BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask

Subject: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:21 PM

After a tough two years of all four of us in small quarters, we are ready to start asking contractors for suggestions and estimates to add on at least a master bed and bathroom and maybe an office and back porch.

We are just at the "been thinkin' about it" stage. I know of one friend who had a whole house built and had all kinds of problems with the building contractor not sticking to the contract, dates, etc.

Any advice on how to proceed? What kinds of things to watch out for/questions to ask, etc.?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:28 PM

Watch more "Holmes on Homes"
http://www.holmesonhomes.com/
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: GUEST,Clogger
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:28 PM

All depends where you are Kat!
Personal recomendations are a good start.There are also a few "build your own house" mag's about, they have ad's in them.
GOOD LUCK!

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:52 PM

Thanks, Clinton, have not seen that program. I don't think we get it here. I see the site is under construction, but will have a look at the stories and discussion forum.

Clogger, Colorado, and I've just phoned a friend's son, today, who is going to call a couple of people he knows, tonight, and get back to me, tomorrow.:-) No way could we do a "build it yourself" no time and not enough "umph" and not enough time in the area to have "barn-raising" friends.

I did look into premade shells, a 900 square foot "cabin" goes for about $22,000. That includes siding, finished roof, insulated flooring, windows and door. We've thought about putting one of them out back for our daughter and grandson, but it would cost even mroe than that to finish the inside, get a foundation poured, plumbing, heating, electrical, water and sewer, SO, we decided it makes more sense, MAYBE, to add on, instead.

On the other hand, maybe we just need to look for a bigger house, but we're kinda partial to our "wee hame" and BIG yard, plus prices are going up and up and up, so...anyone have any stories of personal experience in adding on, etc.?

Thanks a bunch!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:57 PM

What's your location? This makes a big difference.

General points.
Do you need planning/zoning permision? If so, do not even think about doing anything until you have it.

Get references from people you know locally who've had work done.

Find out what the contractors plan to do themselves, and what they'll sub-contract. Specialists - plumbers, electricians etc-not being available is one of the biggest causes of delays.

Find out if you can help- can you clear the site etc? This can save days of time for the builders, saving you lots of money.

Get lots of quotes.

Get a plan, and stick to it. You start changing things half way through, you'll pay several times over in time, money and bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:03 PM

Get at least five recommendations from people. Go see what was done to their homes. Were they happy with the work? Did the job get completed on time? Will your contractor complain if you pput a penalty-clause in the contract? Ask what other work he's done. Check with the BBB in your area. How long has the guy/gal been in business? Also, get three quotes on the work. Don't buy into the BS that, "Hey, we discovered when we opened the wall there that your electrical conduit needs to be changed and we know a guy who can do it" kinda crap. Last, check with your town/city for licenses (s)he's taken out for other construction and phone them to see how happy they are. Just because a contractor gives you his references, remember that they are HIS refereences.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM

One suggestion often seen is that you talk to your banker about a construction loan, set up to make "progress payments" - even if you've got the cash in the bank. They can help with making sure everything is done in normal order.

Make sure you get all estimates in writing.

Make sure you have a written contract that spells out exactly what's to be done, how much it will cost, and when and by whom payments are to be made.

Never pay cash up front for the whole job. (An advantage of the construction loan is that the bank can make progress payments based on the contractor showing that he's paid for materials etc. You at least have a witness.)

Before making a final payoff to the contractor, get proof that all bills for materials and/or subcontractors have been paid. The "mechanic's lien" discovered after you've paid the contractor off, in most areas, makes you liable for paying again if the contractor didn't.

Aside from contractors not paying for subcontractors and materials, which of course is why you have a contract, a most common complaint with add-on construction is that it's common for schedules to slip. Most mod contractors work multiple jobs simultaneously, and weather can always intervene. If you have specific schedule requirements make sure they're clear in the contract; but plan your schedule with the expectation that delays may occur. (When you check out the contractors references, whether the work was done on schedule is something you should ask prior customers.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: maire-aine
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM

I haven't added on, but I have done some remodeling within the same 4 walls. Get recommendations from other folks, esp. folks who've had that kind of work done.

Try to make a list of EVERYTHING you want or wish for-- then organize it by what you can include. Also take a stab at figuring out the critical path for the work, before you talk to the contractor. And have a budget, even if you have to modify it later.

And then smile and relax. It won't take forever. It'll be done before you know it.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:19 PM

Refrences, references, references! and do take the time to see the previous work and talk to previous customers and demand to see a frigging permit for the work which will be undertaken on your behalf.

Also make sure the builder is carrying liablity insurance. Any builder who is worth his salt is going to be glad to provide all this information and anyone who is vague or dismissive of your requests is going to be trouble. Remember the lowest price is not necessarily going to be the best deal. You get what you pay for.

Also, during constructioin verify that all material, suppliers and subtrades are being paid in a timely manner. If your builder does not pay these bills and you've paid him, you can still be held liable for what is outstanding.

Despite all this it is important to remember that a really good builder should be held in respect .

These warnings aren't frivolous, but after 35 years in the industry, working with capable and trustworthy professionals can be a wonderfully rewarding experience. Plan well and have fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:23 PM

Permits permits permits!

Inspections inspections inspections!

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 08:38 PM

Well, katdarlin', the first thing you need is a plan.... No, not tthe kind you've asked fir here... Additions can bea kinda tricky since yer havin' to remove a wall, which in turn throws off yer existing roof... A hip roof works in most instances but the hip is not a given....

Tell ya' what, if you take some pics of yer house (outside and in) and a basic floor plan with demensions (be exact on the measurements), tell me how many square feet you want to add, what you want in the new bath, I'll do you a design that any contractor can work from and will be all you'll need for the building permit...

Now, you'll have to have an electrican, Heat and Air and plumber also submit a plan overlaid on mine for their permits...

I like to open up ceilings but can do what you want....

Hey, I'm good at this...

As fir contratctors, you just have to ask around... You may find a contrctaor who you can work with that has his subs all lined up and that's great... Get references...

Right now, don't let a contractor design yer house... That's not their job....

PM me if you want me to help you with the project...

I understand stuff like bearing walls and girders and croos tires and truss stuff and all that boring stuf but, as you know, I am also an artist so I like the stuff to look darned good whn it's done...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:07 PM

Also kat, renos can be tricky and usually more expensive than new construction. Sometimes there are surprizes such as Peace's conduit in the wall. Some problems are not readily visible even to a good builder until you start tearing stuff out.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:59 PM

and be ready to accept that almost NO project like that gets done on the original schedule, no matter how honest and competent the contractor. They GET business by thinking optomistically.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM

Yeah. Well, penalty clauses can help bring a bit of reality into the equation. It's a small thing: Give me a fair, honest 'when are ya gonna finish this work by? and if you don't here's what it's gonna cost ya' quote. Dicker over the finish date and live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM

Metchosin is exactly right, kat... There's gonna be a few skelitans in that ol' house an' yer just going to have to deal with them as they arise...

Ol' Bobert will stay "On Call" fir 'um.... Heck, I can figgurate lots of solutions to stuff... I just finished up a project in Winchester, Va. on a 1826 3 story building that was trying to fall into itself.... Came out great... Scared the heck outta some of my guys but she held up to what I had to put the ol' gal thru and she's now ready to go another couple hundred years....

Bobert the Builder

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:13 PM

Hi Kat
There are a lot of mags that publish articles on this subject. Watch out for the ones who claim they're a general contractor (GC) & they don't own a pickup or a wheel barrow but drive a Caddy. Project Managers(PM's) and Construction Managers (CM's) are great & well needed on large sites but not for small residential construction they're not need, the GC should do. Do you have an architect? They plan/design & oversee the general contractor but for a small residence again they're usually way to costly. A GC that can is worth gold if they're able to build/design but if you have a plan the GC should be able to follow it easily. They should all have insurances (& require it of their subs) & be able to handle all the licenses & permits & all town, state & federal codes issues, getting inspectors (building, electrical, plumbing, fire, historical & any others that may be required) make sure on the contract it's clear who pays. They should be able to handle the setting up & removal of dumpsters (no on site burials), on time scheduled deliveries, material & equipment storage (see contract) coordinate all trades, keep all trades on a time line, be able to see through any unforeseen costs & any change orders (this is where careful planning in the beginning counts-know what you want first). The GC should be able to handle some of the major trades themselves, like foundation, cement & masonry &/or framing, outside & inside walls &/or floor & roof sheathing & any decking. Backfilling if there's no landscaper involved. Some insulating & ventilation, windows & doors. Some but not many may carry people to do countertops, floors, roofs, chimneys, tile & any odd glass work, sheet metal & duct work & maybe some flashings. Generally your main sub contractors for the special trades will cover plumbing, electrical & electronics, HVAC (heating, venting & air conditioning) & if needed alt energy source & entrainment (take into consideration a trade like roofing you may want a sub for who specializes in the trade but that it may add on 10% to the cost & the GC maybe able to do just as good a job, ASK!). The CG should also take care of all utilities hookups, make sure who pays on the contract & make sure if the contractor or their subs are responsible for these & which of these are private & public. Make sure the GC makes sure that no damage will come to any part of the dwelling because it was exposed to the elements (wind, weather & any unnatural acts of God). If there's damage backcharge the GC who'll, if appropriate, will then backcharge the responsible subs. A clause for this should be cover in the contract. When starting out look for a Schedule of Values it covers & explains how payments are made. If you don't know what this is, here's a brief explanation. There are different subs to be paid by the GC. They'll give him a breakdown of cost. Take the roofer. Stripping the roof is one certain cost, getting rid of the waste in another. The cost to put on a drip edge is another as well as installing ice & water shield & tar paper & again the shingles and again the nails. The costs of the labor & materials are also separated. That way the GC at payday can say the roofer removed 75% of the existing roof (that's one schedual of value) but only installed 60% of the drip edge & only 50% of the ice & water & only 45% of the tar paper & just 30% of the shingles & none of the ridge & soffit vents & all this took up 50 % of the cost of the nails. This keeps the money pretty close to what's being completed (VERY IMPORTANT). So look over the Schedule of Values carefully before the start (the GC also should be giving you his schedule, usually with a 10% markup of the subs when asking for a payment) & make sure nothing to inflated or deflated. Like seeing that a cheap item that's easily install, say drip edge isn't 25% of the value of the roofing instead of it being maybe 3.5% of the real total value. A good eye can keep these worries to a minimum so don't let me scare you. Make sure that the lines of communication between you & the GC are open & never confront a sub of any of the workers ALWAYS go to the GC or their foreman with a concern, the trades people already will already have to many bosses & they are professionals. An explanation here & there is ok but don't be bug them. Little things like covering the coffee during a morning break once in a while or setting up a cheap Friday lunch of hamburgers & hot dogs or a buffet well go along way, really. They'll be less likely to take short cuts & cheat, if it takes just a bit longer to get it done they're more likely to stay & stick it out. You could end up living in an environment that's just a little cleaner & a bit more livable. Let them play the radio & if they need to use one of their extension cords & run it from the outside into a kitchen outlet to get the CD player going that's ok too. But don't let them start hooking up table saws & planners & jointers & cement mixers to your outlets, those connections should be agreed to during contract time with the GC as well as whose paying for those connections. Was the electrical supply cost already in the bid package prior to awarding the contract? Pick your GC with care & don't always go for the low bidder, see that all the bidders are fairly close to each other in price, if the low is way low from the others it should sent up a red flag, check closer, it can make for a beautiful relationship or a nightmare. Best of luck & feel free to ask of me, anything, even if you think it's stupid.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:16 PM

Hey Kat, the above would be for a major revamp so depending on size maybe you should scale down my above to where it fits. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:34 PM

Barry's pretty much covered the waterfront on it, kat.

If you are planning on somehow living there while all this is going on, if you can possibly, by any stretch avoid it, do so. An addition or renovation can sometimes put a lot of pressure on relationships and while it can be interesting and informative, its really not worth the added stress if you can possibly avoid it.

Remember too that sometimes a wish list can cost a lot more than we hope it will, so be prepared to compromise on a few goodies in favour of good construction.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 07:39 AM

Barry said, "Do you have an architect? They plan/design & oversee the general contractor but for a small residence again they're usually way to costly."

Barry also said a LOT of other things. That's why they are "costly". However, given the number of times I have looked into sad eyes and told people that they have been screwed and can't do anything about it because the contractor is within the plans & specs and contract, I would check on prices. Even if you just have a draughting (drafting) service do up a fairly detailed set of plans, it is money well spent.

Please keep us updated on this project.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 07:54 AM

I'mm sticking by my offer to do the plan and drawiongs for free...

No, I'm not an archietect but I studied it in college before changing majors and I've redone every house I've owned and have done plans for other folks...

... plus, since retiring (haha) 2 1/2 years ago it's what I've been doing...

But, hey, some zoning offices don't like "outsiders" too tough and may hold yer feet to the fire in hiring one of the good old boys...

As for a contrator, Kat, yer going to have tio ask around... Plus, if you see another project going on in yer community where the work site looks clean and organizaed and the work is preceeeding nicely, it's okay to stop and ask who the general contractor is...

And when it comes to paying for work only pay for chunks of work... Like the excavation and footer will be one amount, the framing and roof another, etc...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 10:50 AM

Decide on what you want, what you can afford, and stick to it! The more times you change your mind in progress, the more it's going to cost and the longer it will take.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:08 AM

And raise the original budget by 50% and the scheduled completion time by 100% and you're likely to be about right. Been there. Been done that.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:21 AM

WOW!! THANK YEW, FOLKS!! You are an incredible lot!! Such thorough answers...I really appreciate it.

This will be a slow process, at least to begin with; I am trying to be extra patient. I have one thing I have to wait for, from the IRS, then will, first, look into refinancing as, just in the four years we've been here, we've built up good equity. We bought this place for $63,500. Houses, on our block, which are smaller, less land, and not in nearly as good of shape are now selling for over $100,000 and the prices just keep going up in this valley.(Refinancing is a must, anyway, as the loan we have right now does not allow a insurance clause in which the mortgage would be paid if something happens to one of us.)

Bobert, you are a doll. I will be PMing you. You, too, Barry!

Mets, thanks! Will answer your PM later today. Yes, we will have to live here while it is being done; just no alternative. I am thinking what we might do, in order to have more privacy among family members, is to put the screened porch on the existing back wall, then add the master bath and bedroom on the other side of that, so it would be more like an enclosed central patio type thingy. Does that make any sense? Then the existing wall wouldn't need to come down at all and the roof should be intact, too. As much as I love my fmaily, I like the idea of having a place apart, so to speak, where I can go for peace and quiet.

Thank you, once again, everyone! I will keep you posted and please know how much your help means.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:07 PM

Makes sense kat, but before you go too far down that line with the idea, check with your local zoning authorities to determine the setback requirements of your lot and other zoning requirements too.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:46 AM

Ha,Ha!
"Get an estimate".
All we want is a window replaced, and a builder (who did good work for our neighbour) came, looked, sounded keen, promised estimates,gone away.
Then a long wait (we are patient people), phone calls, more promises, more waiting.
Then all the same with another builder.
8 months on, still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 06:43 PM

Well, it has taken us three months, but I can finally post an update for all of you oh-so-kind people. First, thank you very much for all of the help.

Now, what have we done? Well, someone mentioned that a better use of our equity would be to buy another house and have equity building in both at the same time. This made a lot of sense, financially, so...today we signed closing papers on a really neat circa 1900 house only four doors down from us! It needs a lot of elbow grease as it was a repo and had been empty since last summer, but most of it is just cleaning and cosmetic work. Our dau. and grandson will move in when it is ready. I am glad they will be so close and that we will all get back some privacy and space!

The plan is, in a couple of years, we sell it to her, then get back our downpayment and some equity, what she doesn't earn in sweat, then we will most likey, finally, add on a master bedroom and bathroom UNLESS Rog talks me into an RV to go visit Mudcatters when he retires, then all bets are off!

Anyway, it's been a long, frustrating and exciting time and we are all breathing a big sigh of relief it is done and over, well the buying part at least. We got a good deal, too!!

Thanks, again!!

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 06:02 AM

Great news! Congrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 09:08 AM

Something done in commercial work that I've never seen done privately is to withhold 10 to 20% of the total cost (as per estimate) until the problems on the "punch list" have been corrected.

And be CERTAIN of what is to be done -- specify, specify, specify! Be sure that you specify "3/4 inch exterior grade plywood with both sides good" if that is what is needed and wanted.

I'd even suggest writing up a Request For Proposal (RFP). At the very least put down in writing what you'd like to see done -- this sort of project is too, too, expensive to be indecisve or vague about.

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 10:16 AM

IF you do go back to the add-on plan, go with the drawings and make sure you understand what they show; it is a helluva lot cheaper to change a drawing than it is to tear out work done wrong.

The biggest, hardest part is specification.

SOmetimes you get a subcontractor not being given all the specs he needs or ignoring some -- we are having to stop work on a bathroom right now because the plumber situated a valve right int he middle of a designed line of tile, not thinking about the tile work. Very often the communications between different participants is slipshod as hell so you gotta ride herd and keep sharp eyeballs for "little alterations" that mess up the overall picture.

Good project management is indeed an ulcerous art.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Adding on to home-questions to ask
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 12:43 PM

I came onto this thread after the main discussion, and have a couple of remarks.

Barry: please use a few paragraph breaks next time!

Kat, I did exactly what you were asking about, but I had the advantage of knowing a fellow, a man who did several contracting jobs for a friend of mine. I was so impressed with his work that when I got ready to go house shopping I called him and asked if he would look at any I was considering if I thought I'd like to buy it and make some changes. It took a little negotiating, and at first I paid him a flat fee to cover gas and an hour's time when he came over, but he figured out quickly that I was serious, and when I found the house I wanted he was a huge help from the very beginning.

I sat down with a little CAD program (3D Home Architect) and worked out how I might possibly want the layout of the space in the existing garage to look when we converted it to rooms. He was a huge help as I roughed it out and he pointed out existing elements for consideration--the placement of a window, of the pulldown stairs to the attic, etc.

We worked with the city in getting all of our permits and calling for inspections. And because I was converting the garage and planned to build a new one, we ended up doing both things at once. The city didn't want the one garage converted and then my pooping out and not building the new one (the code says there must be covered parking for at least two vehicles). Made for a little juggling, but we were green tags all the way through.

Rob knew various sub-contractors he'd worked with and he would get bids on jobs (roofing the new garage, putting insulation in the attic in the house, putting in two new heat pumps to replace an old almost dead air conditioner), electricians, and concrete for the new garage and extended driveway. I made the decisions to go with his folks or not, and as I saw that his folks were good I was comfortable in going with the ones he recommended. I gave him X amount of cash, and as he drew it down I gave him more. I have all of the papers showing all of the expenses. I was working at home a lot those days (telecommuting) and regularly he would come and say "I need something from Home Depot, and I can go get it, but if I stay here and work and YOU go get it, I can finish this faster and it will cost you less." And most of the time that worked fine for me also. We'd be working to finish something before a rain storm or other event halted our work. There were a couple of times when he had to stop work for a few days because he had another contract and was overseeing painters, but that was okay, and usually his folks working at my place could keep doing something they'd been fully briefed on.

The most expensive of his contractors was the electrician, and I had several people offer bids and went with his guys because they cost the same as the other and I figured they'd be good because they were all friends. Rob doesn't suffer fools gladly, a good feature in a contractor. The moment you touch a remodeling project you have to bring the electrical up to code. I had to pull the breaker box and go from 150 amp to 225, and raise the weatherhead (the thing that the wires run to from the pole out behind the house) and put in a few gfci receptacles and smoke detector in the office/bedroom I hadn't initially planned for. These were code but they also make a lot of sense. As contractors but also nice human beings they were very thoughtful, and would ask me if I thought I'd like this or that or the other thing regarding switch placement or the centering of lights over counters, etc. They understand that tweaking has to happen in a plan and better to ask before something is rendered than find out later that it isn't really what you want.

There were times when Rob thought of things that we hadn't discussed and made the executive decision to go ahead if I wasn't there, because they were small and the opportunity was present (concrete truck was there now, for example) that were exactly the right move and I'm so glad he was thoughtful in what he was doing. Adjacent to the house in back he put in a short concrete sidewalk from my patio to the newly-extended driveway, and a step into the house at the new side door, because he realized we would need them and it was a small thing to do if it was done right then.

I realize I was extremely fortunate in my choice of contractor, and it all boiled down to choosing someone whose work I'd seen and admired over the years. Now that you've put the matter off for a while, you have the best opportunity to choose a contractor for the future. As people get work done around you, go take a look, talk the the homeowner and find out how happy they are with the work, talk to the contractor, and get a business card from them. Keeping this in the back of your mind means that when the time comes it may be a simple matter to start the ball rolling.

SRS