BS: Animal Terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:49 PM

1 blender
1 cat
1 tray of ice cubes
1 tumbler of Vodka
Blend on high for 50 seconds.

Makes Catatonic for four.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:49 PM

Yeah. LOL! I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:35 PM

Of course you've seen this.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:46 PM

No! Say it isn't so! (*sob*) Another hero has fallen in the long, but unremitting struggle which shall finally end with cats achieving total victory and running everything and doing exactly what they want ALL the time...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:42 PM

Just proves that pride goeth before the fall--I think he finally had to be euthanized as a menace to society.

J.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM

Harry represents a long and proud feline tradition that has not been affected in the least by globalization...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:34 PM

I once lived with an animal terrorist--a big psychotic cat named Harry who would lurk on top of the refrigerator, waiting to pounce--claws extended, teeth biting. He could trash a whole room in 15 seconds flat when he really got worked up, and really was known to do some serious damage to humanoids. Finally told the cat and his mistress they had to move on.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM

It ain't easy...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM

Mine doesn't either, LH. At least not until I go pick him up and carry him away from the front window and pet him till he calms down.

Hey, wait! I'm probably reinforcing his behaviour.

Whattaya gonna do?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

We need you HERE, Cluin! These dogs will not shut up no matter who tells them to. ;-)

As for the cats...pfui! It's a tempest in a teapot. Tom Sawyer managed to survive and grow up unmaimed and happy in the company of clawed house cats, and so did I. Mark Twain would laugh at the ridiculous stiff people worry about nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:11 PM

Domestic cats and dogs wouldn't exist today without the alterations arrogant mankind has impinged on them through breeding, confinement, association, etc. Talk about closing the barn door if you wish, but the horse left a long time ago. If a cat is going to live in my house, with furniture and drapes and my thigh and little kids around who don't know not to "ask for it", I will have them declawed. The dog will learn to go outside to pee and poo and shut up when I tell him to.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:18 PM

Bill Caddick once wrote a song about somebody who hanged a pig. Apparently they used to try animals who had done bad things and then hang them.

never happened up my street.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM

"How long after invading can a species still be said to NOT be native?"

That's strictly matter of opinion, and there's no way of proving who has the final opinion on it.

As regards human beings, my opinion is that you're automatically native to any area of land you happen to be born on. People are people, and they're all native to the land they are born upon.

As regards introduced animal species, imported insects, plants, etc...well, that's a bit trickier. You have to consider how they'll react with the local flora and fauna.

People did no favors to Hawaii, for example, when they brought dogs, cats, pigs, rats, mongooses, and mosquitos...all of which proved disastrous and reproduced uncontrollably. They did no favors to Australia either when they introduced rabbits.

But who ever thought ahead about it back in those days? They only found out afterward.

Raptor, you're welcome. I just expanded the borders of the topic a little, didn't I?

It's true that an adult cat does not remember having its claws removed in infancy. Neither does a human being remember its fingernails and its sexual parts being removed in infancy. Maybe we should start doing that too, and keep people indoors all the time where they won't kill things. Think how the natural environment would benefit as time went by...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 11:35 AM

"Idiot troll me arse!"
No no no... not you Gervase...

"Is the whole claw actually removed?"
Yes... the common practice is front claws only...

"How does it affect the cat's ability to climb, and its general behaviour"
If you do it when they're kittens (The same time you spay 'em) they'll grow up never knowing the difference....   I've seen declawed cats that can climb like fkn squirrels... And as far as scratching behaviour goes, that has more to do with scent marking, and a declawed cat will still do it... only they won't wreck the sofa while they're at it....

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:53 AM

Idiot troll me arse!
It's just that, as a Brit, I've never heard of such a thing, and would imagine that most vets this side of the pond would refuse to carry out such a procedure.
At the moment we have a law going through which will make it illegal to dock dogs' tails, so cat declawing would be right out of order, I would think.
Is the whole claw actually removed? Front and hind legs? How does it affect the cat's ability to climb, and its general behaviour (given that scratching is such a part of a cat's make-up)?
If pulling out cats' claws is the norm, what would be the reaction to someone wanting to remove or file the teeth from dogs in case they bite?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:39 AM

"Do americans really remove the claws from their cats?"
Americans are not the only ones....

Raptor... don't feed the idiot troll...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Raptor
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:27 AM

Little Hawk this thread was going good untill you had to bring up the wierd things you do with your plastic whatnot.
Now I feel sick
Thanks a hell of a lot!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:30 AM

...and, if work carried out on animals really has no relevance to humans, why exactly are we worrying about Avian Flu?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:23 AM

To move away from cats (Do americans really remove the claws from their cats? Please tell me this is some sort of ironic joke?!) and back to animal rights in general.

smiler seems to have toddled off again, but I'd be interested to see his/her reaction to

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:18 PM

The winners write the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM

so....   How long after invading can a species still be said to NOT be native?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:12 PM

AND 100 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:11 PM

I am somewhat concerned about SOME of the Animal Rights people - Which animals rights are they worrying about when they break open a Mink Farm and release several hundred SERIOUS Killers into the local habitat ? Or as happened a month or so back when Four Hundred Wild Boars on a farm were released into the Endlish Countryside ?
And how the HELL is removing an old ladies body from her grave going to help Animals ??

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:38 PM

I 'm convinced that people like Bunnahabhain, who catagorise protesters as "bad, mad and dangerous to know", are more worried about the effectiveness of the protests, than the future of research or the welfare of animals.

Why, thank you Ake. Actually, I'm more worried that these terrorists will start killing people directly. They're already killing people indirectly through the difficulties they are causing for researchers.

And they will drive the research to somewhere less regulated. The final result would be more people and more animals suffering and dying. How does that do anyone any good?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:07 PM

Cat doesn't taste bad at all, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:49 PM

Let your kitty run free if you want.

When he doesn't come home, go check the menu at the local Manchu Wok.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:00 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth twice there, Clinton.

Like he said, Raptor, WE are not natural here. Look at all the weird stuff you and I do on a daily basis with our cars, our TVs, our microwaves, our ovens, our headphones, our plastic whatnots, our air conditioners, our electric dryers, our rubber-soled footwear, our stereos, all our silly stuff. Almost NONE of it is natural. And you want to save the natural world by keeping cats indoors?????

Gimme a fucking break. LOL! Where is a poor cat to go anymore when he's "not natural here"?   He's not natural inside the house either. Poor cat. We should immediately ship all domestic cats back to wherever they are "natural", wherever the hell that is...

I don't think anyone knows where it is anymore. Well, I do. It's outside in the fresh air, that's where.

This BS isn't debatable in Trinidad. You know why? They don't have sealed glass on most of the windows there, they have lots of openings so the fresh outside air can blow in and out of the building and keep things healthy. It is therefore virtually impossible to keep a cat indoors in Trinidad unless you confine it permanently to a windowless, locked room. Good for Trinidad!

You and I are living in a North American cultural fishbowl, Raptor, in which the fish take it all so seriously only because they are unaware it's just one more stupid arbitrary fishbowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:06 PM

Bartender... Art needs his bill....

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:56 PM

So, maybe we should be keeping each other inside all the time too eh?
LOL
(Honestly, not a bad idea, as it could be applied to some)

Here's yet antoher tangent...
How long after invading can a species still be said to NOT be native?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:54 PM

I think it's high time we use actual animals (other than humans) as suicide terrorists! For instance: Place bombs inside male animals of the bovine species.

I do understand that some of you will feel I am completely off the wall suggesting this. I also know that others will see the suggestion as totally abominable! (But it is really only a-bomb-in-a-bull!!)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:53 PM

Good Point

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:34 PM

"So they are not Natural Here!"

Ya... but then again, neither are we...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:18 PM

Little Hawk You my friend are the one who's dense. The house cats aren't NATIVE to this country.
So they are not Natural Here!

Penquins are not native in Saskatuan so they are not natural there. although there are different spiecies of birds that live there.

Mabey if you'd have gone to science class a little more and didn't watch so much Star Trek...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:37 PM

"but don't get upset by other peoples opinions"

That's all some people have to get them through the day

Personally, I like to stand back and laugh at them

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM

Well said little Hawk!

We Have a little Indian GP who is tormented by octogenarians,who either can't run five miles before breakfast or can only manage three erections a night.
The poor wee man is driven to distraction by these self obsessed wrinklies, who are taking up space in his surgery which could be taken by folk who were really ill.

He's started telling them,"Whats matter with you? ...you want to live forever?!!"

Some of us do want do live forever, however useless and unsatisfactory our lives have become, and we don't care how we acheive that impossible dream.

The use of disposable objects like animals is just one of the ways....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:49 PM

"if you need life saving treatment will you refuse it because it has been tested on animals?"

Heh! Well...that's not the first thing I would have on my mind to ask the medical staff about in such a situation...

Quite apart from that...

Life will never be perfect. Those who can't accept that life is imperfect can always be relied upon to pass a few hundred more restrictive laws that limit somebody else's freedom so THEY can feel "safe". The real truth is, they will never feel safe! It isn't within their psychological grasp to feel safe. It doesn't match their paranoid outlook. We have all been mentally and culturally f*cked by lawyers and insecure, demanding people who never feel "safe". We are living in an Orwellian maze of legalisitic idiocy, and it was crafted mainly to benefit the legal profession and the big business community, who are the only people who can really afford to utilize the legal profession to their advantage.

Just wait. More laws are coming. And they will NOT make your life any safer. They will just smother it a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM

I'd only accept it if it HAD been tested on animals....

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Crystal
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:08 AM

Hi Smiler,
I DON'T work with animals. I'm a cell researcher, the institution which I work at dosn't even have a licence to do animal experiments. You call me evil, but if you wish to support the work of those who cause unnessecerry suffering to people and animals by means of bombs, threats and general nastyness fine, but I can call you evil too if I wish. Hell it is a free internet, you are free to say what you want, but don't get upset by other peoples opinions.

BTW hypothetical question; if you need life saving treatment will you refuse it because it has been tested on animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:31 AM

You make a convincing argument there, Stilly.

I expect that people's opinions on this are often influenced by their childhood experiences. We always lived in the country when I was a kid, and we always had outside cats, as our ancestors had done before us, so the whole idea of the outside cat is one I simply take for granted. It doesn't seem right to me to incarcerate a cat indoors for its entire life. It's so....icky sort of control freak sounding...just to me, you understand, because of my personal background.

That basically is why I like the idea of letting cats go outside. I'm used to it. I am well aware that they kill a lot of small animals. I accept the fact that they do as a basic fact of life, and I doubt that cats are at all likely to exterminate any species of bird in North America.

I presently own no cat, however, so put your mind at rest. I am in no way imperilling the many birds that happily exist in the 10 acres or more of forest behind this house. A few of our neighbours have roaming cats, and I couldn't care less whether or not they did.

You should see Trinidad! (maybe you have...) Not many cats to be seen, only a few...but...there are literally hundreds of thousands of roaming dogs...all over the place, totally free to wander where they wish. And the amazing thing is, it doesn't seem to bother people a bit. The dogs and the people and everything else coexist just fine. I like the Trinidad dogs. They call them "pothounds". Most of them sort of live somewhere...that is, they hang around a certain house or neighborhood in a fairly predictable manner.

Smaller, less potentially dangerous dogs wandered around outside freely in the small towns I lived in in the 50's. No one cared. We kids knew those dogs by name ("King", "Baron", "Perky", "Frisky"), and sometimes the dogs tagged along with us when we played in the vacant lots, just like Spanky and the Little Rascals in those old films. God, it was great. Well, you sure as hell don't see that anymore in North America now, because EVERYTHING has a restrictive rule of law applied to it now! I love freedom, and I am not impressed by what happens when a society gets too overdeveloped and way too overlegislated.

What people think is either "okay" or "unacceptable" varies wildly from one culture to another...and it's mostly dependent on nothing more that what they are already used to and think is "normal". It's largely arbitrary, in other words.

This debate about inside and outside cats didn't exist in the world I grew up in.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:08 AM

I have to disagree, Little Hawk. There is evidence that cats do a lot of damage to the wild bird population.

From the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Cats

In the fall of 1990, a study on the effects of cats on wildlife was reported in the scientific and mass media. Researchers estimated that house cats and feral cats are responsible for killing approximately 78 million small mammals and birds annually in the United Kingdom.

Feline predation is not "natural." Millions of backyard birds and other animals are slaughtered by cats each year. Cats are a serious threat to fledglings, birds roosting at night and birds while they're on the nest, at the feeder and using a bird bath.

If you are unwilling to eliminate free-roaming cats, do not attract birds to your yard by putting out feeders, nest boxes and baths. Eliminating free-roaming cats is the best way you can "protect" your backyard birds from cat predation.

Responsible pet owners keep their cats indoors. Most local jurisdictions have enforceable leash laws for cats and dogs. Contact your local humane society for help.

Here's a Google search on the topic.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM

I wasn't running down cat owners, gnu (though I'm dubious on the idea of "training" a cat). Just wondering about the legal dichotomy between dog owners' and cat owners' responsibilities.

And my girlfriend's little Cairn Terrier would make short work of any rat it happened upon as well. We still don't let her run free.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:50 PM

You're not a lunatic, Raptor...you're just a little dense, that's all. ;-) Cats ARE natural creatures. The moment they step into nature they become natural. Doesn't much matter where they are. In North America we have lynxes, bobcats, and pumas. In more ancient times we had sabre-tooth tigers and other cats. Nature changes as time goes by. Our present domestic cats are possibly descendents of small wild felines that were domesticated by the Egyptians, but it may go back farther than that. Should I assume you only believe in letting them go outdoors in Egypt?

I'll tell you what kills too many birds in North America. Man's pollution and man's destruction of wild habitat kills too many birds. To blame it on domestic cats is just plain silly. The bird population is not going to be decimated by domestic cats catching birds in the back yard.

Oh...Clinton... Clinton? Hey, old buddy, got somethin' just for you here...

A big salute to a guy who has earned it many times over...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:30 PM

you'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

Who is "you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:39 PM

I'm not the least bit concerned about the local wildlife that happens into my yard. The bird feeder is on a post with a metal stovepipe around it so the cat (and squirrels) can't reach the birds or the food. My cat stays well away from the raccoons and the the occasional skunk. The squirrels are much faster than the cat. I'm glad she kills the mice and shrews or I would have a rodent problem like many of my neighbors.

We're happy and I haven't heard any complaints from the neighbors. In fact, they all know the cat because she greets them at the gate.

But this is thread drift. The original post is complaining about militant animal rights activists. Listening to your concern about a pet who is happy and healthy, makes me wonder how you feel about using animals for testing purposes. Perhaps you should be directing your concerns to that practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:06 PM

"you're going to allow that animal free reign regarding the local pet, bird, and wildlife population "

A declawed cat is JUST as capable of hunting/killing as a cat with claws...

If you're concerned about the local 'wildlife' keep yer frigg'n cat indoors...   It sure won't 'hurt' the cat

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:49 PM

Rap - My statements may seem contradictory but they aren't. My cat is a pet. I prefer wild anmimals not pets but since I have a pet, I prefer to let her outside (except at night). The garden provides her with enough adventure that she rarely leaves my property, if at all. She doesn't bother anyone that I know of.

Cluin - I'm sorry the little boy lost his eye but surely that is a rare circumstance. Its not enough to make me declaw my cat, especially since I have no little ones at home. I wouldn't allow the cat on the bed, anyway, so its hardly a big risk.

BTW - If you declaw Little Hawk, can I have the claws for my medicine bag?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:47 PM

I was all set to post this when the 'Cat went down. gnu touches on much of what I was addressing and saved to post now.

It's way too late to start pretending that if we have pets that we kick out in the yard with or without shots that we're just allowing them to experience the joy of being "wild." We know too much about the science of animal behavior. A good life for a pet doesn't require unlimited unaccompanied "wildness." If you're a pet owner, then it is your responsibility to take care of that animal, to confine them if necessary to prevent scaring or hurting people or other animals, and to keep them out of other people's yards and from freely ranging public spaces. DON'T ADOPT ANIMALS IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO GO TO THAT EXPENSE AND TROUBLE. Neither dogs as they appear now, nor domestic house cats, were here prior to colonization, they're not native "wild" species. The North American wild dogs that were domesticated by indigenous people weren't "pets," they were as likely to end up in the soup pot as sleeping on someones pallet at night. (Before someone starts down that path--the amplification of human traits in animals in native stories was not as the result of personification but a metaphorical approach to teaching through storytelling.)

Humans make the rules, humans have the language and the standing in the courts, humans bear the responsibility for their pets. Pets may seem like other-than-human people, but it is this failure to understand the natures of cats and dogs that gets so many pet owners into trouble. If you're going to have pets then take the time to work with them and train them and understand the limitations of keeping animals in your home and on your property. In the U.S. at least there is an epidemic of pet overpopulation and a huge number of unwanted pets are euthanized every day, coming from homes that can't control their animals. Having a pet is on a par with having children--if you're going to do it, you should be ready for it. (Unfortunately, it is also on a par with having children in that there are people who are criminally incompetent who have no business being pet owners or parents who are popping out puppies and kittens and babies like clockwork).

Whether or not you declaw your cat is up to you and is based on your decisions regarding the health and comfort of the family and the pets living there. Leaving a cat's claws on so it can defend itself outside means you're going to allow that animal free reign regarding the local pet, bird, and wildlife population (and by the way, they defend themselves perfectly well with their back claws, so removing the front claws spares the furniture but leaves the animal protected). Spaying and neutering is essential to keeping pets who are more comfortable, less likely to fight, and more even-tempered. If an individual adopts a pet and chooses not to neuter, don't give me the crap that they're allowing the animal some sort of autonomy. Pets are property, they AREN'T autonomous creatures in the eyes of the law, and not getting them fixed is an act of laziness on the part of the pet owner, not an act of liberation for the pet.

Can't afford the shots and the occasional veterinary care? Then you need to explore the services in your community that subsidize these things. Your local Humane Society has low-cost programs to spay and neuter pets, and I see signs several times a year for low-cost shot clinics for cats and dogs.

Working animals are not included in this rant of mine--there is an entirely different dynamic going on in that world.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:34 PM

Cluin... cats eat rats. Now... well trained and cared for cats do no shit on other peoples' property nor piss on their laundry. Nor do they fuck in your trees.

Unfortunately, the law does not require people to be trained for ownership of cats OR dogs. Such would never eliminate all problems, but would go a long way to keeping problems to a minimum. From there, I am sure the odd problem could be managed.

Most problem cats are wild. Fact is, you ain't gonna see them... on accounta they are wild.

I did have a cat once who was crapping in my neighbours flower bed. Once I was told, it only took me three days to train it not to do so.

The cats are not the problem. Ignorant owners are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Terrorists
From: GUEST,Bobby
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:20 PM

So Little Hawk is just like George W Bush.

No balls!