BS: Charles Kennedy

Subject: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:07 PM

Sorry to hear the British Liberal Leader Charles Kennedy has a few problems at the moment.

He's the one political Leader on either side of the pond who has had the guts to stand-up to Bush and Blair on Iraq.

All decent-minded people should wish Mr. Kennedy well and if you have a vote in his Leadership election then vote to keep him as Liberal Leader because we need an alternative to the Bush / Blair / right-wing axis of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:27 AM

He's done for.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Menzies
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:32 AM

Tedderino you old cynic

We will stick up for him.
Up the boro

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:33 AM

That's as maybe, but what are the alternatives? Sometimes it really is better the devil you know.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:41 AM

Elsewhere on the page you find people waxing lyrical about Churcill.
I bet Winston could drunk have him under the table, and then pissed further up the wall.

Of couse he shouldn't resign.

What we need in this country is a red headed Scotsman, in a kilt and dancing the Can Can. Adding a flash of colour to state occasions. he gets my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:41 AM

I seem to recall Churchill had a drinking problem.......

(Not that I know anything about contemporary British politics)

yours,

Peter
T.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:46 AM

I've heard comments that the real problem is that he's 'lacklustre' - but the lack of lustre is what is best about him.
Before the last election we were shown the usual shiny Tony, and desperately silly film clips of the Tory leader gleaming with sweat, running from house to house through a middle-class suburb.
Meanwhile, there was Charles talking calmly an d sensibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:54 AM

I have never liked him. I don't think he is a good leader.

The fact that he has a drink problem has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:45 AM

What we need in the country is a decent OPPOSITION!!! Cameron is just another Blair clone, who is waffling rather unconvincingly about environmentalism at the moment, but will, no doubt, revert to true Tory form if he ever gets any power - and it will be Big Business as usual. I live in hope that the Lib Dems could form a viable opposition but Kennedy is just not very convincing - and, let's face it, alcoholism doesn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:29 AM

Jeremy Thorpe - had homosexual affairs whilst married.
David Steele - sold the Liberals out to David Owen.
Charles Kennedy - Lied about his alcoholism.

Who's bloody next up for the job as Lib/Dem leader? I see Limp Biskit... sorry... Lembit Opik is vociferously defending Kennedy. This is a shrewd manoeuvre if you intend to stand for the leadership at the next-but-one party election. Showing solidarity with Kennedy now will stand him in good stead in the future.

A lot has been made about Sir Winston Churchills drinking, there is no comparison! Churchill enjoyed his brandy and champagne and didn't give a damn what anyone thought about it! The problem here is that Kennedy AND his inner circle of MPs' LIED about it.

As a proponent of proportional representation, I doubt if I will see it established in my lifetime now thanks to this monumental fuck up!

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:54 AM

Hi Ted

you missed out Paddy Pantsdown (allegedly)

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM

Oh God yes!!! Thanks for reminding me Nick. I had forgotten about his pecadillos.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Gedpipes
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:04 AM

Ooh teddesk
You are fired up to-day. Keep on taking the prozac
Liberally yours

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Arnie
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:05 AM

Charles K. only revealed that he is a 'recovering' alcoholic when threatened with exposure by ITN news. Previous to that he had simply lied about his true condition. I wonder is there such a beast as a 'recovering' alcoholic? I knew an alcoholic barman who told me that he was an alcoholic who currently was not drinking, and that there was no such thing as an ex-alcoholic. Unfortunately my barman friend proved his point by lapsing into his old ways - he got the sack and I've never seen him since.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:18 AM

As Jeremy Thorpe suggested for a poster campaign, vote Liberal or I''ll shoot your dog

Norman Hunter bites your leg, Norman Scott bites your pillow

I'll be buggered if I'll vote Liberal !

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM

Why is this country so hell bent on destroying people who make it to the top.

What people do in their private life is up to them. I am sure if you ask anybody if they have something to hide or would prefer did not come into the public domain, there would be something.

How they perform in their job, is another issue.

Quite honestly, I can't see anybody better to take over, and thats sad, because he is crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: weerover
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 03:10 PM

Had he admitted his problem at any other time, I'd have admired him. As it stands, he only did it minutes before it would be revealed on national TV news broadcasts.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 03:41 PM

My brother-in-law was an alcoholic. Dead at 47 of liver failure. My sister had the misfortune to find him (they had separated by that time)

A former colleague (I am now retired) is an alcoholic. Totally unreliable. The moment there is any pressure on him, he hits the bottle and disappears leaving his colleagues in the lurch. I had the misfortune to find several empty vodka bottles in his office when hunting for a student assignment he had not marked.

Charles Kennedy seems to be conforming to the pattern I have observed in these two cases, especially the latter. His behaviour suggests he is actually in denial whatever he is saying publicly. If he is behaving like my former colleague, the lib dems need to dump him quick before he does any more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:25 PM

Winston Churchill had a speech impediment and was frequently accused of being drunk because of it. He actually enjoyed drinking Champagne and Brandy and probably did overdo it occasionally, but he abhored public drunkenness. I think he was was far too busy to be drunk as often as his detractors liked to assume. I did enjoy this retort that was attributed to him.

"'You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk. 'Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober."

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:20 PM

very hard on liberals - these were the party who saved the country from getting involved in the Vietnam war with the Lib-Lab pact. Heath wanted us sending the boys over.

be nicer to the liberals - lib-dems or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM

For some reason, we have neglected to mention Abe Lincoln and General Grant. We must be slipping vis-a-vis cliched responses.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 06:53 PM

sacking someone because they're a 'recovering' alcoholic is like sacking someone who is diabetic. If there is some incident that shows he has become a practising alcoholic, then confront him with the incident.

it's a nasty excuse by people in a different faction of the party to dump him.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:19 PM

Oh dear - I seem to have a political favourite - the aberration will pass.

If it wasn't the true middle ground of British politics I would fear I smelled the whiff of tactical timing running through my knows (sic).

I wonder how much the other parties played in this - we are talking politics after all.

Listen to the public fellas - there are those who actually like the man. And by inference think less of politicians who find it convenient not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:28 PM

I've had two friends, both pros on the folk scene die as alcoholics. We couldn't help them, though everybody tried. Kennedy has lied and lied about his condition, and then boasted that he's not had a drink in two months. It's all denial. I've seen it too many times to be fooled. He should resign and try to get his life in some order, but like my two friends and George Best and countless others, I somehow feel he will fail, although I don't wish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:48 PM

Freda it appears from what mps and aides are saying that they did stand by him when he was battling the problem early last year, but he had a relapse November just gone and they have had enough of sticking by him. A couple said it would be irresponsible to support him in his state of health.

Personally I think he has no choice but to stand down as the leader or he will be ousted next week in a no confidence vote.

Right or wrong his days are numbered. It will give him the time to try and recover and save his family life. They must have had a hard time lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:52 PM

Good news for Spliffy Cameron. He should pick up a fair number of pissed off LibDem voters from this.

Strikes me those LibDems who were out to get Kennedy really bungled this one. If the man really has a serious drink problem, as opposed to a non-problematic fondness for the drink, they ought to have been able to get him significantly drunk and incapacitated in public before sticking the boot in.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Clogger
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 08:22 PM

Obviously he denied it... would anybody seriously expect him to VOULENTARILY go public? Is "the leadership" not decided by their MP's but by their membership, one man (or woman) one vote? If the membership backs him then those MP's who threatemed to, should resign. Forcing him to "walk the plank" is not constitutional! Having said that I do not have to work with him.
Just a thaught ..... don't we want leaders who can lie through their teath at everybody else, but are totaly truthfull to us?

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:06 PM

To be a convincing liar seems to be a positive quality in todays politicians.
We need only look at the last few years of New Labour deceit, culminating in the disgraceful fabrications over Iraq to see the pattern.

However , I agree with "wordy"
Alcoholism is more than a physical disease and betrays a serious psychological problem.
I'm sorry to say it, but Charles ...never the most inspiring of leaders... should resign and look to his family for strength and comfort...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: C-flat
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 07:41 AM

All politicians have to be skilled liars simply because the media will not permit any human weakness in anyone holding public office.
If we are only allowed to draw people into public life from a pool of non-drinking, non-smoking, anti-drugs, pure of thought hetrosexuals who are happily married with no family skeletons-in-cupboards, who's left?
How many of those we now consider statesmen from previous generations would pass muster today?
I'm no great fan of Kennedy, in fact I struggle to think of a single politician of this present crop that offers much hope for the future, but unless his personal habits are interfering with his ability to work (maybe they do?) then it's got nothing whatsoever to do with anyone but him and his family.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 08:52 AM

Having said that I do not have to work with him.

Exactly. His colleagues have covered up for him up to a point. Anyone who ever has had close experience of an alcoholic knows that they are not reliable. It is an illness and eventually if the person who is ill fails to help himself, those around him/her will stop helping too.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 09:34 AM

The newswoman who was going to tell the story as a "scoop" had allegedly been a close friend of Kennedy's and learned her key facts (if facts) in that role. The thought that your "friend" would do that puts me off Kennedy's friends far more than any drink problem he may have or have had. Well done Kennedy to spike her guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 09:47 AM

Alcoholism impairs judgement. That could explain his choice of friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Arnie
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM

I've just heard that Charles Kennedy is to make a statement to the press this afternoon - expect his resignation!!

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

sacking someone because they're a 'recovering' alcoholic is like sacking someone who is diabetic

Sadly, all too often, they recover for a while, then relapse. It keeps happening. Look at George Best, a good example. Eventually you run out of patience with them as they become less and less functional.


If there is some incident that shows he has become a practising alcoholic

Denial and deviousness are, unfortunately two of the hallmarks of alcoholism. Unfortunately the recovery rate is extremely small - less than 10% of true alcoholics kick the habit and recover.

Both the people I knew, my brother in law and my colleague were truly likeable people, but the alcohol changed them and they both became different people.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM

Bye bye Charles.....hello Mingis!
A further reminder why I will NEVER be a "polititian"

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Cats
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 12:58 PM

Now that he's gone, should there be an election, I would like to see Matthew Taylor stand. He was the late David Penhaligon's protogee [the best leader the liberals never had. Died in a car crash on Christmas Eve a few years ago on his way to make an early morning constituency visit to the postal workers in Truro]. As a tribute to David, he should stand and he would be an excellent leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 03:36 PM

It's not like it's a real job, being leader of the Lib Dems...

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 04:07 PM

Like the understudy's understudy you mean.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:41 PM

I suppose it'll be another "celebrity" leader just like Blair and Cameron, with no knowledge of, or interest in the real problems confronting the world.

Ah well ....We get the leaders we deserve..

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:45 PM

Whatever his faults, they are as nothing compared to the shits who put the boot in. Especially a woman called Tong, a remarkably nasty bit of work. It has not been an edifying couple of days for British politics. That Opik fellow seems quite a decent sort of bloke. however. He should be leader in a couple of years, at least he knows about sticking up for his mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM

Lembit Opik that is - as Greg says, seems a decent bloke. Nearly got killed paragliding, a few years back, breaking his back. A close brush with death like that is somethimng that all MPs might benefit from.

And his (Estonian)name actually spells "I like to b MP".

If they had any sense they'd pick him now. They won't of course. I think it's downhill for them now. One way and another they've blown it.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 07:41 PM

This attitude of sticking up for your mates is exactly what alcoholics don't need. It's tough, yes, but the right thing is to make them face up to their problem. An alcoholic is not a mate down the pub who has a pint too many now and then. Too many so called friends of alcoholics buy them drinks for God's sake!
An alcoholic is not to be trusted, and even when they haven't drunk again for a year, they're not to be trusted, certainly not with the running of the country.
It's not a joke condition.
Spencer Tracy for instance could go months and months without a drink and then disappear,sometimes in the middle of a film, booking himself into a hotel. He would take a crate of whisky, fill a bathtub with water, get in and spend days drinking the whisky without leaving the bath.
Not a pretty picture is it. Katy Hepburn would track him down and clean him up.
Okay for a film star maybe, he could still work when sober, okay for a folk singer maybe, although we all know the ones who went on the stage drunk and couldn't finish a set.
Hamish Imlach was a good laugh wasn't he? He even wrote in his book how he was so drunk he shat himself and his trousers became as hard as a board.
Oh, how we laughed.
However, this is not the condition we would want a prime Minister to be in...ever.
Good luck to Kennedy and all like him. This will be his toughest fight and he'll be fighting till his dying day.
But no more about his friends betraying him. They've done him the greatest favour by saying enough is enough.



Good mates

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 07:52 PM

And just in case you think I'm overstating it;
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article337237.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Scottie
Date: 07 Jan 06 - 08:36 PM

I live in West Fife in Scotland where our Labour MP sadly died of cancer this week. That means we'll soon be having a by-election to replace her. Charles Kennedy's Liberals did well in this area at last year's election finishing a good 2nd to Labour. I don't think they'll do so well here again.

We Scots are loyal to our fellow Scots especially when they're being attacked by the English. There is huge public sympathy for Charles Kennedy here and a great feeling that he's been unfairly stuffed by mainly English MPs.

Expect the Scottish Nats. to benefit from the whole sorry affair... which is bad news for Kennedy's likely successor Menzies Campbell who is MP for the next-door constituency to mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 09:10 AM

It's not the fault of the tolerant English. Scottish bigotry again. When you have an English Premier and an English Chancellor and an English leader of your third party with his deputy being English, maybe I'll begin to understand your constantly whinging prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:17 AM

I hope you aren't a Celtic fan. That would be too cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:27 AM

No Guest wordy, you are not overstating it. The independant story exactly parallels my brother-in-law and my colleagues behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: breezy
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:48 AM

Of course you should never ever sterio type Scotsmen !

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 11:13 AM

Did his "friends" have any alternative method to get through to him.?

All very sad but probably necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 12:41 PM

The colleagues who strung up Kennedy and kicked away the ladder doubtless thought they were acting in the best interests of the party. I think they were disatrously wrong. The Liberals have always stood for something a little bit different, and their way of executng him was not really in that tradition: nor in the best interests of their own political futures. As we will see in the next local elections, unless they come up with a very effective leader. Annd who will that be? I agree with McGrath, get Opik in now and start t raining him up. But I doubt if they are that clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM

Interesting, incidentally, that it was a Campbell who struck the fatal blow.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 02:41 PM

So it looks like he can spend more time in his home seat of Ross, Skye and Lochaber.

Especially Talisker, Balblair, Dalmore, Glen Morangie........

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM

The colleagues who strung up Kennedy and kicked away the ladder doubtless thought they were acting in the best interests of the party. I think they were disatrously wrong.

No, Greg Stephens, they were most emphatically not!

Have you ever been round an alcoholic? I mean a real alcoholic, not just a heavy drinker. They are totally unreliable, devious and live only for the next drink. Most people give them the benefit of the doubt and put up with a great deal before they finally lose patience and act, ultimately out of exasperation. Having had the experience myself, I fully understand why the Lib dems acted like they did. Something will have been the last straw which finally pushed them into action. Believe me, I have seen it happen myself. In my case, it was finding empty vodka bottles while hunting for a student assignment that an alcoholic colleague had failed to mark - a critical assignment, I might add.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 03:01 PM

Amen Tootler. it seems response to what has happened is polarised between those of us who have seen and been with alcoholics and those who think it's just a little drink problem and haven't experienced it's ravages and heartaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 05:53 PM

There is a great deal of innuendo in that piece with the link above, and virtually nothing to demonstrate that any of the alleged failings were due to excessive drinking.

The two instances of allegedly excessive drinking where the drinking is allegedly quantified are frankly so prissily picky as to make me doubt the whole thing. 5 half-glasses of wine is under a bottle. 3 bottles- three glasses is on average a bottle of wine each. Oh wow!

Then again there is the catch 22 of it all. Deny you are an alcoholic and you are in denial - and so of course really an acoholic and not to be trusted. Admit you are an alcoholic and so you are not to be trusted.

We perhaps get the leaders we deserve. Look how we treated the only parliamentary party leader who seemed to be a decent chap. And look at that "press secretary". Kennedy and the party should sue her for breach of confidence, and make sure the next one engaged signs a confidentiality agreement like the ones the Blairs use for their nannies.

And yes I have known and do know alcoholics. The fact that they are alcoholics does not absolve one of the obligation to behave with decency towards them. Stuff you puritans.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 05:59 PM

The fact that they are alcoholics does not absolve one of the obligation to behave with decency towards them.

No, but it does absolve them of the right to lead others.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Jan 06 - 06:11 PM

The Guest posting (5:59) above was not me but I will gladly put my name to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 03:54 AM

I am familiar with dealing with the problems of alcoholics. I am also familiar with the problems of dealing with people who are loathsome shits.

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: GUEST,Clogger
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 04:37 AM

This probably shows more about the people round him than the man himself! Sad innit

Subject: RE: BS: Charles Kennedy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 04:57 AM

perhaps there will be a lot of folk songs about him - the bonny prince, the king over the water, bonny charlies noo awaa, etc.

or he could be a kennedy type thing, with 'who was standing on the grassy knoll?' type controversies and conspiracy theories