BS: Immaculate mis-conception

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:34 AM

"Some claim that the Old Testament prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 that "the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son" is a Greek mistranslation -- that the original Hebrew reads "young woman"(alma), not "virgin"(bethulah)."

from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:57 PM

Yup, sure is. Well, good night. Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM

I'm with ya LH ... well said! :)

"It's as silly as fundamentalists who believe every word in the Bible literally." .... and that's the danger with fundamentalists (of all religions).

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:52 PM

My abruptness wasn't really toward you or anyone in particular, 6. I just get irritated when people subject allegorical spiritual writings (from an ancient time which used its own kind of symbolism) to the kind of modern technical literal investigation they might use to identify a fingerprint on a gun...

It's just downright silly. It's as silly as fundamentalists who believe every word in the Bible literally.

And, yes, I agree fully that Mary's role is very significant in that "it brings forth the feminine side of 'man' into the big picture (i.e. God)", as you said. Absolutely.

Religions that leave out the feminine side of divinity are missing on half the picture, in my opinion.

Yes, all births are pure. All conceptions are pure. I think, though, that the consciousness of the woman Mary was probably unusually heightened, and that's what the passages are symbolizing.

Ebbie - That's interesting, but I assume that a sperm was still presumed to be involved in those pregnancies, was it? Or was it not? A sperm can enter a womb despite the hymen being intact, can it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:43 PM

"Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
But all the people can't be all right all the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours,"
I said that."

.... Bob Dylan exerpt from "Talkin' WWIII Blues"

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:38 PM

"They might all be "part right""

Part right is still wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

Thanks for posting that Peace ... my father used to recite that to me and my sisters when we were very, very young. I haven't heard that since.

Again, much thanks.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

There are medical records of pregnancies occurring in women whose hymens had not been broken, in fact were still present.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:08 PM

Very good LH ... but you don't have to be so 'abrupt' about it. But aren't all births pure. You didn't mention what I feel is the most important factor in regards to the 'virgin Mary' and that it brings forth the feminine side of 'man' into the big picture (i.e. God)

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM

The more immaculate mis-conceptions of modern times are that Bush is a good President and that he didn't lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:03 PM

Or they might all be using the same story to sell the snake oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:01 PM

American poet John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887) based the following poem on a fable which was told in India many years ago.


It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind


The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"


The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"


The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"


The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
" 'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"


The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"


The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"


And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:


So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM

They might all be "part right" though, Clinton. Like you. Or me. You know, right some of the time....

They might all be describing the same elephant, but each from a different vantage point. You know that story?

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM

Spiritual texts are usually talking about spiritual matters, as opposed to physical matters. They don't NEED to talk about physical matters much. The language is symbolic. Her "virginity" was symbolic of the state of her consciousness. It was very pure. Purer than in most people. Is that really so hard to understand?

It is asinine to argue about whether someone had a "virgin" pregnancy in the physical sense, but it is not asinine to assert that the mother of a particularly enlightened soul might have herself had a purer than usual state of consciousness...in order to serve as a host for that soul.

If all you believe in is physicality, then spiritual writings will be opaque or foolish to you and will make no sense whatsoever.

Religions have always, historically, allowed the common people to have simple, literal faith (frequently in highly unlikely or impossible things), while the adepts in the spiritual disciplines (such as the mystery schools in Egypt during Christ's time) knew well enough to look beyond the literal and graps the symbols intended.

Let me tell you what a very wise man once told me. I asked him what he thought about the "immaculate conception". He smiled, and said,

"ALL conception is immaculate."

And he most certainly did NOT mean that it didn't involve sex! He meant that it is a pure movement of divine energy (moving through the physical human structures of man and woman, sperm, egg, etc) which enables conception to occur...and THAT is completely holy and immaculate...regardless of what idiotic negative ideas various people may have acquired about sex being dirty, sex outside of marriage being "illegitimate"...or their various other fearful notions of reality that they have gleaned from the prejudices of their culture.

People are incredible. They have the capability and potential of gods, but they would rather act like worms most of the time, it seems. They have completely forgotten what and who they truly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM

Geeeez Clinton ... there's always one in a crowd.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:41 PM

No religion is "right"

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:39 PM

I should add I think there is nothing wrong in questioning and even doubting a facit of one's religion.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:37 PM

What's the meaning of it's theological symbolism LH ?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:34 PM

The story of the virgin birth is:

1. not literal (it's symbolic)
2. a story already found in some previous religions in that region long before Christianity, thus it was a rather familiar theme with which to market a religion in the Middle East at that time

If you can't figure out the symbolism intended, that's your problem.

Listening to literal minds debating about great religious texts which are filled with symbol and allegory is like listening to squids debating about the best method of farming aspargus in Utah.

Martin, your delusion is that your religion is the only right one. Feel good, my friend, because there are billions out there in all the various organized religions who think the same way you do, and you will have lots of fun arguing with them, but it won't change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:15 PM

Mythology MG.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM

Virgin birth = non-vaginal birth = Caesarian.

The three wise men were Celtic midwives from Galatia.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:57 PM

Is this about mythology or faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:57 PM

A golden shower can get you pregnant??

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM

You are correct MG.

Most certainly won't be found in a medical journal ... but then, there are those bogus medical schools.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM

"For example in the Greek myth, Perseus was born of the virgin Danae. Danae was conceived by the God Zeus who took the form of a shower of gold."

In the Greek, there was no mention of a virgin birth.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:53 PM

Nah, it's in the mythology of Egypt and Assyria and elsewhere, I think.

Consider this: Joseph, the "father" of Jesus of Nazareth, was supposed to be "of the house and family of David." But if Jesus of Nazareth was conceived by a virgin, he wasn't the son of Joseph and hence couldn't be of the "house and family." But the Messiah was supposed to come from the "house and family".... Moreover, Joseph was with "Mary, his espoused wife, who was with child" -- i.e., Jesus's parents weren't married....

I'm not making any theological or scriptural or any other comments here; just pointing out some discrepancies I figured out while hanging around church recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM

Hey MG ... with YHWH anything is possible !

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:47 PM

Peace, if it is, I doubt that it you can find it in the Old Testament. Or in any medical journals either for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM

The story of virgin birth was around over 300 years before Mary was born. I will see if I can find a link.

Subject: BS: Immaculate mis-conception
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:37 PM

So some of us were sitting around the other day over some Mogen David and the subject turned to Christmas and the birth of Jesus and all of the myth and superstition tied to it.

We came to this conclusion. If the virgin Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived and when she gave birth, then she is the first and only women to have lost her hymen from the inside out. Talk about knocking walls down.