
And, wonder of wonders, the Great Democrat himself [ooops!]is now [again, kind of] revealing to all the world that just maybe, the "intelligence" which compelled him to begin the slaughter of the [conservative] 30000 souls was faulty. Aye, right, as they say in Glasgow. Grand salve for the consciences of those benighted souls who genuinely believed in your rantings over the years; but your sleekit attempts to worm your way into the "good books" of those in the world who knew you and your co-conspirators for the liars and hypocrites that you were [and manifestly still are] merely induce in us the desire to puke. Time your regime was history, little man--or as Somebody said once "get thee behind me---"

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:20 PM

I think three things:

1) The US should never have gone in
2) Since they ARE in, they'd best not leave until there is a government in place that accommodates all major groups in Iraq: Sunni, Shiite and Kurd--or people could likely expect to see civil war and a slaughter akin to that which followed the US 'withdrawal' from Vietnam
3) The UN should be asked to send peace-keeping troops for a while, until it's clear that the new government will be able to govern

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:45 PM

Well, Bruce, we agrre on #1.

#2??? I might suggest that waiting for the scenerio that you have described might, with luck, be ten years out, or never.... 20,000 more Americans died in Vietnam after Nixon did his "stay the course" song and dance routine... The "Civil war" will come... It doesn't matter if it's this year or 30 years from now... The "civil war" was 100% guarenteed when Bush took out Saddam....

#3??? Well, kinda of. Let me explain. The "Sudir Proposal" which the Bush administration so carefully danced around but never endorsed would have provided for a road-map to a MIddle East peace... Bush didn't like if because it wouldn't provide him with a "war" (pick a war, any war will do...) that Karl Rove insisted he needed to stay in power so Bush just went beyond the peace initiative that was very much on the table...

...So, if I'm the president tomorrow, I', talkin' up the "Saudi Proposal" and trying to get the Arab countries back on board... You get them on board and thenthe Europeans fall into line... Buty it all stars with a little crafty back-tracking... Okay, call it eating a little crow pie... That is where any realistic peace process begins... Not with convincing Europe it needs to be Iraq... They ain't buyin'...

That's the way I see it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 05:52 PM

Boab,

I was talking form, you are talking content.
If you think that when I am arguing against the form of an argument I must necessarily disagree with the content of the argument you are very much mistaken.

But I never had the impression you know that difference from your postings.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Leaving Iraq: Voices Pro and Con
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 05:58 PM

Just BTW, on the level of content, I completely agree with Peace's post.

Wolfgang