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Origins: Winding Boy

voyager 14 Dec 05 - 12:03 PM
greg stephens 14 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM
Chris in Wheaton 14 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM
open mike 14 Dec 05 - 03:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM
curmudgeon 14 Dec 05 - 04:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Dec 05 - 04:05 PM
Amos 14 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,voyager 14 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Banjo Ray 14 Dec 05 - 05:50 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Dec 05 - 05:53 PM
voyager 14 Dec 05 - 05:58 PM
BanjoRay 14 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM
BuckMulligan 14 Dec 05 - 07:37 PM
BuckMulligan 14 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM
BanjoRay 14 Dec 05 - 08:34 PM
Chris in Wheaton 15 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Dec 05 - 06:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 05 - 03:56 AM
Chris in Wheaton 16 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Dec 05 - 01:38 AM
van lingle 17 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM
GUEST 17 Dec 05 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,steamboatsblues 18 Mar 09 - 06:13 PM
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Subject: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: voyager
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:03 PM

I've been playing a version of "Winding Boy" ever since I started fingerpicking (couple of decades).

So here's my question -

What's a "Winding Boy"
And why do I care if "denies my name".

Happy Holidays -
voyager


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM

Have a go at searching "wining boy" and I think you'll find some theories


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

You might look at the new release of the Jelly Roll Morton LOC recording out on Rounder, which is sold out right now - http://www.rounder.com/index.php?id=album.php&catalog_id=6763
I suppose Jelly claims to have written the song --
And somebody should re-release the Elektra Blues Project with this and other great fingerpicking tunes.
Chris in Wheaton


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: open mike
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 03:13 PM

wining or whining?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 03:19 PM

apparently it was slang for a pimp.

jelly roll who claimed to have invented jazz when he wrote this song - said that it was cos he loved rich wines, but that was apparently figleaf of rare modesty.

there is a book called mr jelly rolll, which he wrote with a little help from John Lomax - and he tells you quite a lot about the milieu from whence this song sprung.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: curmudgeon
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:04 PM

The "whining boy" sat outside the brothel with his guitar, mouth harp, or just voice. When he saw the police coming, he would "whine" a specific song/tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:05 PM

"Winin' Boy Blues" Two versions by Jelly Roll Morton at Red Hot Jazz:
http://www.redhotjazz.com/jellyroll.html
Morton


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM

As for the second question, it seems pretty fundamental that having your name "denied" (denigrated or made nothing of) is part of the general burden of debasement that blues like these are born in.

Similar complaints from other parts of the forest: "Just 'cuz I'm a stranger everybody wanna dog me around...", and "Dooooon't puuuuuut me dowwwwwwnnnnn....", etc. etc.

People don't like being trampled on, ignored, disrespected or denigrated by other people. Mebbe this wasn't pointed out to you...but it is pretty basic.


A


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: GUEST,voyager
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:33 PM

Wining Boy (lyrics)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: GUEST,Banjo Ray
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:50 PM

So does anybody know who or what Stavin' Chain was (is)?
Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:53 PM

I have always thought that the winding boy was a young boy, usually the son of one of the whores in a brothel, who was given the task of winding the handle of the barrel organ in the brothel. The name betrayed his status as illegitimate son of a whore - but the reverse snobbery of the trade involved his proclaiming that he did not deny his name.

I have no evidence.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: voyager
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:58 PM

"Stavin' Chain" (or more properly "Stave 'n' Chain") was a legendary (possibly real) late 19th century strong man who worked on the railroad and was known for his large "stave."(A long straight piece of solid material such as wood used as support, especially for walking).

voyager


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: BanjoRay
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM

Well - I've just done a little reading and found the following:
From Mister Jelly Roll by Alan Lomax - Stavin Chain, to whom Morton compared himself, lived off women. Hero of a long rambling ballad, known all through the Southwest, Stavin Chain's prowess was sexual.
I'd like to hear that ballad...
Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:37 PM

There are a few citations that claim "winin' - or winding - boy" to be a man whose ability to satisfy women is well known. I haven't seen any etymology of the term, not even a folk one. Dave van Ronk and Leon Redbone have both recorded terrific versions of this golden oldie. I heard a version of the Ballad of Stavin Chain many (45-ish) years ago, played on the piano by a high-school chum; no idea where he got it, and being the whitebbread suburbanites we were it was not very bluesy, but I do remember that the chorus contained the lines "Stavin Chain, the meanest man in New Orleans." (Though I could have sworn I heard it as Stavin Change, not that that adds anything).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

there seems to be a download of Stavin Change available here


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM

I seem to remember he was 12 string player - I don't keep a record of these things, but I remember reading about him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: BanjoRay
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:34 PM

BuckMulligan's link is to a tune-only version of Stavin Change (The Meanest Man In New Orleans) from 1923 be the Indiana Five, a white New York band that tried to sound like a black New Orleans band - it's actually rather good. The tune seems to be based on Windin' Boy.
Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM

great song for fingerpicking - can anybody help me out with the up the neck chords they use for fingerpicking this? It's not that I don't ever get beyond the 3rd fret, but any ideas on good chord positions to use would really be appreciated.
Thanks, Chris


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 06:42 PM

The C to E change is really the only time you need to venture out of the comfort zone.

two suggested variations:-

fingers on the fret board for a regular first position five string C chord
pinch strings 5 and 2 (the twoC's)
repeat the pinch but move the fingers up fret by fret until you are playing two E's instead of two C's. rest of the fingers down fingering a moved up c7 shape in the E7 position - syncopated picking pattern
then of course the next chord is F, so you can slip the c7 shape just another fret ahead
try C9 shapes as well moved up to the E position in place of the E7.

Slide four string long A and A7 chords up to the 9th fret for another sort of E7


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 03:56 AM

Nowadays I feel the song has political significance. I talk about the way I relate to it, on the Song Notes page of my website.
http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/

This is not beating the drum for my unremarkable version of the song. But rather, I think when we approach songs like this we need to be aware - we are getting a rare glimpse into the perceived inhumanity of the sex industry as it was in those days - and maybe as it still is.

Jelly Roll 'don't deny his name' - is aware that he lives outside the respectability of this world, and the edicts of religion which say he is going to suffer in the next - maybe whilst he is servicing the needs of the preachers and politicians who trumpet these rules from their pulpits and soapboxes.

Take a drive through the redlight areas of any of our major cities - and you will see it has plenty of bite and relevance.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

WLD - thanks for the ideas, I haven't listened to Jelly'srecording for years, but my impression then was that he tired very hard to live in two worlds - the respectable one (where he could wear the diamond in this tooth) and the one he came from (where he had to pawn the diamon) - just agreeing to do the recordings showed to me that he was serious about documenting his history, even if he made up some (don't we all). I think it would have been very interesting to go out for a night bar-hopping with Jelly. It would be great if Marion McPartland, Ken Burns or somebody could just do a piano jazz historu TV series - Jelly, Willie the Lion, Ubbie - I have a tremendous admiration for them all.
I think they all pretty good guys who were mainly interested in perfecting their craft.
Chris in Wheaton


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 01:38 AM

To be honest i didn't really recognise the Morton version when I heard it.

Versions by by Ian Buchanan on the old Blues project album was my first source and then George Melly has recorded a great live version on his son of nuts album.

My chemistry teacher at school was a great jazz fan and he played me the morton version , his own version - from when he played jazz trombone in a jazz band. And he loaned me the jelly Roll Morton /Lomax book. Eventually I rewarded him by giving up the study of chemistry and getting out of his enormously clever class's way - must have been an immense relief for him!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: van lingle
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM

I seem to remember Jellyroll saying somewhere that the Winin' Boy got his name from the habit of taking all the near empty wine bottles after a night's debauchery, pouring the remainders all into one and then shaking it up and drinking it. I think it was either in the LOC/Lomax recordings or it was related in the Lomax book. It was supposedly J.M.'s sanitization of the term which referred to a randy fellow.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy - Origins of this song
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 08:25 AM

Threads....
   Mudcat Cross-Post from 2000 - Winding Boy

Grateful Dead - Wining Boy (Snippet)
   NOTE: Sister is "a dirty little sow"
         Stavin' Chain becomes 'stir the chain'

voyager


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Subject: RE: Origins: Winding Boy
From: GUEST,steamboatsblues
Date: 18 Mar 09 - 06:13 PM

A "stave and chain" was the manacle and chain worn around the ankles of chain-gang workers.


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